Water Modification Videos, TH's Spreadsheet

[-TH-]

I'm using Open Office. I use the 11 alkalinity from my water test sample. Would the Bicarbonate value be 9.5 as Hardness in my water test sample?

OK I see. You entered correctly - I was thinking your 11 was HCO3 because of your copy and pasted data showed 11 as HCO3. But that page of the spreadsheet is also looking at L3 to show the label HCO3 or CaCO3 depending on the value of L3.

I will see if I can download open office and fix the glitch for future users. Looks like you have your copy working properly.

Thanks!

 

[Daddymem]

Ah yes, sorry, I was flipping back and forth between Alkalinity and Bicarbonate since the numbers were so close. Just wanted to get a ballpark. Forgot to change it back when I copy/pasted.

 

[Yooper]

OK I see. You entered correctly - I was thinking your 11 was HCO3 because of your copy and pasted data showed 11 as HCO3. But that page of the spreadsheet is also looking at L3 to show the label HCO3 or CaCO3 depending on the value of L3.

I will see if I can download open office and fix the glitch for future users. Looks like you have your copy working properly.

Thanks!

When I use the web version, it works fine. But when I use the Open Office version, I also have the same issue. When I use the "alkalinity" as CaCO3, it gives me a very strange (wrong) value for RA. The web version gives me a RA of 151. But the spreadsheet in open office gives me a RA of -56 and "error" in the alkalinity box in results.

 

[Daddymem]

Click in the I22 cell. In the formula change "1" to "true" and "2" to "false". That takes care of it for Open Office.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

This thread is awesome! I don't think I've been this excited since I saw my first girlfriend naked!

I felt I was ready to start into the business of my water profile, and I contacted my water company last week. I didn't have a clue what I would do with the report when i got it, and had envisioned a lot of fruitless searching. This is a great video series and a terrific spreadsheet utility. You two guys have created a masterpiece between you!

I'm just so stoked now for getting my water report and trying to do something with it!

A couple of quick noob questions.

A) for the salts. Would my local pharmacy be the best source to buy?
B) The water report from the water company. Is that a constant? Or does it change over time. I guess I can always ask him, but what the hell, I'm all excited right now!

 

[LeeF]

I made a modification to the spreadsheet so it converts the grams to teaspoons and looks like this. I found it useful since I'm using teaspoons to measure my salts.
After posting, I didn't realize it would look so small.(That's what she said)

 

[Daddymem]

Nice LeeF. Just a thought, maybe work backwards. Enter teaspoons and have it convert to grams above. That way you can use sensible quantities like 1/8 ths of teaspoons. That'd be slicker than a green bean.

 

[LeeF]

That is a good idea. Just have the teaspoon amount feed into the grams cell. I've got 1/8th and 1/16th(pinch and dash) spoons and adjust the grams until I got close to a nice even 1/16th number in the teaspoon cell.

 

[-TH-]

A) for the salts. Would my local pharmacy be the best source to buy?

I bought chalk, gypsum, and calcium chloride at my LHBS.
I bought Epsom Salt at a pharmacy.
I bought baking soda and non-iodized salt (canning salt is a good example) at a grocery store.

 

[Daddymem]

So I just got my gypsum from AHS and on the package it says use to harden water (I need) and lower water pH (Mine is already pretty low, I could use it higher). So with those adjustment quantities I posted, should I be concerned how much lower my pH would go? I use 5.2, as long as that can still handle it, I'd be ok?

 

[Bobby_M]

I don't think I'd ever try to match the typical burton profile. 28 grams of gypsum? Geez. I'd stick with a Calcium under 200 and Sulfate under 400. The prediction of mash pH is realized in the 'ideal for xx SRM". If your target recipe SRM is 15 and the sheet is saying "ideal for 6-8", your mash might go too acidic. You bring up the RA/SRM range by adding baking soda if you've already got enough chloride.

 

[Daddymem]

Now you see why I am posting. Any online locations for some more reasonable water profiles for some of the basic ales and lagers?

I've got one of Ed's Haus Pale Ales and two AHS American IPAs to brew up and I'd like to try my hand at water adjustment. I've done the Pale Ale before and there is something just slightly off and I am guessing it may be the hops are a bit muddy from my unadulterated water profile. And based on my experience with that hoppy IPA tasting very muddy but bitter still, I need to adjust for that too.

I've got Mosher's Pale Ale and I think the adjustments seem reasonable for that. But a decent IPA profile is what I need now.

Thanks Bobby M and TH

 

[Bobby_M]

I look at Mosher's pale ale profile as applicable to any hop-forward beer whether it's APA, Bitters, IPA, India Browns, hoppy ambers, etc.

 

[Daddymem]

Thanks, then I could go with the first adjustment for both recipes.

 

[Icebrewer]

hey guys
My water is very low in minerals according to the local water report. The report does not include alkalinity as CaCO3 or bicarbonates.
my water profile:
Ca 2.6 mg/l
Mg 0.92 mg/l
Na 7.3 mg/l
Chloride 10.9 mg/l
Sulphate 1.7 mg/l
pH 8,5

So I figured that I could find out my water hardness as CaO according to this german water hardness equation: °1dH=(Ca(mg/l)x2,497+Mg(mg/l)x4,116)/17,9 = 0.57 °dH (CaO 10mg/l) which equals 10.53 CaCO3 mg/l according to http://www.cactus2000.de/uk/unit/masswas.shtml
I was wondering if somebody can confirm if this is right or am I totally delusional?

 

[-TH-]

So I just got my gypsum from AHS and on the package it says use to harden water (I need) and lower water pH (Mine is already pretty low, I could use it higher). So with those adjustment quantities I posted, should I be concerned how much lower my pH would go? I use 5.2, as long as that can still handle it, I'd be ok?

Actually, the pH of your WATER is irrelevent. It is the pH of your MASH that's important. Mash pH can be predicted using these two factors: the residual alkalinity of your water and the color of your beer (from recipe). That is why on the spreadsheet you adjust your salts to get the RA to a level that matches your beer color. This will ensure that your mash pH is in the proper range. This also eliminates the need to use 5.2 buffer. BTW Gypsum will indeed lower the pH of your mash, as evidenced by the way it affects your RA (lowering it).

Hope that helps. Let us know how your beers turn out!

 

[Daddymem]

If I follow your advise above to adjust just SRM, my bare water would be fine with 6-11 SRM vs 5-14 target SRM. But, the sulfate to chloride ratio is off giving me very malty at 2.05. So I want to lower that ratio towards the bitter side, this is a Pale Ale after all. I need to either lower Cloride or raise Sulfate. Additions are what we are doing so I punch in 0.5 grams of Epsom Salt and I get a ratio of 0.73 "Very Bitter" and SRM 6-11, both acceptable.

So am I done? The Calcium, Magnesium, and Sulfate deficiencies are ignored?

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
CaCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 0 / 0
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0.5 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 2 / 2
Mg: 3 / 3
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 8 / 8
SO4: 11 / 11
CaCO3: 11 / 11

RA (mash only): 8 (6 to 11 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.73 (Bitter)

 

[martinworswick]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attach...all-grain-5-10-gall-centennial_hops_ratio.jpg

i get the adjusting for srm, and i think i've got the chloride/sulphate ratio- should i use something like the above graph to determine where an intended beer falls and adjust accordingly?so if its extra hoppy i want extra bitter and so on?

 

[-TH-]

If I follow your advise above to adjust just SRM, my bare water would be fine with 6-11 SRM vs 5-14 target SRM. But, the sulfate to chloride ratio is off giving me very malty at 2.05. So I want to lower that ratio towards the bitter side, this is a Pale Ale after all. I need to either lower Cloride or raise Sulfate. Additions are what we are doing so I punch in 0.5 grams of Epsom Salt and I get a ratio of 0.73 "Very Bitter" and SRM 6-11, both acceptable.

So am I done? The Calcium, Magnesium, and Sulfate deficiencies are ignored?

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
CaCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 0 / 0
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0.5 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 2 / 2
Mg: 3 / 3
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 8 / 8
SO4: 11 / 11
CaCO3: 11 / 11

RA (mash only): 8 (6 to 11 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.73 (Bitter)

Ideally you want to: A) Match your RA to your SRM, B) Get your Cl to SO4 ratio to match your style, and C) Get your individual mineral levels (Ca, etc.) to within recommended ranges.

Playing with your numbers for about 3 minutes I got this:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
CaCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 2 / 0
CaSO4: 1 / 0
CaCl2: 2 / 0
MgSO4: 3 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 61 / 61
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 45 / 45
SO4: 69 / 69
CaCO3: 56 / 56

RA (mash only): 5 (6 to 10 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.65 (Bitter)

 

[-TH-]

hey guys
My water is very low in minerals according to the local water report. The report does not include alkalinity as CaCO3 or bicarbonates.
my water profile:
Ca 2.6 mg/l
Mg 0.92 mg/l
Na 7.3 mg/l
Chloride 10.9 mg/l
Sulphate 1.7 mg/l
pH 8,5

So I figured that I could find out my water hardness as CaO according to this german water hardness equation: °1dH=(Ca(mg/l)x2,497+Mg(mg/l)x4,116)/17,9 = 0.57 °dH (CaO 10mg/l) which equals 10.53 CaCO3 mg/l according to http://www.cactus2000.de/uk/unit/masswas.shtml
I was wondering if somebody can confirm if this is right or am I totally delusional?

Hardness as CaCO3 and Alkalinity as CaCO3 are different. For an explanation, go here and scroll about 2/3 down:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html
Palmers says you should be able to call your water dept. and ask for an engineer and they should have either Alkalinity as CaCO3 or Bicarbonate HCO3.

 

[Daddymem]

Ok, so adjust to the "Recommended Range" values. I was trying to match the Mosher's profile and it all got wonky. I got negative RA and ridiculous quantities of salts to add.

Thanks for your time and experience TH.

 

[-TH-]

When I use the web version, it works fine. But when I use the Open Office version, I also have the same issue. When I use the "alkalinity" as CaCO3, it gives me a very strange (wrong) value for RA. The web version gives me a RA of 151. But the spreadsheet in open office gives me a RA of -56 and "error" in the alkalinity box in results.

I now have an OpenOffice version on the website that works: www.ezwatercalculator.com

 

[TripleHopped]

Excellent work Bobby M and -TH-.
If this does not make sense I'm blaming it on the Percocet and tying with my left hand.

I have a few questions.

Is it important for me to adjust my water for doing extract brews with or without steeping grains?
So far I have just used RO water and put in a brewing salt package from my LHBS.

I'm assuming my water for doing a partial mash should be modified?

I did a google search for Brewater and tried down loading it. I think the message said it does not support 64 bit. Does that sound right?
Is there anything I can do to make it work?

Thanks..
from
"The one arm brewer"

 

[Bobby_M]

You can get away with using straight RO for extract brews. I'd definitely build up the profile for partial mash, especially if you get more than half the fermentables from grain.

 

[TripleHopped]

Thanks for the reply.

 

[SmallFloorBrewing]

Actually, the pH of your WATER is irrelevent. It is the pH of your MASH that's important. Mash pH can be predicted using these two factors: the residual alkalinity of your water and the color of your beer (from recipe). That is why on the spreadsheet you adjust your salts to get the RA to a level that matches your beer color. This will ensure that your mash pH is in the proper range. This also eliminates the need to use 5.2 buffer. BTW Gypsum will indeed lower the pH of your mash, as evidenced by the way it affects your RA (lowering it).

Hope that helps. Let us know how your beers turn out!

So does this mean that, if I am brewing a 5.4 SRM beer, and my residual alkalinity is good for beers between 4-7 SRM (according to the spreadsheet), that my pH is within range?

I'd still be tempted to use the 5.2 just in case the spreadsheet isn't accurate enough.

 

[Bobby_M]

I wouldn't craft the water profile and use 5.2 at the same time. One or the other. Ever since I started using this spreadsheet (which is based completely on Palmer's data), my mash pH has measured in suitable range.

 

[Daddymem]

Doing my first brew with a water adjustment today. Thanks Bobby M and TH. I was surprised at how small the quantities were physically. Grams is small! The 1# packages should last me quite some time.
2 chalk
1 gypsum
2 Calcium Chrloride
3 Epsom Salt

As you suggested TH. The RA fits the SRM and it listed as bitter which is good since this is an IPA. Thanks again!

 

[Mirilis]

Great write up Bobby, I just have a couple questions as im still a nub trying to get into water.

1) I saw an earlier post in this thread.. pH 5.2 stabilizer isnt needed at all correct? I mean as long as the beer SRM matches the range in the alkalinity.

2) I run my water through a 0.5 micron carbon filter before I use it for brewing. What effect does that have on the other minerals? I use it specifically because I had an issue with chloromine once and it cant boil out. (plus my water tastes like PVC pipe).

 

[Bobby_M]

A buddy of mine had both pre and post filter water tested the the Ca dropped by 3ppm and the Total Alkalinity dropped from 82 to 72ppm. For the most part, the filter does nothing to dissolved minerals.