Water Question?

[Gytaryst]

I sent off and had my tap water analyzed at Ward Labs about a year ago, (maybe longer). But after reading more about it I learned that municipal water chemistry can very significantly from one month to another, and there can be major differences in readings with a year. Sending samples off to Ward Labs every month at almost $30 a pop isn't an option. I'm looking into some of the kits from Lamotte that John Palmer endorses, but I have a lot of other "brewing equipment" needs that come first before water testing supplies.
So I've decided for the time being to just buy R/O water and add salts. Using the Bru N Water spreadsheet I came up with this profile for an upcoming IPA. It's based on 100% R/O water and about 12.5 lbs of grain. The numbers look good but it seems like significantly more mineral additions than what I'm used to.
I was wondering if someone with more expertise in this area would mind glancing at this and giving me their opinion?

 

[Barley_Bob]

I'm happy to help where I can, and I'm sure others will chime in with more.

First, your mineral additions will of course be higher. That makes sense - you're starting from RO! For an IPA, I'm usually adding around 6g CaSO4 and a little more than a gram of CaCl. So your mash addition looks fine in that regard. However, I see some other problems.

First, to get your pH to balance, you don't need to use baking soda or chalk or whatever. Leave those out. Just figure out how much gypsum and chloride you need to add to get your desired profile (as you've done). So, let's say it's 6g SO4 and 1.3g CaCl. And then remove as much of those as necessary from the mash to get the pH right. At this stage, you might now be adding 3g SO4 and 1.3g CaCl. Then add the remaining 3g SO4 to the boil after the mash is complete!

The sparge water column is asking how much you're going to add for your sparge, if I'm not mistaken. Right now, you're adding 8 gallons to your existing 4 gallons in the mash. That seems like quite a lot. I BIAB, and I usually sparge with 1-2gal of RO. Plus, when using RO, you don't actually need to add brewing salts to the sparge. So, you can leave those out.

Finally, it looks like you're using an older version of Bru'n water. Definitely get the newest one - it gets better every time!

Anyone else have more to add? Maybe someone who uses a more traditional sparge?

 

[xpops]

what type of beer is it? the high sulfate would indicate an IPA to me, but the high bicarbonate would indicate some type of stout....is it a black IPA maybe?

Eitherway - you'll definitely need more additions using RO. keep in mind you're building from basically nothing! I currently have a well, and it's easier for me to use RO as well instead of constantly testing water. Some people say its more consistent than city source...some say it's less....i say use RO

since you're using chalk and baking soda, make sure to check off that little checkbox beside your additions to replace those items for your sparge water!

Also, with RO - disregard that 0.1 ml of acid. You dont need to acidify your sparge water.

cheers,

 

[xpops]

oops - it is an IPA...i seemed to miss that in original post. i agree with Barley...cut out the bicarbonates, and try to hit a 5.3 mash pH, and a total of 12gal for a 5.5gal batch does seem like a little much...is 8 gal supposed to be your total water used?

 

[Gytaryst]

BeerSmith puts my total water used at 9.65. I usually mix up 10 gallons of water for a 5.5 gallon batch. I don't use it all, but I'd rather have too much than not enough. With this batch I am using some new equipment and I'm going to do a fly sparge rather than my usual batch sparge. BeerSmith calls for 16 qts for the mash - I added the 8 gallons of sparge water in Bru N Water, (again), I'd rather have too much than not enough. I'm sure it is probably a lot. It's a 90 minute boil. The last batch I brewed a few weeks ago I had 1.25 calculated as the boil off rate and it ended up being 1.6. I'm going to cut back on the heat and hopefully get that back down this time, especially with a 90 minute boil.

I thought I read there was a newer version of Bru N Water. Not sure why I don't have it. I'll have to check again.

 

[Gytaryst]

... First, to get your pH to balance, you don't need to use baking soda or chalk or whatever. Leave those out. Just figure out how much gypsum and chloride you need to add to get your desired profile (as you've done). So, let's say it's 6g SO4 and 1.3g CaCl. And then remove as much of those as necessary from the mash to get the pH right. At this stage, you might now be adding 3g SO4 and 1.3g CaCl. Then add the remaining 3g SO4 to the boil after the mash is complete!

I used the newer version of Bru N Water to recalculate. Starting out with 100% RO water it says the pH is 5.57, but states that's false until I add the grain bill. When I add the grain bill (3 grains), the pH drops to 4.43 before adding any salts. So I don't see how I can get the pH adjusted without using baking soda or chalk? Before ever adding anything it's telling me the pH is already too low.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I used the newer version of Bru N Water to recalculate. Starting out with 100% RO water it says the pH is 5.57, but states that's false until I add the grain bill. When I add the grain bill (3 grains), the pH drops to 4.43 before adding any salts. So I don't see how I can get the pH adjusted without using baking soda or chalk? Before ever adding anything it's telling me the pH is already too low.

Why don't you post your grain bill and I'll take a look? I can't really help you with a fly sparge, but we can get this mash pH figured out.

 

[Gytaryst]

Why don't you post your grain bill and I'll take a look?

I just adjusted the grain bill. I haven't had time to mess with the spreadsheet yet though.
10.5 lbs of 2 Row Pale Malt (1.9 SRM)
2.25 lbs of Barke Munich (7.9 SRM)

 

[Barley_Bob]

I just adjusted the grain bill. I haven't had time to mess with the spreadsheet yet though.
10.5 lbs of 2 Row Pale Malt (1.9 SRM)
2.25 lbs of Barke Munich (7.9 SRM)

Alright, my man. When I plug that grist into Bru'n Water, and set RO dilution to 100%, I get a 5.67 pH.

I put into 4 gallons of strike water:
1.5g SO4/gal to total 6g SO4
.25g Cl/gal to toal 1g Cl

This gives me:
Final sulfate: 221ppm
Final chloride: 42ppm
Mash pH: 5.39

I like to mash higher. For whatever reason. So, I adjust my water inputs as follows
1g SO4/gal to total 4g SO4
CL stays the same

My mash pH goes up to 5.47, and then I can just add the remaining 2g of SO4 to the boil.

 

[Gytaryst]

I'll definitely give this a shot - thank you very much.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I'll definitely give this a shot - thank you very much.

Not a problem. And of course, add more or less SO4 and Cl to your taste. That's where I like it, but everyone has a different opinion. And then also look for advice on sparging if you need it.

Good luck!

 

[Gytaryst]

I decided to start fly sparging because I've been having a bear of a time trying to raise my efficiency. I thought about buying a grain mill. I know I want one eventually but right now I'm trying to buy the stuff I need to keg because I'm tired of washing bottles. My LHBS has their mill set to .038 so I really don't think the crush is the issue anyway.

I looked at every contraption people have come up with or built for flay sparging. Some get pretty elaborate, cost a fortune just for materials, and take days to build (IF) you have the skills and tools necessary.

Then I ran across a video showing the Sabco Brew Magic system's method of fly sparging . . . lay the silicone hose flat on top of the grain bed to create a gentle whirlpool. Material needed - 0, cost - $0, time - 0, storage space required - 0, cleaning - 0, durability - indefinite, maintenance - 0.

So I'm going to "invest" in that for now and see how that works out.

 

[DrunkenCanuck]

I started brewing using Culligan R/O water, but I am getting tired of lugging around those big honking jugs (and I had one explode on me in the store a few weeks ago when I went to do a fill up).

I haven't much got into the science of water and changing things like pH levels and whatnot because I haven't studied up on the biological properties of water and how it effects the flavor of the beer. But I should get an RO water filtration system so at least I don't have to lug those jugs around.

 

[Gytaryst]

... But I should get an RO water filtration system so at least I don't have to lug those jugs around.

I've thought about that too.
I sent a sample of my tap water in to Ward Labs and it's actually pretty good water as far as drinking, cooking, and all that goes. It's not that good for making beer. First and foremost it has chlorine or chloramine, (I'm not sure which). I got in the habit of automatically throwing 1/2 a campden tablet into 10 gallons first thing on brew day. The problem I recently discovered is that municipal water can change pretty drastically from one month to the next, so those test results from Ward Lab which are now over a year old might not even be close to what I'm actually using. I'm debating if I want to invest in an RO system just for brewing, or if I want to buy one of those test kits from Lamotte and stick with the tap water. I was diluting my tap water with distilled water and then read that if the water they're distilling has chloramine in it before it's distilled, it will have chloramine in it after it's distilled.

I'm not an expert either but it sounds to me like R/O water does a better job of removing chlorine and/or chloramine.

I don't know. I've only been brewing a little over two years and I've never brewed anything I would consider "outstanding" yet. I guess that's probably what keeps me going - hoping the next batch will be the one. I'm so new at it that I still tweak almost everything from one brew day to the next, I'm constantly changing equipment so I can never get any consistent values to plug in. I'm thinking I finally have all the equipment I wanted so I'm hoping to start hoping settling down and actually dialing in some of the finer details.

Water's just one area I'm still screwing around with when I probably shouldn't be.

 

[IslandLizard]

The chlorine or chloramines are not a real problem, easy to remove with Campden/K-meta.

But the changing water composition is not good, especially when the spread is wide. RO will fix all that for you. A small RO system will run you less than $200 (e.g., Buckeye Systems, one of our sponsors), and the cartridges/membrane should last for years if only used for brewing water, cooking/drinking water, and watering the African violets.

Those test kits are ridiculously expensive for what they are, a few bottles of fairly cheap reagents, and run around the same price as that RO system, or more.

 

[Gytaryst]

The chlorine or chloramines are not a real problem, easy to remove with Campden/K-meta.

But the changing water composition is not good, especially when the spread is wide. RO will fix all that for you. A small RO system will run you less than $200 (e.g., Buckeye Systems, one of our sponsors), and the cartridges/membrane should last for years if only used for brewing water, cooking/drinking water, and watering the African violets.

Those test kits are ridiculously expensive for what they are, a few bottles of fairly cheap reagents, and run around the same price as that RO system, or more.

Oh great - now I gotta buy African violets. Man this hobby gets expensive

 

[DrunkenCanuck]

I've thought about that too.
I sent a sample of my tap water in to Ward Labs and it's actually pretty good water as far as drinking, cooking, and all that goes. It's not that good for making beer. First and foremost it has chlorine or chloramine, (I'm not sure which). I got in the habit of automatically throwing 1/2 a campden tablet into 10 gallons first thing on brew day. The problem I recently discovered is that municipal water can change pretty drastically from one month to the next, so those test results from Ward Lab which are now over a year old might not even be close to what I'm actually using. I'm debating if I want to invest in an RO system just for brewing, or if I want to buy one of those test kits from Lamotte and stick with the tap water. I was diluting my tap water with distilled water and then read that if the water they're distilling has chloramine in it before it's distilled, it will have chloramine in it after it's distilled.

I'm not an expert either but it sounds to me like R/O water does a better job of removing chlorine and/or chloramine.

I don't know. I've only been brewing a little over two years and I've never brewed anything I would consider "outstanding" yet. I guess that's probably what keeps me going - hoping the next batch will be the one. I'm so new at it that I still tweak almost everything from one brew day to the next, I'm constantly changing equipment so I can never get any consistent values to plug in. I'm thinking I finally have all the equipment I wanted so I'm hoping to start hoping settling down and actually dialing in some of the finer details.

Water's just one area I'm still screwing around with when I probably shouldn't be.

My tap water comes off the Grand River in southern Ontario, the water isn't clean enough for making beer. It's actually pretty bad, but at least it's not the aquifer water that they use in Guelph which is hard as hell and ruins your appliances if not softened.