Water test feedback please!

[kingschiff]

I've been brewing with distilled water and adjusting. I knew my water was hard so never even bothered brewing with it. Finally sent it off to Ward just to see.

Any comments are appreciated. To me most of the minerals look OK as a base.
the hardness is what i'm not so sure about. All input is appreciated, thanks!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I would brew with that. Knock out alkalinity with acid in accordance with the demands of the grist/recipe. Add CaCl2.2H2O to boost Ca++ and Cl- ions. Bring Ca++ to or above 50 ppm, and perhaps up to 100 ppm. Then good to go.

BTW, your SO4 is actually 27 ppm. The report is indicating the ppm fraction of it which is 'S' alone. That it is reported as SO4-S rather than SO4 tells us this tidbit of information.

If it is city water, you may also need to treat for chlorine or chloramines.

 

[kingschiff]

I would brew with that. Knock out alkalinity with acid in accordance with the demands of the grist/recipe. Add CaCl2.2H2O to boost Ca++ and Cl- ions. Bring Ca++ above 50 ppm, and perhaps up to 100 ppm. Then good to go.

BTW, your SO4 is actually 27 ppm. The report is indicating the ppm fraction of it which is 'S' alone. That it is reported as SO4-S rather than SO4 tells us this tidbit of information.

If it is city water, you may also need to treat for chlorine or chloramines.

1) i brewed with the water once before and the flavor was not favorable at all. I don't think I did any salt additions though.
2) Often when my water dries, it leaves white residue. will one of the things you mentioned combat this?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

2) Often when my water dries, it leaves white residue. will one of the things you mentioned combat this?

That's due to the total hardness (also in some circles called general hardness). Which is due to Ca++ and Mg++ ions. The things I mentioned will not change that.

Total Hardness = (2.5 * Ca) + (4.12 * Mg)

This plus $3.50 will (perhaps) buy you a cup of coffee.

 

[SEndorf]

What Silver said...
I'd brew with that.
Hardness isn't a problem, but your water isn't really that hard.
I'd plug your water profile into Bru'n water and go from there.

 

[kingschiff]

What Silver said...
I'd brew with that.
Hardness isn't a problem, but your water isn't really that hard.
I'd plug your water profile into Bru'n water and go from there.

so you'd go straight from the tap into mash? with some salt additions if needed?

I just worry about that hardness, especially if it leaves staining in my mash tun. But again everyone here probably has more water knowledge than me. I'm just diving into it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Unless you are decoction mashing a Bohemian style Pilsner most brewing water is generally going to be somewhat harder than your water. That's why you would most likely be adding minerals to bump up the total hardness.

Does your community add chlorine and/or chloramines to the water supply? Chlorine is not chloride....

 

[kingschiff]

Unless you are decoction mashing a Bohemian style Pilsner most brewing water is generally going to be somewhat harder than your water. That's why you would most likely be adding minerals to bump up the total hardness.

Does your community add chlorine and/or chloramines to the water supply? Chlorine is not chloride....

I'm not 100% sure if they add chlorine or chloramines. Yes I know chlorine and chloride are 2 different things.

I'd wonder why the one beer I did make with tap water didn't taste good at all... maybe due for one more exbeeriment

 

[kingschiff]

Unless you are decoction mashing a Bohemian style Pilsner most brewing water is generally going to be somewhat harder than your water. That's why you would most likely be adding minerals to bump up the total hardness.

Does your community add chlorine and/or chloramines to the water supply? Chlorine is not chloride....

http://www.mcwa.com/Portals/0/PDF/2015_AWQR_MCWA.pdf

This is from their website, but idk what some of those things are at the bottom.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The water report indicates added chlorine. You will need to add Campden to eliminate it.

 

[kingschiff]

The water report indicates added chlorine. You will need to add Campden to eliminate it.

Would chlorine be part of the reason it tastes so much better through a britta filter?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Would chlorine be part of the reason it tastes so much better through a britta filter?

Does Britta advertise that it completely removes chlorine? If so, then yes!

 

[cire]

so you'd go straight from the tap into mash? with some salt additions if needed?

I just worry about that hardness, especially if it leaves staining in my mash tun. But again everyone here probably has more water knowledge than me. I'm just diving into it.

Over here in UK many brewers prefer hard water. Only that part of the hardness known as alkalinity gives brewers making pale beer problems. That is dealt with by mineral acids which are readily available in homebrew shops here. However, all treatment is dependent upon what styles being brewed and the ingredients they require. While your water isn't ideal for most recipes, a couple of British styles of ale that come to mind which can be brewed using very simple salt additions.

A bitter made with pale malt and say 7.5% dark crystal hopped to about 30 IBU with any half decent bittering hop and a good handful or two of best quality aroma hops a few inutes before flame out. It won't be the best beer you ever brew, but it would be a decent thirst quencher and should look well for the style at about 8 to 10 SRM. For that add 2g of gypsum and half a gram of calcium chloride per gallon of all liquor used.

A stout could be made with an addition of a gram and a half of calcium chloride per gallon of liquor. Pale malt with 10% of dark roasted malts or roast barley with another 10 to 20% flaked barley (maybe some as flaked oats) to give body to a satisfying malty brew. It would comfortably take a good 40 to 50 IBU from almost any bittering hop and not need late hop additions.

If those styles are not to your taste, I'm sure others will offer alternative treatments.

Don't worry about the minor ions listed at the bottom, they shouldn't effect your beer.

Yes, a Britta filter would improve your water, it appears to have much more free chlorine than does mine.

 

[ajdelange]

Over here in UK many brewers prefer hard water. Only that part of the hardness known as alkalinity gives brewers making pale beer problems.

Careful with the terminology. Alkalinity is alkalinity and is a problem for brewers. Calcium (hardness) can ameliorate the effects of alkalinity somewhat by removing some of it if the water be boiled or treated with lime and reacting with malt phosphate to produce hydrogen ions which convert some of the bicarbonate to CO2 gas thus reducing alkalinity. If a brewer have water with alkalinity of 2 mEq/liter and calcium hardness of 2 mEq/L he is said to have 2 mEq/L temporary hardness because potentially 2 mEq of calcium can precipitate 2 mEq of alkalinity (though it never is that effective - in fact probably 1 mEq/L each of calcium and alkalinity would precipitate but note that the remaining 1 mEq/L calcium can cancel a further 1/3.5 mEq/L alkalinity). The Germans would say this man has 2 mEq/L "carbonate hardness". This refers to the alkalinity - not the hardness. He is a little better off than a brewer with 2 mEq/L of alkalinity paired with 1 mEq/L of calcium hardness and 1 mEq/L sodium as 2 mEq/L as potentially the 1 mEq/L calcium can precipitate 1 mEq/L alkalinity though in fact it probably wouldn't precipitate and but he'd still have the 1/3.5 mEq/L alkalinity reducing effect. This brewer is said to have 1 mEq/L temporary hardness and 1 mEq/L permanent hardness but the Germans would still say he has 2 mEq/L Karbonat Hartung (carbonate hardness). A third brewer with 2 mEq/L alkalinity and 2 mEq/L sodium has no hardness and is in the worst shape of the 3 as he has no precipitation potential and no [Ca++]/3.5 alkalinity reduction. As there is no hardness at all in this worst case saying that only the part of the hardness known as alkalinity is the problem makes no sense. I think this confusion comes from calling alkalinity "carbonate hardness". It isn't hardness at all. A more correct statement would be "Alkalinity is a problem for brewers making pale beers. Hardness, in particular calcium hardness, ameliorates this problem somewhat."

 

[cire]

Careful with the terminology. Alkalinity is alkalinity and is a problem for brewers. Calcium (hardness) can ameliorate the effects of alkalinity somewhat by removing some of it if the water be boiled or treated with lime and reacting with malt phosphate to produce hydrogen ions which convert some of the bicarbonate to CO2 gas thus reducing alkalinity. If a brewer have water with alkalinity of 2 mEq/liter and calcium hardness of 2 mEq/L he is said to have 2 mEq/L temporary hardness because potentially 2 mEq of calcium can precipitate 2 mEq of alkalinity (though it never is that effective - in fact probably 1 mEq/L each of calcium and alkalinity would precipitate but note that the remaining 1 mEq/L calcium can cancel a further 1/3.5 mEq/L alkalinity). The Germans would say this man has 2 mEq/L "carbonate hardness". This refers to the alkalinity - not the hardness. He is a little better off than a brewer with 2 mEq/L of alkalinity paired with 1 mEq/L of calcium hardness and 1 mEq/L sodium as 2 mEq/L as potentially the 1 mEq/L calcium can precipitate 1 mEq/L alkalinity though in fact it probably wouldn't precipitate and but he'd still have the 1/3.5 mEq/L alkalinity reducing effect. This brewer is said to have 1 mEq/L temporary hardness and 1 mEq/L permanent hardness but the Germans would still say he has 2 mEq/L Karbonat Hartung (carbonate hardness). A third brewer with 2 mEq/L alkalinity and 2 mEq/L sodium has no hardness and is in the worst shape of the 3 as he has no precipitation potential and no [Ca++]/3.5 alkalinity reduction. As there is no hardness at all in this worst case saying that only the part of the hardness known as alkalinity is the problem makes no sense. I think this confusion comes from calling alkalinity "carbonate hardness". It isn't hardness at all. A more correct statement would be "Alkalinity is a problem for brewers making pale beers. Hardness, in particular calcium hardness, ameliorates this problem somewhat."

Thank you for the lecture. I have brewed for more than 50 years with alkalinity more than double that of the OP. It is not something to fear nor, may I suggest, should its complexity be used to strike fear into others by being pedantic at the first opportunity. My skin is thick enough and hope the OP either followed fully what you wrote or is not put off using his water making what it will do well with simple treatment.

 

[kingschiff]

The water report indicates added chlorine. You will need to add Campden to eliminate it.

are you able to tell how much chlorine is in my water?

 

[ajdelange]

Thank you for the lecture.

You are most welcome!

I have brewed for more than 50 years with alkalinity more than double that of the OP.

Congratulations! On the 50 yrs - not the alkalinity.

It is not something to fear nor, may I suggest, should its complexity

Complexity? It's a little confusing perhaps when misleading terminology is used but that's why we try to clarify. Fear? No. It is something that brewers do need to be able to manage, though, and that requires some understanding

be used to strike fear into others by being pedantic at the first opportunity.

WTF? Over.

My skin is thick enough and hope the OP either followed fully what you wrote.

Well I hope he, and anyone else, who read No. 14, including you, is now clear that it is alkalinity (which is not part of hardness) that represents a potential problem. I can't see how the thickness of your skin has any relevance. We are not talking strong alkali here by any means - just bicarbonate. Even in a high alkalinity water with 0 hardness at pH within the WHO recommended bounds we are still talking mostly sodium bicarbonate though there will be some sodium carbonate present.[/QUOTE]

 

[ajdelange]

are you able to tell how much chlorine is in my water?

According to the report it ranges from 0.7 to 1.5 mg/L depending on the plant. Half a Campden tablet should be more than sufficient to treat 20 gal of water at that level. Now they say they use chlorine for disinfection in which case you don't need to treat at all as it will dissipate in standing over night. That is if when they say chlorine they mean chlorine and not chloramine in which case you'll need the Campden tablets. There is a simple test. Let a glass of the water stand over night. Next morning pour it into another glass while sniffing. If you smell chlorine then they used chloramine and you will need to treat.

 

[kingschiff]

According to the report it ranges from 0.7 to 1.5 mg/L depending on the plant. Half a Campden tablet should be more than sufficient to treat 20 gal of water at that level. Now they say they use chlorine for disinfection in which case you don't need to treat at all as it will dissipate in standing over night. That is if when they say chlorine they mean chlorine and not chloramine in which case you'll need the Campden tablets. There is a simple test. Let a glass of the water stand over night. Next morning pour it into another glass while sniffing. If you smell chlorine then they used chloramine and you will need to treat.

I read you mentioned trying to smell a glass overnight, I'm just not sure if my nose is keen enough to pick up on it.

 

[kingschiff]

What would you choose? @ajdelange @Silver_Is_Money

a) continue using distilled (clean slate) and build
b) use the tap water with the profile I showed

also if i go with tap water, and use potassium metabisulfite to combat chlorine. I am worried about being able to do my kettle sours. (lacto) which i've read PM will combat the "bacteria"
is this the case?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What would you choose?

a) continue using distilled (clean slate) and build
b) use the tap water with the profile I showed

also if i go with tap water, and use potassium metabisulfite to combat chlorine. I am worried about being able to do my kettle sours. (lacto) which i've read PM will combat the "bacteria"
is this the case?

I'm not seeing a target "profile", and I don't know what beer style you have on deck. All I see is your listed water analyticals. Your water should work for Pilsners without addressing anything beyond knocking out the alkalinity, but for most others (sans IPA's) I would add some CaCl2 to boost both the calcium and chloride ion ppms, and I would avoid adding Gypsum (since I have a personal preference for malt forward with a silky mouthfeel vs. dry and hoppy). Specifically, I would most likely add 1.5 to 2 grams of CaCl2.2H2O to every 5 gallons of your water.

I can't help with your concern for disrupting sours fermentation with respect to K-Meta, but I initially suspect that by the time a small quantity of K-Meta passes through both the mash and boil it will be rendered a non issue. I will defer to others with more experience here.

To address the alkalinity as well as reduce the mash pH for beers like Pilsners I would consider acquiring some 85% Phosphoric Acid. Lactic Acid may approach the flavor detection limit if used for all purposes spanning mash and sparge waters.

 

[kingschiff]

I'm not seeing a target "profile", and I don't know what beer style you have on deck. All I see is your listed water analyticals. ........lkalinity as well as reduce the mash pH for beers like Pilsners I would consider acquiring some 85% Phosphoric Acid. Lactic Acid may approach the flavor detection limit if used for all purposes spanning mash and sparge waters.

I guess I could go back and forth between the 2, distilled and tap, based on style. I figured it would be easier to stick with one.

are you saying the water profile doesn't fit IPAs well?

is phosphoric acid not detectable when you have to use larger qtys?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I guess I could go back and forth between the 2, distilled and tap, based on style. I figured it would be easier to stick with one.

are you saying the water profile doesn't fit IPAs well?

is phosphoric acid not detectable when you have to use larger qtys?

My reference to adding CaCl2 and not adding gypsum was for most everything sans IPA's. For West Coast style IPA's, when starting with your water, for every 5 gallons I would add 2 grams of CaCl2, and also add 4.25 grams of gypsum. For NEIPA's I would add to each 5 gallons 1.75 grams of gypsum, 4 grams of CaCl2.2H2O, and 1 gram of NaCl.

Phosphoric Acid is highly non-detectable. With 85% concentration H3PO4 you will not be adding large quantities.

 

[kingschiff]

My reference to adding CaCl2 and not adding gypsum was for most everything sans IPA's. For West Coast style IPA's, when starting with your water, for every 5 gallons I would add 2 grams of CaCl2, and also add 4.25 grams of gypsum. For NEIPA's I would add to each 5 gallons 1.75 grams of gypsum, 4 grams of CaCl2.2H2O, and 1 gram of NaCl.

Phosphoric Acid is highly non-detectable. With 85% concentration H3PO4 you will not be adding large quantities.

messing around in MME with a recipe and distilled water. has me added 54.82ml of phosphoric to get to mash ph.

is that quantity normal?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

messing around in MME with a recipe and distilled water. has me added 54.82ml of phosphoric to get to mash ph.

is that quantity normal?

For 10% Phosphoric along with your waters 98 ppm alkalinity it sounds normal (albeit recipe and quantity of grist and target mash pH and mash water volume dependent), but certainly not for 85%. See the "sheet" selectors at the bottom of Mash Made Easy, where you can select and set your acids % concentration. There you will also see guidance for treating sparge water with either lactic or phosphoric acid at your chosen percent concentration.

 

[kingschiff]

For 10% Phosphoric along with your waters 98 ppm alkalinity it sounds normal (albeit recipe and quantity of grist and target mash pH and mash water volume dependent), but certainly not for 85%. See the "sheet" selectors at the bottom of Mash Made Easy, where you can select and set your acids % concentration. There you will also see guidance for treating sparge water with either lactic or phosphoric acid at your chosen percent concentration.

1) Where can you get it? I mostly see 10% online. 85% available in giant quantities.

2) if i was trying to figure out the amount of potassium metabisulfite to add to my water to compensate for chlorine/chloramines. Do you know what formula I'd use based on my #s?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

1) Where can you get it? I mostly see 10% online. 85% available in giant quantities.

2) if i was trying to figure out the amount of potassium metabisulfite to add to my water to compensate for chlorine/chloramines. Do you know what formula I'd use based on my #s?

1) http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=phosphoric
(they also sell it on Amazon.com)

2) Generally 1/4 tablet is used for every 5 gallons of water. Your chlorine may require only half of this if you are really trying to cut it to the quick. Crush, add, and stir. It works instantly.

 

[kingschiff]

1) http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=phosphoric
(they also sell it on Amazon.com)

2) Generally 1/4 tablet is used for every 5 gallons of water. Your chlorine may require only half of this if you are really trying to cut it to the quick. Crush, add, and stir. It works instantly.

I was considering using the powder. will that work? ratios?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I was considering using the powder. will that work? ratios?

It will work. Someone will know the weight of a tablet.

 

[kingschiff]

It will work. Someone will know the weight of a tablet.

there's this table, but i would need to know the MG of free chlorine to know the pot. met. to add.

 

[mabrungard]

As long as that tap water doesn't have any metallic taste from manganese, I'd be very happy to have that as my tap water. It would serve brewing most styles very well. The primary concern would be to neutralize alkalinity as needed for the brew at hand. At that modest alkalinity level, there would be no problem in using lactic acid as the primary acid for alkalinity neutralization.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

As long as that tap water doesn't have any metallic taste from manganese, I'd be very happy to have that as my tap water.

Martin, do you know the typical ppm detectability level for manganese?

 

[ajdelange]

there's this table, but i would need to know the MG of free chlorine to know the pot. met. to add.

See No. 18

 

[kingschiff]

According to the report it ranges from 0.7 to 1.5 mg/L depending on the plant. Half a Campden tablet should be more than sufficient to treat 20 gal of water at that level. .

I'm typically treating 4-5 mash gal, and 3-4 sparge gallons sep.

would it be like 1/4 campden for each? how much pot. met. so i wouldn't have to crush a campden?

 

[ajdelange]

Martin, do you know the typical ppm detectability level for manganese?

Hach's photometric method has a sensitivity (level required to produce a change in A of 0.010) of 6 ug/L. By reducing (e.g. evaporating) away half or 3/4 of the water you can get to half or a quarter of that. But why are you worried about manganese? With iron below Ward's detectability why would you worry about manganese? Did I miss something?

 

[ajdelange]

I'm typically treating 4-5 mash gal, and 3-4 sparge gallons sep.

would it be like 1/4 campden for each? how much pot. met. so i wouldn't have to crush a campden?

Best case in 5 gal you'd have 0.7*5.*3.785 = 13.24 mg chlorine requiring 1.564*13.24 = 20.7 mg Kmetabite assuming it's really chlorine. Worst case (1.5 mg/L chlorine) you would need twice that. Were the source of the chlorine NH2Cl then you would need twice again those amounts or about 80 mg (all chloramine, 1.5 mg/L chlorine equivalent). A Campden tablet is about 700 mg so 1/4 of one would be plenty for 5 gal. See the Sticky for discussion of the effects of excess metabite (none harmful, some beneficial).

 

[kingschiff]

Best case in 5 gal you'd have 0.7*5.*3.785 = 13.24 mg chlorine requiring 1.564*13.24 = 20.7 mg Kmetabite assuming it's really chlorine. Worst case (1.5 mg/L chlorine) you would need twice that. Were the source of the chlorine NH2Cl then you would need twice again those amounts or about 80 mg (all chloramine, 1.5 mg/L chlorine equivalent). A Campden tablet is about 700 mg so 1/4 of one would be plenty for 5 gal. See the Sticky for discussion of the effects of excess metabite (none harmful, some beneficial).

so 1/8 of the campden would possibly do the trick?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes but it never hurts to be conservative as any metabite that is in excess will benefit your beer in other ways.

 

[mabrungard]

Hach's photometric method has a sensitivity (level required to produce a change in A of 0.010) of 6 ug/L. By reducing (e.g. evaporating) away half or 3/4 of the water you can get to half or a quarter of that. But why are you worried about manganese. With iron below Ward's detectability why would you worry about manganese? Did I miss something?

That iron result is not a factor when dealing with manganese. With an aesthetic limit of about 50 ppb for manganese, it has a very metallic taste above that concentration. If your plumbing fixtures have blackish discoloration and your water has a metallic taste, that is an indication that the manganese level may be higher than desirable in your tap water.

AJ, I've been brewing with low dissolved oxygen methods for over a year now and using low level meta concentration in the mashing and sparging water to help assure oxygen scavenging. One finding that I've deduced is that I don't like the beer flavor in beers with roast grain in the grist when meta is at anything but the lowest level. I don't know if its the resulting slight increase in sulfate or its just the effect that LODO has on roast flavor, but I don't like it. I caution anyone from employing meta in their brewing at a level greater than what is absolutely necessary for oxygen scavenging. So don't assume that brewing with a little extra meta is without consequence...at least that's my experience.

 

[kingschiff]

That's why I'm trying to get a set amount of powder I can add. crushing a tablet, and trying to make sure it's a certain amount isn't the most accurate way.