Water profile: what really matters?

[ajdelange]

So, does pH of the water really matter?

Yes it does but as the carbonic acid titration curve is pretty flat at pH values below about 5.5 (i.e. for the most likely range of mash pH's) and above about pH 7 up to about 9 (i.e. where most water pH values fall) the proton deficit of the water doesn't much depend on pH, either of the water or the mash and it is sufficient to know the alkalinity for rough work. Most of the spreadsheets take advantage of this approximation.

For more accurate results one must indeed consider the pH of the water. The proton deficit between the water sample pH and the alkalinity titration end point pH is taken from the titration curve (or the underlying math) and, the measured alkalinity (as adjusted for H+, OH-, phosphate and silicate) is divided by this in order to determine how much carbo is in the system. The proton deficit between sample pH and desired mash pH is then taken from the curve (or math) and multiplied by the total amount of carbo to give the proton deficit of the water to mash pH.

 

[stodds]

Actually on a Lovibond color to Lovibond color match basis, caramel/crystal malts are much more acidic than roasted malts/grains.

For example, pound for pound, 80L caramel/crystal is roughly about as acidic as is 300L to 400L roasted. This being from data which Breiss sent to me upon request.

True. I oversimplified.

But, looks like Bru'n water takes that into account based on malt type.

 

[motosapiens]

If i'm using 100% RO water, and making additions of Sulfate/CaCl in less than ~150ppm. And I'm mashing a batch of 1.050 wort. How much acid malt, or how much lactic acid do I need to achieve an ideal mash PH, or as close to it as possible without having a PH meter?

build a man a fire and you keep him warm for a day. set a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his life. Fortunately, forum member Martin Brungard has given me the tools to set you on fire, and permanently solve your problem.

The answer is to plug your grain bill and water/mineral info into bru'n water, and do what it tells you.

fwiw, sparge ph is also important, at least if you have alkaline water like I do. For my personal water (170-ish alkalinity), the right answer is between 0 and 4ml of lactic acid in the mash, depending on the grain bill and .8 or so ml/gallon of lactic acid in the sparge (unless it's a bavarian hefeweizen, in which case I use half that or less).

 

[ajdelange]

If you have a very low mineral content water (RO) the pH - whatever it is, can be pushed with relatively small additions of acid. If you have high mineral content water the minerals in the water "buffer" against any movement in pH. So, larger amounts of acid would be required to make smaller moves in pH in water with high mineral content.

That depends on whether the minerals (ions) in the water have appreciable buffering capacity in the range of pH under consideration.

So, you could have high pH water with low minerals and drop the pH easily with very small acid addition.

That would be true as low minerals implies low minerals of buffering capacity as well as those that have nearly none.

On the other hand, you could have more moderate pH water with high mineral content..... and even moving it a little bit would require more acid.

That would not be true unless a buffering ion (bicarbonate, silicate at high pH, phosphate) were present. It takes very little acid to move the pH of a strong (in brewing terms) calcium sulfate or calcium chloride solution (waters that have high 'permanent' hardness) appreciably. These (chloride and sulfate) do not buffer at mash or potable water pH.

 

[GoeHaarden]

The answer is to plug your grain bill and water/mineral info into bru'n water, and do what it tells you.

THIS!

I leave the rest to the brains of this forum.

 

[millsbrew]

Brew it twice. Once with RO and once with tap. You'll see if it's worth it.

 

[Apimyces]

My well water is sulfurous and kind of smells like eggs. Is the fermentation likely to gas off these unpleasant aroma, or am I better to keep using store bought distilled water for my brews?

 

[Zilbeer]

Hi,
I use active carbon+ceramic filter system (made by Katadyn).
I use it as my tap water taste isn't that great in general.
My water profile is the following:
Tap:
pH 6.6
Cl- 100.7 ppm
Conductivity 470 micS/cm
Ca+2 - 43.9ppm
Mg 6.94ppm
Total hardness 138.2ppm CaCO3
Alkalinity 118.84 ppm CaCO3
Desolved oxygen 5.98ppm
TDS 230ppm

Filtered water:
pH 7.06
Cl- 57.3 ppm
Conductivity 460 micS/cm
Ca+2 - 42.3ppm
Mg 6.91ppm
Total hardness 133.6ppm CaCO3
Alkalinity 116 ppm CaCO3
Desolved oxygen 5.73ppm
TDS 225ppm

I don't have the sulphate profile as my city doesn't publish it.
What do you think - should I make any adjustments to improve my beers?
I so far brewed 3 times stout, 1 brown ale and 1 amber ale.
I usually like the darker beers but would also like to brew some blonde/pale ones.
Thanks in advance
Ofer

 

[ajdelange]

My well water is sulfurous and kind of smells like eggs. Is the fermentation likely to gas off these unpleasant aroma, or am I better to keep using store bought distilled water for my brews?

No, I don't think it will. There are techniques for removing the sulfide from the water though. You might try aeration first. This is limited in how much sulfide it can remove. After aeration filter the water to trap the sulfur particles. You can also try bleach. Again, elemental sulfur is formed so filter after using bleach too and be sure to wait long enough for the chlorine to dissipate or remove it with metabite. The people who service your well can install equipment that removes sulfur by the methods I've described but that route is, of course, expensive and the equipment has to be maintained (bleach replenished, filter elements replaced etc.).

Depending on what else is in the water distilled or RO may be the better choice and certainly less trouble than removing the sulfur by the methods I've suggested.

 

[ajdelange]

Hi,
Tap:
pH 6.6
Cl- 100.7 ppm
Conductivity 470 micS/cm

Filtered water:
pH 7.06
Cl- 57.3 ppm
Conductivity 460 micS/cm

Something funny here. Filtering may well agitate the water enough to get the CO2 out (rise in pH) but it should not reduce the chloride levels at all let alone by nearly half. The small change in conductivity supports that observation.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Ok so we have a fresh thread here with a lot of good info. I know this deviates from the OP, but it is a very valuable general question IMO that will help a lot of people searching google/HBT for answers in the future.

If i'm using 100% RO water, and making additions of Sulfate/CaCl in less than ~150ppm. And I'm mashing a batch of 1.050 wort. How much acid malt, or how much lactic acid do I need to achieve an ideal mash PH, or as close to it as possible without having a PH meter?

My research and experience has led me to think 4oz Acid Malt, 4-5ml Lactic. But i've never seen someone specifically state this. I've also used much more lactic with the same variables and had interestingly good results. I know lower PH doesn't cause the problems that higher PH does.

It seems like such an easy reference point to map considering the variables are static enough (100% RO, 1.050 wort, typical mineral additions), but I can't tell you how many searches and threads have lead me down a (informative, yet question evoking)rabbit hole without explicitly stating this general, relatively non-conditional rule of thumb.

The pH of your mash is determined by a combination of, the DI pH of the individual grains in your recipe, and the pH and alkalinity of your brewing water. So while your brewing water may stay consistent year round, which may or may not be very likely, the type and amounts of the grain in your recipes is very likely to change from beer style to style, making the grain DI ph a variable. That is why there is no reference table available to simplify the design of your brewing water profile.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My well water has quite noticeable sulfur odor issues, and I've been able to reduce them to being undetectable by nose (at least my aging nose and my wife's never aging nose) simply by agitating (aerating) followed by letting it sit in an open container for a day or two.

I believe the bacteria that cause this issue are anaerobic, so the aeration kills them off. So once the resting period deodorizes the water, there are no longer bacteria present to re-odorize it.

 

[ajdelange]

The pH of your mash is determined by a combination of, the DI pH of the individual grains in your recipe, and the pH and alkalinity of your brewing water.

As explained in #31 the pH of the brewing water is a minor factor as long as one knows the alkalinity. A more relevant factor is the water to grist ratio except in cases where the alkalinity is low.

 

[ajdelange]

I believe the bacteria that cause this issue are anaerobic, so the aeration kills them off. So once the resting period deodorizes the water, there are no longer bacteria present to re-odorize it.

There are several ways (including bacteria) to get H2S into your water. But what happens when you oxygenate (or add chlorine or any other oxidizing agent) is that the S- ion gets oxidized to elemental sulfur which is not water soluble and which you should filter out.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There are several ways (including bacteria) to get H2S into your water. But what happens when you oxygenate (or add chlorine or any other oxidizing agent) is that the S- ion gets oxidized to elemental sulfur which is not water soluble and which you should filter out.

Good to know. Thanks A.J.!!!

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

As explained in #31 the pH of the brewing water is a minor factor as long as one knows the alkalinity. A more relevant factor is the water to grist ratio except in cases where the alkalinity is low.

That's true. Using RO water for all of my brewing, source water alkalinity is not something that concerns me. Since switching to BIAB brewing where the ratio of brewing water to grist are more in the 2.5 qt/lb range, than the 1.25 qt/lb range when using a mash tun, I became much more interested in brewing water properties.

Not everyone has the luxury of building their water profile starting with distilled or RO water. For some brewers, the sheer volume of water needed to be treated, as is the case in many breweries, or the added cost of getting distilled or RO water, means they will always have to try to figure out the properties of their primary water source beforehand.

 

[Apimyces]

What's RO water?

Yea, I've got bacteria in my well, or at least I presume so. Gonna have to desinfect it soon, might fix the issue. A bit of a hassle since it serves multiple dwellings though so we'll need to coordinate a bit.

 

[Braufessor]

What's RO water?

Yea, I've got bacteria in my well, or at least I presume so. Gonna have to desinfect it soon, might fix the issue. A bit of a hassle since it serves multiple dwellings though so we'll need to coordinate a bit.

Reverse Osmosis Filtered - most of those water dispensing machines at Walmart/Grocery Stores where you can fill jugs are dispensing "RO Water."

 

[ajdelange]

'Shocking' a well with bleach will easily dispatch most coliforms but the sulfur reducing bacteria (SRB) responsible for hydrogen sulfide production are more stubborn because they create a slime layer which protects them from the introduced hypochlorite. More dramatic treatment is often required. So test to be sure that this is the problem before you undertake treatment for SRBs.

RO water is water that has been run through a Reverse Osmosis system - in essence a very fine filter - which removes most (95% or more) of the ions. It is, thus, essentially pure.

 

[lawdawg]

Personally I got sick of monkeying around with my tap water profile. I did insane amounts of research on the topic and fretted over lactic vs phosphoric acid additions, etc, etc until I finally decided I'm just starting every batch with a blank slate. Our tap water is basically ok for brewing porters/stouts but I still have to filter out the chorine. It sucks paying the extra $8 bucks per batch for distilled but it makes better beer in the end as far as I'm concerned. So, I just start with distilled and add minerals as required per bru-n-water and the beers are usually good if the recipe (and process) was good. I try to keep it simple and just use the yellow, amber, and brown water profiles in bru-n-water and tweek them to the style I'm brewing. There's a learning curve and plenty of info on youtube to help learn bru-n-water but once you know the basics it's pretty easy after brewing a few batches. It will require a good bit of research but it's worth the extra time and money in my opinion. Cheers!

 

[Apimyces]

'Shocking' a well with bleach will easily dispatch most coliforms but the sulfur reducing bacteria (SRB) responsible for hydrogen sulfide production are more stubborn because they create a slime layer which protects them from the introduced hypochlorite. More dramatic treatment is often required. So test to be sure that this is the problem before you undertake treatment for SRBs.

RO water is water that has been run through a Reverse Osmosis system - in essence a very fine filter - which removes most (95% or more) of the ions. It is, thus, essentially pure.

Fantastic... XD

We have a system that treats for minerals, but does nothing, or at least very little, for the odor. Haven't tried aerating the water yet. Guys who installed it said that we should probably try the shock treatments first, because the systems to deal with this stuff are pretty expensive.

Thanks for RO. I know what reverse osmosis is, just didn't make the association.