Water or Star San change?

[rcrabb22]

I recently finished a bottle of Star San and opened a new 32oz bottle I had ordered a few months back. In the past I have had no issues storing Star San in a 5 gal bucket for 4 to 6 weeks. It always remained crystal clear and the PH stayed pretty stable per my PH meter readings.

The last few batches I have made have become cloudy overnight although the PH is still fine measuring around 2.5. Either something has changed in my city water supply or in this bottle of Star San.

I always store a 3 piece plastic wine thief and a 8" funnel in the bucket and I thought maybe the long term exposure to the acid solution had broken down the plastic and cause cloudiness. I got another bucket and made a fresh 5 gal batch storing nothing in it and it became cloudy overnight but PH reading stayed the same a fresh mix.

Anyone else see any differences in their Star San behavior recently?

 

[LordUlrich]

Based on the flooding recently I would expect most peoples water to change more than during a typical spring. However in the spring most people will see softer water not harder(which typicaly relates to buffering ability). Now if your water is from a surface source increased turbidity would not be a surprise and is pretty much just an appearence change. If your ph is good I would not worry.

 

[thughes]

It's always cloudy for me. (water source: Great Lakes)

 

[gingerdawg]

I noticed the cloudiness in my new bottle of Starsan too. My spray bottle is cloudy the same day I mix it up.

I vote change in Starsan.

 

[wildwest450]

Use distilled water, it's cheap and never clouds. I wouldn't store anything in star san.


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[rcrabb22]

Use distilled water, it's cheap and never clouds. I wouldn't store anything in star san.


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I'll give that a shot. That would eliminate my city water as change agent.

Cheap is a relative term given for the last 3 years I have not had to buy distilled water at all.

 

[wildwest450]

I'll give that a shot. That would eliminate my city water as change agent.

Cheap is a relative term given for the last 3 years I have not had to buy distilled water at all.

Fair enough, it's cheaper than an infection. I only change my water every 3-4 months, and that's just to do it, it will last a long time.

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[rcrabb22]

Fair enough, it's cheaper than an infection. I only change my water every 3-4 months, and that's just to do it, it will last a long time.

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I agree. I too only changed my supply when I could see particles of ??? collecting in the bottom of the bucket.

 

[wildwest450]

I agree. I too only changed my supply when I could see particles of ??? collecting in the bottom of the bucket.

I get the same stuff, almost looks like little sand particles.

Why, I have no idea, everything that goes in there has been cleaned.


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[rcrabb22]

Use distilled water, it's cheap and never clouds. I wouldn't store anything in star san.


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I bought 5 gal of distilled water and Star San bucket crystal clear going on 2 days now. Something has changed in my water recently so now I know.

Thanks wildwest450!

 

[wildwest450]

I bought 5 gal of distilled water and Star San bucket crystal clear going on 2 days now. Something has changed in my water recently so now I know.

Thanks wildwest450!

Thank me after it last's a month or more.


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[Mayday99]

The EXACT same thing happen to me. Had a 16 oz bottle of star san that took a long time to get through and batches could go a month easy in my homer bucket without getting cloudy.

So I break out a new bottle to have some fresh sanitizer for brew day and whip up a batch. A couple days later I go to refill my blowoff containers with fresh sanitizer, open the bucket and it is completely cloudy after only a couple of days. This never happened before.

I will be interested to see if this happens to others who have bought starsan recently.

 

[rico567]

I never mix Star San in anything but the RO water from the grocery store, which I also brew with. Our well water has very large amounts of iron and calcium and so is unsuitable for either purpose. Star San mixed in our well water turns milky almost immediately, and, more important, the pH goes over 4, which means it's no good. I'm getting down to the bottom of my current bottle of Star San, so it'll be interesting to see how the new batch goes.

 

[mattrennert]

On brew days i bypass my water softener and use our hard tap water. Sometimes I forget to switch back and this hard water makes my starsan cloudy almost instantly. I would usually toss this and mix a new batch with the soft water and its crystal clear. I read in a couple places that hard water will turn starsan cloudy and render it ineffective. Just a thought...

 

[rcrabb22]

On brew days i bypass my water softener and use our hard tap water. Sometimes I forget to switch back and this hard water makes my starsan cloudy almost instantly. I would usually toss this and mix a new batch with the soft water and its crystal clear. I read in a couple places that hard water will turn starsan cloudy and render it ineffective. Just a thought...

My distilled water batch still crystal clear after 2 weeks. It would seem my water changed. Our community gets it's water from a mix of river and well water. Maybe they have changed the percentages of that mix.

With that said my cloudy batches previous were still good as far as PH goes. I have a PH meter and it always read around 2.2 or 2.3 even when cloudy. The blanket statement "if Star San is cloudy, it's no good" is not entirely true.

From the sticky thread in this forum reviewing a podcast with Star San maker Charlie Tally:

"First, we have Star-San. Star-San was Five-Star’s answer to Iodiphor. Star-San is an “acid rinse” when measured at 1oz. per 5 gallons of water. Its chemical composition is a typical soap, like that found in tooth paste called DDBSA (dodecylbenzyl sulfonic acid) + food grade phosphoric acid. It stops working when the pH gets above 3.5 and so if diluted in wort acts as a yeast nutrient/food. Star-San will “last forever” if RO or distilled water is used to mix it and it stays enclosed like in a spray bottle, but it lasts a long time anyway and can be used multiple times or up to about 3 months. The product will turn opaque in iron or manganese rich water."

 

[mattrennert]

Probably from the same podcast - BasicBrewingRadio - 3/27/07
About 37 minute mark:

"If theres minerals in the water, what will happen over a period of time the minerals will start to win out and it will start to create a hard water soap. Hard water soap will make the product go cloudy....You can test the effectiveness by two ways, By the ph or by the Turbidity (cloudieness) of the actuall solution."

I just toss it if it gets cloudy, and at about 50 cents an ounce better safe than sorry.

 

[AiredAle]

What happens is that the phosphoric acid in the Star San reacts with calcium, magnesium, iron or manganese ions in hard water and forms a precipitate of the metal ion and phosphate. Calcium phosphate, for example, which is highly insoluble in water. Too much hardness (metal ions) will precipitate so much phosphate that the pH rises above the level needed for sanitation. If you use softened, distilled or RO water, no problems, since none of the bad actor metal ions are present in those types of water. The sodium in softened water doesn't cause the same problem since sodium phosphate is water soluble, so it doesn't take phosphate out of the StarSan-water mixture.

 

[Mayday99]

Just to revive this old thread, I tried a little expermient. I made a batch of star san (2.5 gal tap water-per 1/2 oz) With a bottle I purchased several years ago. Sealed in my homer bucket and the thing stayed clear for over a month.

I made a new batch using the same procedure with new starsan and again, it was cloudy in a few days. I know using RO water is supposed to help, but the formulation must have changed since tap water+star san purchased years ago=always clear and tap water+newly purchased star san=cloudy (both times I have used it)

 

[wildwest450]

I just got a new bottle of star san about a month ago, it hasn't clouded with distilled water.


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[gingerdawg]

Just to revive this old thread, I tried a little expermient. I made a batch of star san (2.5 gal tap water-per 1/2 oz) With a bottle I purchased several years ago. Sealed in my homer bucket and the thing stayed clear for over a month.

I made a new batch using the same procedure with new starsan and again, it was cloudy in a few days. I know using RO water is supposed to help, but the formulation must have changed since tap water+star san purchased years ago=always clear and tap water+newly purchased star san=cloudy (both times I have used it)

This matches my experiance. My Star-san with tap water clouds up in an hour or so, it used to last days.

 

[EdWort]

I get RO Water from the Glacier dispenser at my local grocery store. I added 1 oz. of starsan to a 5 gallon water bottle back in 2009 and I still have about a gallon left. It's crystal clear and still tests OK. I use this for my spray bottles and when I don't want to whip up a 2.5 gallon batch as my water will turn it cloudy inside 30 minutes.

It's still good for the day, but cloudy.

 

[AiredAle]

A quick question to those who are seeing differences in their StarSan mixtures - does the hardness of your tap water vary? For example, St Paul, MN, near me, gets some water from surface sources, and some from wells, and depending on where you live in the district and what the season is, the hardness changes. If your old bottle was used when the water was soft, and the new bottle was used when the water was hard, this would explain the difference.

As far as I can determine, StarSan is a mixture of phosphoric acid and dodecylbenzene sulfonate, and nothing else. As a chemist, I am puzzled why it would have become more sensitive to the make up water. Not doubtin' just askin'.

 

[mabrungard]

StarSan will remain clear when water with very low hardness is used. So that means that RO, DI, or ion-exchange softened water work very well for making up long-lasting solutions. I have a continuing test of 2 StarSan solutions on my workbench now that are over 2 months old. One used RO water and the other used ion-exchange softened water. Both were mixed to starting pH's of about 2.5. Both are sitting in glasses that are open to the atmosphere. Both are perfectly clear.

The message here is that if you are located in an area with hard water and have a water softener, its OK to use your softened water to mix up your sanitizing solution.

By the way, I had Airedales for 35 years. Great dogs.

 

[Mayday99]

A quick question to those who are seeing differences in their StarSan mixtures - does the hardness of your tap water vary? For example, St Paul, MN, near me, gets some water from surface sources, and some from wells, and depending on where you live in the district and what the season is, the hardness changes. If your old bottle was used when the water was soft, and the new bottle was used when the water was hard, this would explain the difference.

As far as I can determine, StarSan is a mixture of phosphoric acid and dodecylbenzene sulfonate, and nothing else. As a chemist, I am puzzled why it would have become more sensitive to the make up water. Not doubtin' just askin'.

I have wondered the same thing. Maybe something with the "inert" ingredients? All I know is I used the same 16oz bottle of Star San for years, and all the batches I made with it (about 30 or so I guess) never clouded and every batch from a newer bottle has clouded.

Ed, I wish I had an RO machine like that near me!! I wonder if a 6 gallon BB would fit in there.

 

[EdWort]

Ed, I wish I had an RO machine like that near me!! I wonder if a 6 gallon BB would fit in there.

The 6 Gallon Better Bottle fits just fine. The jug you see in my pic is a 5 gallon water bottle sold by the same grocery store for about $7 and it has a lid and handle molded in.

The date on the batch of Starsan is 7/7/09 and still tests good. I have about a gallon left.

 

[gingerdawg]

The message here is that if you are located in an area with hard water and have a water softener, its OK to use your softened water to mix up your sanitizing solution.

We are aware that starsan will remain clear in RO or distilled water.
The other message here is that Starsan has changed. I have been mixing batches in tap water for years that stayed clear for about a week to 10 days. The new bottle of StarSan clouds in less than an hour. My water report has not changed. Others have posted similar results.

 

[mabrungard]

Interesting point regarding more recent StarSan clouding. My testing was from my big bottle that I've almost used up. Its at least 4 yrs old. There may be some validity to that finding for new StarSan???

 

[rcrabb22]

Interesting point regarding more recent StarSan clouding. My testing was from my big bottle that I've almost used up. Its at least 4 yrs old. There may be some validity to that finding for new StarSan???

I have composed an email to send to 5-Star detailing the "premature" clouding I and others have experienced with our tap water recently versus previous solutions. I hope for a timely answer.

One suggestion I entertained for the quick clouding behavior was that my water has changed. Since a component of our water supply comes from a river I couldn't rule it out. I am mixing a 2 gallon solution today using tap water and will observe the results. Cloudy or not, the PH seems to be stable over the short term but I will keep this solution around measuring it's PH daily.

I did make a 5 gal bucket of solution using distilled water and as expected it has remained clear and PH below 2.5 since May 13, 2011.

 

[Mayday99]

I have composed an email to send to 5-Star detailing the "premature" clouding I and others have experienced with our tap water recently versus previous solutions. I hope for a timely answer.

One suggestion I entertained for the quick clouding behavior was that my water has changed. Since a component of our water supply comes from a river I couldn't rule it out. I am mixing a 2 gallon solution today using tap water and will observe the results. Cloudy or not, the PH seems to be stable over the short term but I will keep this solution around measuring it's PH daily.

I did make a 5 gal bucket of solution using distilled water and as expected it has remained clear and PH below 2.5 since May 13, 2011.

Thanks for sending the email, let us know if you hear anything.

 

[rico567]

I have composed an email to send to 5-Star detailing the "premature" clouding I and others have experienced with our tap water recently versus previous solutions. I hope for a timely answer.

One suggestion I entertained for the quick clouding behavior was that my water has changed. Since a component of our water supply comes from a river I couldn't rule it out. I am mixing a 2 gallon solution today using tap water and will observe the results. Cloudy or not, the PH seems to be stable over the short term but I will keep this solution around measuring it's PH daily.

I did make a 5 gal bucket of solution using distilled water and as expected it has remained clear and PH below 2.5 since May 13, 2011.

I'm confused. From the information you've given, 1) your current SS is clouding up in solution with your tap water. 2) It doesn't cloud when placed in solution with distilled water. These facts indicate that a change in your tap water is the culprit. Therefore, how is Five Star going to be able to answer the question of why it's clouding up? They have no access to your local tap water to conduct tests, even if they were so inclined. The local water utility might be a better source of information.

 

[rcrabb22]

I'm confused. From the information you've given, 1) your current SS is clouding up in solution with your tap water. 2) It doesn't cloud when placed in solution with distilled water. These facts indicate that a change in your tap water is the culprit. Therefore, how is Five Star going to be able to answer the question of why it's clouding up? They have no access to your local tap water to conduct tests, even if they were so inclined. The local water utility might be a better source of information.

I have spoke with the water dept. and they have told me nothing has changed as far as their processing or mix ratio of river to well water. A river is constantly changing given runoff volumes and such, so one would expect that over the 4 years I have been using Starsan this behavior would have happened before.

An alternative explanation *COULD BE* something in Starsan has changed that reacts differently and becomes more cloudy when mixed with tap water with minerals. I am not saying that is the culprit but is a possibility.

I open the closed 2 gal bucket of Starsan I mixed this weekend. It was fairly clear but I could see several white "strands" suspended in the mix each about 1/4 to 1/2" long.

I took a PH reading and it came in at 2.1. It started at 1.9 as I mixed it a little strong at 1/2 oz to 2 gallons of cold water. I then stirred the solution and it became more cloudy and the PH dropped to 2.0. At first thought it looks like the Starsan didn't completely mix with the water and it was separating.

I am not sure this test reveals anything earth shattering and as long as the PH stays below 3.5 for a reasonable period of time I am not really complaining. I am experiencing a different behavior then I have before and would like to understand it.

 

[rico567]

I have spoke with the water dept. and they have told me nothing has changed as far as their processing or mix ratio of river to well water. A river is constantly changing given runoff volumes and such, so one would expect that over the 4 years I have been using Starsan this behavior would have happened before.

An alternative explanation *COULD BE* something in Starsan has changed that reacts differently and becomes more cloudy when mixed with tap water with minerals. I am not saying that is the culprit but is a possibility.

I open the closed 2 gal bucket of Starsan I mixed this weekend. It was fairly clear but I could see several white "strands" suspended in the mix each about 1/4 to 1/2" long.

I took a PH reading and it came in at 2.1. It started at 1.9 as I mixed it a little strong at 1/2 oz to 2 gallons of cold water. I then stirred the solution and it became more cloudy and the PH dropped to 2.0. At first thought it looks like the Starsan didn't completely mix with the water and it was separating.

I am not sure this test reveals anything earth shattering and as long as the PH stays below 3.5 for a reasonable period of time I am not really complaining. I am experiencing a different behavior then I have before and would like to understand it.

OK, I think I understand now. As long as the pH stays <3, I suppose it'll all be OK in the final issue.

 

[Landshark67]

We are aware that starsan will remain clear in RO or distilled water.
The other message here is that Starsan has changed. I have been mixing batches in tap water for years that stayed clear for about a week to 10 days. The new bottle of StarSan clouds in less than an hour. My water report has not changed. Others have posted similar results.

I have well water and a water softening system. I've noticed no difference in my Starsan mixes and I've gone through two bottles since April. Water stays clear for about 3 days if open to air. In a corney keg, it lasts months. Same for spray bottles.

I use Starsan for all sorts of cleaning/sanitizing around the house. It's great for mtn bike water bottles, camelbacks and granite counter top cleaning.

 

[rollinred]

I battled this issue for a while after finding out that cloudy Star San means there was high mineral content in the water. I bought PH strips just to be sure but also some distilled water so I could store it. Well, 2 days later the Star San was cloudy even with distilled water.

The worst part, I had a lot of infected batches.

I have since switched to Iodophor and not had one infection. I mix up 1.5 gallons each time and use minimal amounts of Iodophor and have no problem saying that I will probably never use Star San again. I know a lot of people like it and I won't knock it because it obviously works for most but I can not get the stuff to work right.

 

[Mayday99]

I battled this issue for a while after finding out that cloudy Star San means there was high mineral content in the water. I bought PH strips just to be sure but also some distilled water so I could store it. Well, 2 days later the Star San was cloudy even with distilled water.

The worst part, I had a lot of infected batches.

I have since switched to Iodophor and not had one infection. I mix up 1.5 gallons each time and use minimal amounts of Iodophor and have no problem saying that I will probably never use Star San again. I know a lot of people like it and I won't knock it because it obviously works for most but I can not get the stuff to work right.

Do you remember around the time you bought the StarSan in question?

I think I bought mine around March of this year. Based on some of the descriptions here it sounds POSSIBLE a bad batch went out. Like I said earlier, out of 30 or so batches of starsan made over the years, all with tap, only 2 clouded, and they were at different times and both from the same bottle, so it seems more likely than not that it is not a water issue in my case.

 

[rollinred]

Do you remember around the time you bought the StarSan in question?

I think I bought mine around March of this year. Based on some of the descriptions here it sounds POSSIBLE a bad batch went out. Like I said earlier, out of 30 or so batches of starsan made over the years, all with tap, only 2 clouded, and they were at different times and both from the same bottle, so it seems more likely than not that it is not a water issue in my case.

Sorry, Mine was purchased 3 years ago because it was for the third batch I ever brewed. From the 3rd batch to the 18th batch I had 3 good batches and the rest were terrible and at least 3/4 were infected.

I nearly gave up brewing because of how pissed off and frustrated I was. I started watching my process more and then my wife's uncle was up and brewed with me one day. He mentioned that the star-san turned cloudy right away and was surprised. I had no idea at all that star san would react with hard water like that. My PH level was fine according to strips but still got a bad batch after that.

Switched to Iodophor and every batch since has been great.

 

[gingerdawg]

Do you remember around the time you bought the StarSan in question?

I think I bought mine around March of this year. Based on some of the descriptions here it sounds POSSIBLE a bad batch went out. Like I said earlier, out of 30 or so batches of starsan made over the years, all with tap, only 2 clouded, and they were at different times and both from the same bottle, so it seems more likely than not that it is not a water issue in my case.

I don't remember exactly when I got my bottle of 'insty-cloud" Star-san, but it was sometime around January or February.

 

[rcrabb22]

I don't remember exactly when I got my bottle of 'insty-cloud" Star-san, but it was sometime around January or February.

+1 I used a Christmas gift certificate to place an order and the Starsan was part was included in that purchase