Water Modification Videos, TH's Spreadsheet

[Netflyer]

Howdy folks, long time no brewing. Looking to get back into it this weekend (thank goodness) and have a quick question. I use a Berkey Black filter for my water and it states that it removes 99.999% of Chlorine, am I in effect needing to add chlorine back in?

Yeah, it is a chemistry issue that boils down to the a lousy 'common name' of Chlorine to a very large compound of either Trichloroisocyanuric acid, Trichloro-s-triazinetrione or the dichloro version of the same compound. This compound is used by water treatment facilities to kill bad stuff in the water (like fecal streph, etc.) The name Chlorine was first an element on the periodic table before it was taken and used as common name for a common compound. An element means it is at its most basic form (not counting protons, electrons, neutrons, or people from who-ville) Chloride ions are what we want to 'count' in our beer water recipes. Chlorine carries the chemical symbol Cl also by the way. So, when we add salt which is an ionic compound of Sodium (symbol Na) + Chloride (symbol Cl) the water dissociates the compound NaCl into sodium and chloride ions... that is what you 'count' in your water recipe.

Like LiquidGold said, 'you don't want chlorine' but you do want chloride

Filter out the chlorine compound and add back (if necessary) NON-IODIZED salt. You can find it in the spice section typically, be sure you read, you don't want iodine or yellow pruscate(sp?) of soda in it... just Salt, nothing but NaCl ...

Good Luck!

 

[jimba009]

I really need to send my water to WARD and get a precise measurement of what is coming out of my filter so I know where I am. Da%n hobby, causing me to expand my horizons and such and such...

 

[jimba009]

just got off the phone with the berkey people... they tell me it does not remove any of our minerals that we so cherish. good to know! still gonna get my water tested...

edit: went to the local K-rogers and it was tough finding salt that did not have some tipe of lube (snicker). found sea-salt from morton's, that was the only one that did not have the yellow stuff or some type of silicone (another snicker). anybody else find this?

thanks for the awesome spreadsheet TH, and freakin sweet videos bobbym, this has cut into homework time A LOT!

 

[bootney]

Just posting for the sake of conversation and looking for insight. I read this whole thread and watched the videos and it's all been very educational. When I get home I'll send out for a water test but our city water doesn't taste good but I'll check it out any way.

After consulting Palmer I have decided to do a twenty minute dough in at 104° and then do a sacch rest for sixty minutes at 153°. I am planning to use distilled water unless my water comes back as acceptable. I believe I read I should add any minerals to the sacch infusion is this correct? Now lets assume I have four gallons total in my mash tun and used 2 gallons for dough in and 2 gallons for sacch, (rough estimate because I don't have my actual mash numbers in front of me) do I average out the minerals through four gallons or just add to the two gallon sacch infusion?

I had a hard time trying to answer this myself so I thought I'd ask.

One last question that I couldn't figure out on my own and that is about the boil. According to the spread sheet it says to add X to boil, now is that added to the sparge water or to the wort boil? Thanks for the assistance.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Awesome videos, Bobby! I've been wanting to try water adjustments for a while to get the most out of my beers. Luckily the Truckee Meadows Water Authority has an incredibly nice biochemist who sent me all of the necessary information for free! :rockin:

Since this is my first time trying this I want to get it right. Brewing an Irish red next and I want it to be malt-tastic. Should I model the water profile off a UK city (Edinburgh, Yorkshire, Dublin?) or just go for broke and adjust until the spreadsheet gives the "OK" for a malty profile?

Also, do these additions take care of mash pH (i.e keeping it at proper levels) or is it okay/necessary to use 5.2 buffer?

 

[bootney]

I think?

One last question that I couldn't figure out on my own and that is about the boil. According to the spread sheet it says to add X to boil, now is that added to the sparge water or to the wort boil? Thanks for the assistance.

I just didn't scroll down and read "Notes: Add mash salts directly to the mash. Add sparge salts directly to the boil (not the sparge)."

 

[bootney]

Alright after a night of reading and working with the calculator I'm confident that I have that figured out. I still can't figure out why additions wouldn't be added to the spage water instead of the boil. Is this because the mash will filter out the salts or change the PH of the mash? The other issue I have is if I have 3 gallons of sparge water and I'm to add the right amount of salts for those three gallons to the boil what if there's further absorption of the sparge through the mash and I don't yield my initial three gallons for the boil. If I'm way off here please feel free to ridicule me

 

[Bobby_M]

The reason is because salts cannot be added directly to water because the pH is too high to dissolve them. The result is that most of the salts settle to the bottom on your HLT instead of getting into the mash. Once you dough in, the mash goes acid enough to dissolve salts. Same goes for the boil... wort is acidic compared to water.

Once the grain has taken in the liquid it can hold, it won't grab any more. No worries there.

 

[bootney]

Thanks for the reply.

Once you dough in, the mash goes acid enough to dissolve salts.

So when adding salt to the water do I do it for the dough in rest, the sacch rest, or both. This is the last thing I am hung up on. Thanks again.

 

[Netflyer]

The reason is because salts cannot be added directly to water because the pH is too high to dissolve them. The result is that most of the salts settle to the bottom on your HLT instead of getting into the mash. Once you dough in, the mash goes acid enough to dissolve salts. Same goes for the boil... wort is acidic compared to water.

Once the grain has taken in the liquid it can hold, it won't grab any more. No worries there.

Really?! Do you know of a reference where it shows the solubility of the salts we use vs. pH ? I find it is more temperature related than pH. I've been adding my salts to the mash water which I use about 2.5 gallons. I put the salts in, heat the water to strike temp and stir the whole time and the salts dissolve just fine.

So now you have me wondering, which salt(s) have a hard time with what pH's... Again, just anecdotally table salt (NaCl) dissolves in most people's tap water regardless of their pH, mine is 8.0 straight out of the tap... Epsom salts is another salt we all use at home and I've never heard of dissolving problems, but again, that is in hotter water. Baking soda (NaHCO3) dissolves no problem in any pH. So what is left, Gypsom, Calcium Carbonate, and Chalk. Which of those need a low pH to dissolve?

Before I started using salts my Mash was not hitting the pH targets, I used 5.2 but I think it is worthless as it buffers at 6.0+ ... now using no 5.2 and using the TH spreadsheet and adding the salts to the mash water only, not the sparge water, I'm nailing my pH targets and brewing SRM's of freakin' 5 in water that starts at a pH of 8! So there is no question salts work and are worth doing. I never read that your supposed to add the mash salts to the mash though and have had great luck adding them to the mash water and stirring as it heats up to dissolve the salts...

 

[jimba009]

Thinkin about performing a multi-rest mash, would I distribute my salts for the mash with my additional infusions?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Really?! Do you know of a reference where it shows the solubility of the salts we use vs. pH ? I find it is more temperature related than pH. I've been adding my salts to the mash water which I use about 2.5 gallons. I put the salts in, heat the water to strike temp and stir the whole time and the salts dissolve just fine.

I think you have something there. (Not to crap on your parade, Bobby_M.)

Salts dissolve best at a pH of 7. A salt, NaCl for instance, will dissolve into the solution by bonding with the OH- and H+ components of H2O.

NaCl + H20 --> (Na+)(OH-) + (H+)(Cl-)

An acidic solution will have a higher [H+]. This will slow the solubility of the salt as there are less available water ions to recombine with the salt ions.

I only remember this stuff because I'm still in school. I'm sure I'll forget it soon enough ^_^

 

[Duffer]

Can anyone recommend a water profile for a Belgian Wit. Wifee-poo wants an Apricot Wit. Roughly SRM=6 and IBU=18

 

[Netflyer]

I think you have something there. (Not to crap on your parade, Bobby_M.)

Salts dissolve best at a pH of 7. A salt, NaCl for instance, will dissolve into the solution by bonding with the OH- and H+ components of H2O.

NaCl + H20 --> (Na+)(OH-) + (H+)(Cl-)

An acidic solution will have a higher [H+]. This will slow the solubility of the salt as there are less available water ions to recombine with the salt ions.

I only remember this stuff because I'm still in school. I'm sure I'll forget it soon enough ^_^

I just want to mention here that I meant the large question in the nicest, most curious way. Bobby_M is one of the reasons my beers are good. If it weren't for his video's and in conjuction w/TH's spreadsheet I would still be brewin' w/5.2 and crossing my fingers

So the question is more of 'curiosity' and not 'confrontation' just want to note that

:rockin:

 

[Duffer]

Can anyone recommend a water profile for a Belgian Wit. Wifee-poo wants an Apricot Wit. Roughly SRM=6 and IBU=18

Ok, well.... yeow! Answered my own question. Kinda.

Found a list of Belgian water profiles by Dave Draper. They are ALL OVER THE MAP!

None are in the Pilsner range, but city-dependent, SO4 could be 8ppm and could be 124ppm. Ca could be 8 or 138. Cl- could be 26 or 206!

I think I'll run with the Luik (East Belgium) profile as I can hit all the numbers on top of my home water, the Cl- is way higher than the SO4 (very malty) and I can push the additions around nicely so the RA of the mash is really low (SRM=6ish) and the rest into the boiler!

Ca=98, Mg=14, Na=110, Cl=142, SO4=14 and I can get RA=7

Thanx Bobby!

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I just want to mention here that I meant the large question in the nicest, most curious way. Bobby_M is one of the reasons my beers are good. If it weren't for his video's and in conjuction w/TH's spreadsheet I would still be brewin' w/5.2 and crossing my fingers

So the question is more of 'curiosity' and not 'confrontation' just want to note that

:rockin:

Oh jeez, no I wasn't taking sides or egging anybody on I just felt you had a good point, Netflyer. My parade crapping comment was just me being silly. I, too, owe the quality of my beers in part to Bobby_M and the other talented brewers on HBT.

 

[Netflyer]

Settled, we both give the 'We're not worthy' salute to Bobby_m but still curious about the solubilities of the salts we work with vs. pH

 

[Bobby_M]

No disclaimers necessary as I've fallen into the trap of regurgitating crap that I've probably heard or read somewhere else, maybe, from someone. I think it might have been Kai Troester.

Yup, and it was specific to Chalk.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ed_chalk#About_chalk_and_the_carbonate_system

Carry on.

 

[Daddymem]

Now that I've got some experience brewing using this, I have a question. My beers have all been hoppy IPAs and Pale Ales so the Chrloride to Sulfate ratio has been bitter or very bitter. Is there a guide to figure where a given beer would fit in the given parameters? BU/GU ratio? I've got a Cream of Three Crops to brew up and was wondering where that would fit.

TIA

 

[Bobby_M]

I never go too far into the malty side. In fact, I've been using a 1:1 ratio if it's a malty beer style.

 

[Daddymem]

How does this look for Cream of Three Crops?

BIAB, full volume mash.
IBU=16.1
SRM=3


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
CaCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 13.85 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 2.02 / 0
CaSO4: 5 / 0
CaCl2: 6.03 / 0
MgSO4: 7 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 70 / 70
Mg: 14 / 14
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 64 / 64
SO4: 109 / 109
CaCO3: 34 / 34

RA (mash only): -24 (3 to 8 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.58 (Bitter)

 

[JMass]

Hey Daddymem, I'm close by in Marion. I'll have to join the local club. I'm new to water adjustments, but what you did looks fine.

Thanks TH, I like your spreadsheet and want to use it for my next brew.

Here is my messing around with my numbers. I think my water is similar to daddymem's.
The numbers are a bit weird as I'm averaging 3 different public samples.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 6.066666667
Mg: 2.466666667
Na: 10
Cl: 10.1
SO4: 10.33333333
CaCO3: 17

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 2.2 / 6
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 1 / 2.727272727
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 2.727272727
MgSO4: 1 / 2.727272727
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 87 / 87
Mg: 14 / 14
Na: 10 / 10
Cl: 68 / 68
SO4: 57 / 57
CaCO3: 76 / 76

RA (mash only): 6 (6 to 11 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 1.19 (Balanced)

 

[Inhiding]

I need to add some Lactic Acid, but the LHBS was out, so i picked up some acid malt. How much acid malt should I use in place of 3ml of lactic acid (88%).

The recipe has 11.15 lbs of grain. Belgian Wit, 4 SRM, 6.5 gallons. Currently I am using 1/4 lb (~2.19%)

Is this enough? too little??

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[TripleHopped]

Looking for some input.

I'm brewing an APA and used Randy Moshers numbers (110, 18, 17, 50, 360, 57).

This is a 5.5 gallon with 5 SRM and 40 IBU's.

This page can be used for copying and pasting

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 1
Mg: 1
Na: 8
Cl: 5
SO4: 3
CaCO3: 12

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.8 / 4.1
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 1.25 / 1.067708333
CaSO4: 4 / 3.416666667
CaCl2: 1 / 0.854166667
MgSO4: 2.75 / 2.348958333
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0.5 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 94 / 94
Mg: 15 / 15
Na: 19 / 14
Cl: 48 / 41
SO4: 185 / 185
CaCO3: 53 / 53

RA (mash only): -23 (3 to 8 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.22 (Very Bitter)

 

[bootney]

Thinkin about performing a multi-rest mash, would I distribute my salts for the mash with my additional infusions?

See post #134.

 

[Daddymem]

Going to brew a BIG RIS to age for 5 years. I want to get this one as spot on as possible. The recipe SRM=54. Here are my current numbers:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
CaCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 3.15
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 8.3 / 4.36
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 3 / 1.58
NaHCO3: 11.8 / 6.2
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 148 / 148
Mg: 13 / 13
Na: 149 / 149
Cl: 8 / 8
SO4: 56 / 56
CaCO3: 607 / 607

RA (mash only): 493 (46 to 50 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.15 (Very Bitter)


I may play with the numbers to get measurable teaspoon increments, but I wanted to get into the right ball park first. Seems like a lot to add!

 

[remilard]

That is a lot to add. With your water your mash pH would be around 5.4-5.5 which fine. You probably want to add some calcium though, as CaCl or CaSO4.

 

[motobrewer]

it's really not that much to add, considering he's basically starting with RO water

 

[remilard]

it's really not that much to add, considering he's basically starting with RO water

It's more alkalinity than any commercial brewery is brewing with, assuming he is adding chalk to the mash. Even if you found water with that much alkalinity, a lot of it would precipitate in the HLT.

So it is way more than any rational brewer is brewing with. Whether or not that is too much is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

 

[Daddymem]

Then what would you suggest to us "irrational" brewers? To get the residual alkalinity up to fit my SRM I had to go that high, then I adjusted the minerals that were lacking while watching Cl to SO4 ratio. This is why I posted on here, it seems a lot...maybe I am "rational" after all?

This is the malt bill for 6 gallons:
19.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM)
1.50 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Pale Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM)

I guess the question is, the bulk of the SRM is coming from only 4# of dark malts out of 23# total. Should there be a reduction in the residual alkalinity in instances like this? If so, how?...estimate SRM without them? I've always had an issue building my water because it is so devoid of minerals. To get up to suggested levels, I would have to add a lot of salts in the spreadsheet. Typically I just hit my SRM then adjust Cl/SO4 ratio and not worry about the other minerals and it does OK.

I know from experience, my water is good for malty beers without adjustment. If I don't adjust for bitter beers, the hops come out muddied. Same recipe brewed with two different waters came out totally different and that was extract.

I'm halfway through #2 of Palmer and Jamil's water extravaganza episodes, perhaps they just haven't hit on this yet.