Water help

[GHB]

Hey folks, just got my water back from ward labs, can someone please help me adjust for an IPA. Iv been to the adjusting sites but honestly I dont even know where to start with the additions. Thanks for any help. Cheers

GHB

ph 7.7
sodium 45
potassium 2
calcium 62
magnesium 11
total hardness 206
sulfates 18
chloride 12
carbonates 0
Bicarbonates 258
Total alkalinity 212

 

[bluntenbrew]

I don't have much knowledge on this subject, but like you I did finally get some info on my water profile. I know my ph is around yours (7.5) but my calcium hardnes is higher 310. So it seems that with both have to lower ph alittle and I have todo something about the hardness level. I boil and filter right now so hopefully the hardness is alittle lower. I'm thinking about to acid rest or acid malt for my mash and I don't about the sparge water.

 

[BigEd]

The first thing you will need to do is reduce the alkalinity/bicarbonates by about 2/3. Precipitation and/or dilution with RO or distilled water will help. After that you can build up the sulphates with a gypsum addition. Check out the water posts and stickys in the Brew Science section for more water information.

 

[bbone66]

GHB, what city is the water from? I'm also waiting for my water sample from Ward.

 

[Netflyer]

Hey folks, just got my water back from ward labs, can someone please help me adjust for an IPA. Iv been to the adjusting sites but honestly I dont even know where to start with the additions. Thanks for any help. Cheers

GHB

ph 7.7
sodium 45
potassium 2
calcium 62
magnesium 11
total hardness 206
sulfates 18
chloride 12
carbonates 0
Bicarbonates 258
Total alkalinity 212

Go here: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/ and get TH's spreadsheet. Put your numbers in on top. You want to make a Pale Ale - American or English?

If you enter your numbers in there, if you don't want to d/l do the online version, you will see right away, all your values are withing brewing ranges. Your water at the onset is good for a bitter type of beer with a color of between 18 and 23 SRM.

Now if by pale you mean pale then you want to get that SRM down and the way you do that is by lowering your RA. Your pH isn't really important, well it is but it's not what you will directly adjust, instead you will adjust your Residual Alkalinity by adding some brewing salts. IPA's are w/in 8 and like 15 SRM so if you want to get it down you can add a few grams of Gypsum, a few of Calcium Cloride, and a few of Epsom salts. I can't see the sheet on my excel and I have to do it online but if you d/l the sheet you can uncheck whether or not to add the salts to the sparge water as well as the mash. I uncheck them and only add the salts to my mash. This way I use less salts overall and really you want to use as little as possible because salts will effect the taste of the beer if used in excess.

Hope this helps!

 

[MattHollingsworth]

I don't know that EZ water calculator though it's probably similar to Palmer's.

You can download Palmer's here, at the bottom of the page:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

If you read through chapter 15, it'll give a better understanding:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html

Your water has a lot of Bicarbonate, so if you wanna make paler beers you might need to dilute with distilled water in addition to adding salts. Palmer's spreadsheet allows you to figure percentage of dilution with distilled water, then you add salts to get the numbers you want. Like previously stated, the residual alkalinity is what you're going after. Your water is likely fine as is for dark beers but for ambers or paler, you'll likely need to dilute, then add salts.

As far as getting your head around this, think of it this way:

Dilution with distilled water will lower your bicarbonates and other minerals by whatever percentage you dilute at. So, 50% dilution will cut your numbers in half.

Adding gypsum or calcium chloride will have the effect of lowering your mash pH and your residual alkalinity.

Bicarbonates have the effect of raising your pH in your mash.

If you read the Palmer info it'll give you a better understanding. Hope this helps.

 

[Netflyer]

Dude, you should check out the ez calc! It's by a HBT member, TH and it is really a gem! Palmers pales in comparison... IMHO

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Looking at it now. Looks pretty good. A lot less visual clutter than Palmer's spreadsheet. I had to tweak it to add liters instead of gallons though and I prefer entering my beer's color so that it gives me a target RA before I do the adjustments, so I added that too. It's much easier to read though.

 

[Netflyer]

Wow, if you tweak it good, don't forget to share!

I have been unchecking the checks between the mash and the sparge water and only adding the salts to the mash water. This way I can use less salts overall.. The ez sheet figures out the dilution. You can just treat the mash and it works really well. Bobby_M, the HBT water guru showed me that.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

Wow, if you tweak it good, don't forget to share!

I have been unchecking the checks between the mash and the sparge water and only adding the salts to the mash water. This way I can use less salts overall.. The ez sheet figures out the dilution. You can just treat the mash and it works really well. Bobby_M, the HBT water guru showed me that.

Well, dunno if this is "tweaked good", but it's what I did. The water measurement is now in liters. And off to the right, you'll see your target color and estimated low, high and average RA for that color. The graphics on that part don't match the rest of the sheet but it should work fine. You only enter a number in the target color box here, which is in bright yellow.

Posted with apologies to the guy who created the spreadsheet. No offense intended. Nice spreadsheet!

I treat my boil water too because I'm looking for a certain balance of minerals for flavor and for yeast health. With lighter beers, I preboil my water because it's high in bicarbonate, then dilute with distilled water, which means my starting water effectively has no calcium, which the yeast need. Anyway, I treat both and have great results. Salts are cheap, so I'm not worried about adding more salts.

BTW, that ODT file is for Open Office. The XLS is for Excel, but it was saved out of Open Office as I don't have Excel, so apologies if there's any trouble with the file.

View attachment EZ_water_adjustment_liters_ods.zip

View attachment EZ_water_adjustment_liters_xls.zip

 

[Dog House Brew]

My water profile is very similar to yours. Anytime I do a low SRM beer I just dillute with distilled and go from there. BobbyM has a video on using a water calc. Check it out it may give you some insight. Your water will make good Stouts and Porters. I couldn't figure out why all my IPA's had such a harsh bitterness until I saw my water report.

 

[Bobby_M]

Please, I'm definitely not a water guru. I suck at chemistry. All I've been able to do is embrace Palmer's tricks via TH's spreadsheet.

Now, here's some examples .. your water is well suited for hoppy brown beers with a little touch up.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 62
Mg: 11
Na: 45
Cl: 12
SO4: 18
CaCO3: 212

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 4
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:

CaSO4: 2 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 0
MgSO4: 1 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 110 / 86
Mg: 17 / 14
Na: 45 / 45
Cl: 44 / 28
SO4: 117 / 68
CaCO3: 212 /212

RA (mash only): 123 (15 to 20 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.41 (Very Bitter)


With 50% distilled/RO dilution, you can get to APA/IPA territory:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 62
Mg: 11
Na: 45
Cl: 12
SO4: 18
CaCO3: 212

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 4
Dilution Rate: 50%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 4 / 0
CaCl2: 3 / 0
MgSO4: 3 / 3

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 145 / 88
Mg: 24 / 24
Na: 23 / 23
Cl: 102 / 54
SO4: 234 / 160
CaCO3: 106 / 106

RA (mash only): -12 (4 to 9 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.34 (Very Bitter)


Now, you may be able to get your mash pH down with use of acids but I have no experience in doing so. If I were you, I'd get a cheap RO system and intall it.

 

[Netflyer]

The interesting thing here is that his TA being so high his pH is not that high to match. My TA is 130 Bicarb around 150 but my pH is 8.0 TA, total alkalinity in terms of CaCO3 is a decent pH buffer... in general the more TA the harder it will be to move the pH...

In water the bicarbonate ions will re-equilibrate until an
equilibrium is established.
The main equilibria are:
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HCO3- « CO32- + H+ pKa = 10.33
CO2 + H2O « HCO3- + H+ pKa = 6.33

The important parts here are the pKA's these are pH buffering points. The stronger the buffer the more the tendency to lock the pH in at that point. As TA goes over 100 it tends to move the pH up towards the higher pKa value (10.33). So, I'm wondering what is keeping his pH down in his water. It should be over 8... It is a shame to have to dilute but the more carbonate you have the less likely you have to move your pH down via RA because it is such a strong buffer. Oh, btw in case I'm totally speaking a foreign secret chemistry language, a buffer is a place where the pH will remain fairly stable even with the addition of H+ (causes pH to drop) ions or OH- (causes pH to raise)ions. To a certain point anyhow, if you throw enough acid or base in there the buffer will move off it's pKa on the way to the next one. Also some buffers don't have multiple pKa's (they are monoprotic as opposed to di or triprotic)


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