Water profile effect on dry hopped extract beer

[bw7hb]

I've been trying for a while now to brew a decent hoppy beer using extract + dry hops. I did about 6 attempts at a NEIPA and a few other dry hopped beer styles, and they all had this really strong flavor which, to me at least, made the beer undrinkable. The same flavor has occurred in all my dry hopped beers, but beers without dry hops have turned out fine. I'm not going to try describe the flavor as I don't think I have enough experience to describe it accurately, and I don't want a potentially inaccurate description to influence anyone's response. I know that the flavor I'm getting is definitely not normal - I've drunk various NEIPAs and other hoppy styles that don't have the issue.

I've done a lot of research and pondered this issue for around 4 months now. I've pretty much 100% ruled out infections and fermentation issues. The only thing I can think of is my water profile, and this is something I've never played with at all, as I've regarded it as a more advanced area that would only result in small improvements, but perhaps this is wrong.

I'm brewing using extract so I don't think it's anything to do with the wort prior to adding dry hops, but I'm wondering if my water is causing issues with the hop flavor imparted with the dry hopping. I'm using tap water (have also tried RO water, same outcome) and, according to information about my water supply, it has very low levels of both chlorides and sulfates. Around 10-20 ppm chlorides and around 3-7 ppm sulfates.

My questions are:

• What would you expect from a beer dry hopped with around 100g - 200g in a 23L batch with this level of chlorides and sulfates?
• What level of chlorides / sulfates should I try for my next beer (bear in mind I'm using all extract)?

I've read that water profile doesn't matter for extract brewing, but I'm wondering if it would still affect beers with lots of hops added.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[wepeeler]

I'm pretty sure this won't be much help, but I brewed about 5-6 extract neipas before switching to all grain. They were absolutely drinkable, but I wouldn't consider them great beers. I came to the conclusion that it was the "extract twang" that I often read about. But I've also read that people make award winning beers from extract. Personally, I've never had an extract beer that I would be happy to buy again (or share). There was always this similar taste on the back end that I wasn't happy with. Once I made the switch to all grain (BIAB), I've never experienced the "twang" again. Maybe my palette is sensitive to extract? Maybe I'm just crazy?

On a side note, I added to my water profile 1x during extract brewing, and it made the beer considerably more salty. Never did it again.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My questions are:

• What would you expect from a beer dry hopped with around 100g - 200g in a 23L batch with this level of chlorides and sulfates?
• What level of chlorides / sulfates should I try for my next beer (bear in mind I'm using all extract)?

Without knowing the mineral composition of the water that was used to make the specific brand (and maybe type - light vs dark) of malt extract, it's likely that any answers will be some form of educated/good/bad guess.

For the second question, one could add salts to the finished beer to "dial in" the desired mineral profile without over-mineralizing the full batch of beer.

• https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...fter-it-has-been-brewed-and-fermented.668470/
• https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/bru’n-water-for-extract-no-boil.668346/
• https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/adding-salts-to-finished-beer.455959/

 

[bw7hb]

For the second question, one could add salts to the finished beer to "dial in" the desired mineral profile without over-mineralizing the full batch of beer.

Thanks, I've ordered some calcium sulfate and calcium chloride and will experiement... didn't realise you could add it after the beer was done.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

have also tried RO water, same outcome

This makes me think that the issue is not your water. Sulfate will enhance the dry finish of a beer which makes the hop bitterness more pronounced. Chloride will help to enhance the fullness of the beer. The lack of these (and other minerals) will not cause a "really strong flavor".

Are you brewing any other beer styles other than hoppy beers?

Hoppy beers are very susceptible to oxidation. Like most flavors, oxidation can register different to different people. For me an oxidized beer has a papery sweetness, but cardboard is a common descriptor of the flavor. Oxidation will often darken the color of a beer as well and will dull flavors.

 

[dmtaylor]

Is your water chlorinated? That would be bad.

 

[bw7hb]

Are you brewing any other beer styles other than hoppy beers?

No, but my latest brew turned out OK, which is an APA hopped with a decent hop tea at the start of fermentation. Not as hoppy as I'd like and the hop flavour seems a bit harsh, rather than the smooth juicy hop flavor that I'm wanting. It was hop tea'd with centennial, citra, and mosaic, 50g of each in a 4L hop tea. This beer did seem to have a very faint hint of the off-flavor I'm getting with my dry hopped beers, but not enough to ruin the beer.

Hoppy beers are very susceptible to oxidation. Like most flavors, oxidation can register different to different people. For me an oxidized beer has a papery sweetness, but cardboard is a common descriptor of the flavor. Oxidation will often darken the color of a beer as well and will dull flavors.

I'm sure it's not oxidation, the off-flavor doesn't match, I'm brewing in a pressure fermenter, and I'm very careful during dry hopping.

Is your water chlorinated? That would be bad.

Yes, but the two attempts with RO water were exactly the same.

 

[bw7hb]

For what it's worth, I'll try describe the off-flavor.

When I first came across the issue I thought it was an acetaldehyde issue, the taste was somewhat green-appley. Some other people I've asked to describe it have said it smells like pear. I've often wondered if it's what some people would describe as grassy/vegetal, but that wasn't my first impression (although it's a long time since I've tried eating grass).
All of the beers with the flavor seem to smell/taste pretty much identical, despite changing up the malts/hops/yeast on different attempts. It completely overrides the whole beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... hop tea'd ...

FWIW, I have noticed that some people report good results when using hop teas. A few people will report really bad results and IIRC, grassy/vegetal is an undesired flavor they report.