Water treating to get that Bright hop flavor/aroma

[brandonlovesbeer]

I want that bright/crisp hop flavor and aroma. Such as is in Stone Enjoy By.
But I keep getting this muddled dank-ish character.

What can I do to the water to get this?

Thanks

 

[Yooper]

Often dank and muddy hops are due to oxidation, and not the water.

Water is important, but for bright hops flavor, protecting the beer from oxidation is really the key.

For water, are you starting with RO water? Measuring mash pH?

A mash pH of 5.3 or so, along with calcium of 50-100 ppm and sulfate of 150-300 (I like the lower end, 150 ppm, for most of mine but others go much higher) and "clean" hops is a good place to start.

 

[boasist]

Watching as I'm after the same.

So RO is the key?

 

[brick_haus]

I don't think Yooper means RO water is the key. More like proper water chemistry is key. Her last paragraph explains it.
Also, some hops are dank no matter the water. I make a IIPA with Citra/Mosaic and its a bit dank. But we love it!

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

I don't use RO.
Do you mean that the beer was oxidated or the the hops are oxidated. Because the hops are vacuum sealed until I throw them in.

I have always been very careful about oxidation of my finished beer.
I've just never been able to get that good bright hopped character.

 

[techprof]

Great question as I am planning on brewing an IPA, but am not sure what character higher sulfate provides other than the crispness? What would a 300 ppm sulfate taste like compared to 150ppm, assuming same grain bill?

 

[helibrewer]

When are you adding hops in your process? How long are you dry hopping?

 

[sarhubs]

Just my opinion, but I believe when you are hopping plays just as important a role as water characteristics, and may be even more important. Try adding your last addition hops after your wort cools to 180 degrees and let them steep for at least 10 minutes before you continue chilling.

If you are dry hopping wait until a day after krausen is fully finished. Let your dry hops go at least 5 days before moving the beer off the dregs.

If you follow these steps you will see an improvement in finished hop character.

 

[BeerWard]

I live and brew in Greenville. The water here is excellent. I only add some calcium chloride to the mash water.
Agree with late hopping and you can achieve excellent results

 

[toddk63]

Watching as I'm after the same.

So RO is the key?

I have Houston tap water. Medium hardness, high bicarbonate. I can deal with the bicarb with acid, but I find a 50/50 mix with RO adds a softness I cannot achieve otherwise

 

[Beer-lord]

Just my opinion, but I believe when you are hopping plays just as important a role as water characteristics, and may be even more important. Try adding your last addition hops after your wort cools to 180 degrees and let them steep for at least 10 minutes before you continue chilling.

If you are dry hopping wait until a day after krausen is fully finished. Let your dry hops go at least 5 days before moving the beer off the dregs.

If you follow these steps you will see an improvement in finished hop character.

Last year, besides switching to RO water, I started doing the above to my IPA's and even Pales and when I fill a glass from the kegerator, people across the room can many times smell the hop aroma.
I will only add to the above that also the type of hops used play a role as well.

 

[hopbrad]

I want that bright/crisp hop flavor and aroma. Such as is in Stone Enjoy By.
But I keep getting this muddled dank-ish character.

What can I do to the water to get this?

Thanks

+1 with the above water comments. I like around the same sulfate to chloride level for most of my hoppy pale beers. 150+- seems to be a good range for my liking. favoring sulfate for a west coast and chloride for a NE.

do you keg? To me, that was the number 1 difference in obtaining that desired fresh hoppiness in my beers. The ability to purge a keg with co2 before and after, and you can do closed transfers if you want too.

Yeast also plays an important role and can really compliment or compete with what you want. Ive been playing around with alot of the english strains of late. 1318, conan, 007(i think stone uses), some newer strains...hothead, 644. and an old standard, s-05.
644 didnt thrill me. hothead was over the top fruity/berry at 80-90F but a rad option for people that can't temp control(still experimenting with lower temps on hothead).
007 was hard to explain, in my opinion highlighted the hops the least but also doesnt compete or get in the way like hothead(berry) or conan(apricot/peach/stone fruit). i love the fast turnaround and it produces very great beers.
1318 is just awesome for that juicy bright character. but take forever for the krausen to drop and conan is a solid 2nd.

try double dry hopping too, around day 2-3 then again for 2-3 days once fermentation is over.

Alot of this in my opinion is a waste if your bottle conditioning. you'll still produce a good beer but kegging with produce outstanding hoppy beers.

 

[sunny_jim]

There is more than the water, though it does matter. I am not sure what you mean by 'dank'. If than means sulfidy or sewer like then the water source or contamination along the way could be an issue. Have you tasted the water? Have you boiled the water and tasted it as it cools. Questions about how long is your boil, how long do hops remain in contact with wort, what is the pH? How clean are your lines and vessels? How often do you CIP and how do you measure cleanliness are all contributors. What is the pH drop in mashing and what is the mashing profile can be contributors. What is the taste of the wort before hopping? are you using malt extracts? hop extracts? If you can describe dank a little better it could point to something. Regards
David Kapral

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

I live and brew in Greenville. The water here is excellent. I only add some calcium chloride to the mash water.
Agree with late hopping and you can achieve excellent results

Greenville in which state? I'm in Easley SC. I used to live in Simpsonville.
And yes. The water was very good.

But now I'm in Easley (Powdersville). The water here is horrible. They treat it with chloramine so it ALWAYS tastes like chlorine. Sometimes when I turn the bath on I have to leave the room.

I'm brewing today and I am using a PÜR faucet filter. And using the water from that. It makes a huge difference in taste. Let's see if this helps.

I'll let you know the results.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

But now I'm in Easley (Powdersville). The water here is horrible. They treat it with chloramine so it ALWAYS tastes like chlorine. Sometimes when I turn the bath on I have to leave the room.

I'm brewing today and I am using a PÜR faucet filter. And using the water from that. It makes a huge difference in taste. Let's see if this helps.

If the main problem with your water is chloramine, look into campden tablets.

But if your water is that bad [i.e. highly mineral in addition to chloramine], I recommend RO and then building to the profile you want.

Where I live, I can't stand the water so I use RO. People from my HB club a few towns over merely filter and theirs is fine. So there can be quite a bit of difference depending on your water source, even in close proximity.

I was brewing almost 9 years before I started doing RO. I had most of my processes down and was producing good beer. I *immediately* saw a noticeable improvement at that point. My water was definitely limiting me, and going to RO made my beers much more bright and crisp.

 

[techprof]

I agree that RO/distilled is necessary especially when brewing lighter styles AND the tap water has high RA. The water in my area, Kendall county IL, is high in calcium and alkalinity. I could make a decent dark beer, but anything hop forward always had an astringent quality.

I have gone the distilled water and using mineral additions to tailor water to beer style which has made all the difference.

Now that I have my water test kit I am l planning on using a mix of tap water and distilled and using additions as needed.

 

[ad103458]

Hello. Greenville NC or SC

 

[AcreBrewer]

I'm going to be brewing a clone of Reciprocal an All Australian double dry hop Double IPA (Bissell Brothers) Sunday. The whole water chemistry things is giving me an ice cream headache. Sulfate / chloride ratio, Ph. I've never measured my Ph, I've learned that the grains have an effect on it as well. I have considered using either 100% RO water or a 50/50 mix. But if you use 100% don't you need to add a bunch of salts as it is so pure? If you do a 50/50 mix how do you know where those sulfate / chloride numbers are going to be? I have my town water report to start, but if I mix as I said now those numbers would be thrown off. I absolutely love this new NEIPA style but it is one tricky beer for home brewers.

 

[techprof]

I'm going to be brewing a clone of Reciprocal an All Australian double dry hop Double IPA (Bissell Brothers) Sunday. The whole water chemistry things is giving me an ice cream headache. Sulfate / chloride ratio, Ph. I've never measured my Ph, I've learned that the grains have an effect on it as well. I have considered using either 100% RO water or a 50/50 mix. But if you use 100% don't you need to add a bunch of salts as it is so pure? If you do a 50/50 mix how do you know where those sulfate / chloride numbers are going to be? I have my town water report to start, but if I mix as I said now those numbers would be thrown off. I absolutely love this new NEIPA style but it is one tricky beer for home brewers.

I use the Bru 'N' Water spreadsheet to calculate water profiles and additions, and if your water report includes all necessary levels, then you shouldn't have a problem figuring out the RO/tap water ratio needed for your brew. If you don't mind posting the water report it would help.

 

[goodsuds]

I have had a similar struggle. Here is my method which has helped me greatly.

I live in St. Louis and our water here is very good but it is treated with chloramine. I filter my water very slowly (~1gpm) through an RV filter and add a crushed Camden tablet to my HLT and let it sit for a few minutes. I adjust the chemistry using EZ Water to achieve the profile I want.

For getting a really clean hop bitterness I have switched to using more FWH in most of my beers. I find it does add a different hop flavor as well, but it's subtle. To get that big smack of hop flavor and aroma I will substitute the last additions before flameout for the whirlpool. I throw them in at flameout and stir the kettle gently to not oxidize it, and then I'll add some more as the temp gets closer to 100*F.

Lastly, kegging made a big difference for me. I like to chill and carb the beer and then a day or two before serving I throw a few ounces of hops into a nylon bag with some marbles and tie some floss to it so the lid holds it suspended. Give it 2-3 days and try it and once it's ready pull the hop bag out.

 

[LarMoeCur]

I want that bright/crisp hop flavor and aroma. Such as is in Stone Enjoy By.
But I keep getting this muddled dank-ish character.

What can I do to the water to get this?

Thanks

Water chemistry is just a part in the bright hop character in a beer. Like numerous others have stated, there are quite a few other variables that can affect this as well.

For us to truly point you in the right direction, we need to:

1. know the recipe (mainly the hop schedule).
2. know the age of the hops and how they were stored.
3. your water report.
4. parts of your brewing processes ie. do you use a hop spider? pH at different times? I'm sure I'm missing other things but you get the drift.
5. Bottling/kegging process ie. possible oxidation.

In my opinion water chemistry is the very last thing a brewer should look at tinkering with. If you have all other brewing variables 100% locked in then start dialing in your water. 100% of the water in the US will make beer, 90% doesn't need much if any additions.

If you're100% sure it's your water. I'd start with RO and build up this profile for hoppy beers. Ca-110ppm, Mg-18ppm, Na-17ppm, SO4- 350ppm, Cl-50ppm (Tasty McDole's water profile). I've used it for years on all my hop forward beers and it works well. There are plenty of spreadsheets and programs to figure out what additions you will need. And google is your friend!

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I'm going to be brewing a clone of Reciprocal an All Australian double dry hop Double IPA (Bissell Brothers) Sunday. The whole water chemistry things is giving me an ice cream headache. Sulfate / chloride ratio, Ph. I've never measured my Ph, I've learned that the grains have an effect on it as well. I have considered using either 100% RO water or a 50/50 mix. But if you use 100% don't you need to add a bunch of salts as it is so pure? If you do a 50/50 mix how do you know where those sulfate / chloride numbers are going to be? I have my town water report to start, but if I mix as I said now those numbers would be thrown off. I absolutely love this new NEIPA style but it is one tricky beer for home brewers.

It's easier than you think. The problem is that if your water sucks, it still just sucks less to go 50/50. Going 100% RO doesn't require that you add a "bunch" of salts... A few grams of a couple common ones (and maybe 1/4 tsp lactic acid) and you're good to go.

There are easy solutions to calculating what you need. I use Bru'n'water, but there are other solutions out there.

 

[BeerWard]

Greenville in which state? I'm in Easley SC. I used to live in Simpsonville.
And yes. The water was very good.

But now I'm in Easley (Powdersville). The water here is horrible. They treat it with chloramine so it ALWAYS tastes like chlorine. Sometimes when I turn the bath on I have to leave the room.

I'm brewing today and I am using a PÜR faucet filter. And using the water from that. It makes a huge difference in taste. Let's see if this helps.

I'll let you know the results.

Greenville,SC. There are small chloramines and I use campden tablets. I have had good results with my brewing. I also review water quality reports as part of my job, so can confirm Greenville, SC is excellent. My parents live in Anderson county and their water is much different. Give the campden tabs a try or try spring water or RO.

 

[Trillium]

At the Grand Rapids conference I went to the water treatment seminar by John Palmer. They severed two pale ales made with the exact same recipe. One was made with just tap water which had a high RA and the other was made with the water adjusted with the addition of Calcium Sulphate to bring the Sulphate to 230 ppm and Latic acid to bring the RA down to -35. When I tasted the two beers I was amazed at the difference. I could not believe they were the same recipe. The untreated was one dimensional, kind of muddled, and with a lingering bitterness. Just ok but nothing great. The treated beer was nice and crisp, the flavours all seemed more defined, and the bitterness did not linger.

This was a game changer. I have been treating the water for all my beers since, and they have gone from good to great.

So what can you do?
1) Buy the Water Book.
2) download Martin Burgard's water spreadsheet
3) adjust your water to suit the style of beer

 

[Horseflesh]

The whole water chemistry things is giving me an ice cream headache.

I put off learning about it and regret the delay. Fiddling with pH and minerals has made a significant improvement in my beer. A tool like Bru'n Water can do all the math for you, but it does take some effort to learn how to use it.