Water Fermentation Chiller

[kerklein2]

I haven't looked at that. The Igloo site has dimensions which I assume are outer dimensions. If they are inner, then it would work perfectly it seems.

EDIT: Some simple math says those are outer dimensions. Think its gonna be too small...

 

[jcarson83]

I just picked up the larger Rubbermaid cooler today and it does, in fact, fit my 6.5 gallon carboy. Unfortunately, I see no way for any fittings to fit inside. Guys that are doing this...are none of you using 6.5 gallon carboys?

I use a better bottle for primary and a glass carboy for secondary (if needed) so I don't have any issues.

 

[hbhudy]

I know this is a fairly old thread, but I noticed that you mentioned that you used this heating as well...

What temp did you have the heated water bath at?? Ie what were you losing with the water transfer between coolers??

By the way pure genius,,, I was going to do the same thing, but hold all the components in a larger fermentation chamber to help eliminate the "outside" world..

 

[kennethm]

Is there a cheaper temp controller that would work?

 

[944play]

Guys that are doing this...are none of you using 6.5 gallon carboys?

I use a 6.5g carboy in a Rubbermaid cooler with stainless bulkhead and ball valve. The carboy can float on top of the bulkhead fitting, no problem, if you adjust the level of your drain. Mine also has a brass elbow in the drain line to make the turn at the bottom edge of the cooler easier. The drain line goes under the carboy and up on the side opposite the bulkhead.

Carboy stopper is for auxiliary support.

You will need a Brewhauler to get the carboy out without racking blindly.

 

[jcarson83]

I know this is a fairly old thread, but I noticed that you mentioned that you used this heating as well...

What temp did you have the heated water bath at?? Ie what were you losing with the water transfer between coolers??

By the way pure genius,,, I was going to do the same thing, but hold all the components in a larger fermentation chamber to help eliminate the "outside" world..

I just use an aquarium heater. It doesn't really matter as long as its not boiling hot because it won't cycle all the water, just enough get the temp up and kick off the pump. The temp loss between cooler isn't really too important either since its going to mix with the rest of the water and stabilize within one or two degrees of what your shooting for.

 

[smashed4]

You inspired me!

I decided to use a copper coil and recirculate water through the copper instead of using gravity to move the water. It works great, very happy with it so far. Fermenting at 64F in a 80F apartment.

Edit:
By the way: I know it is really not pretty.. I will work on neater insulation, but for this first trial I just wanted to see if it would work.

 

[motobrewer]

now THIS is thinking!!

hot d*mn i'm doing this with my next beer.

 

[smashed4]

Than you. Credit goes to the "low tech lagering system" from basic brewing radio.. First thing I saw that used a copper coil and pump to chill..

I just made it bigger so I can have 2 carboys fermenting.

 

[Lilrascal]

WOW! I really like that. Where do you have your probe for the temperature controller/ what are you using to waterproof it?

 

[smashed4]

The probe is dangling between the two carboys and waterproofed with two feet of heat-shrink PVC from:

http://www.etcsupply.com/thermal-well-aquariums-clear-heatshrink-tube-p-150.html

 

[jcarson83]

Glad to see the continued interest in the thread. I have to say though that I've moved on. As much fun as its been messing with this project someone finally gave me an old deep freeze so that what I'm using for my fermonator. It is 100x easier too. So for all of you that don't have the extra money to spend on another appliance, or don't have the space, this is a great solution. But if you have both get a freezer and stop swapping out water bottles every few days.

Lilrascal you can waterproof the probe with a piece of silicone tubing found at aquarium supply places.

 

[Lilrascal]

Lilrascal you can waterproof the probe with a piece of silicone tubing found at aquarium supply places.

What do you use to seal the end of the tubing?

 

[winstonofbeer]

This is a very interesting idea.
I have read this thread like 2 times now.
Noticed that everyone seems to be using a igloo or home depot cooler for the carboy.
I can understand the insulation part of it, But has anyone tried just a tub filled up with water to see how well it works? I do 10g batch's and sometimes have 4 carboys full....4 coolers at 25 bucks a shot...Not a good investment.
Dont really want to buy a fridge..Already have 3..

Right now i am fermenting a kind of hacky sack water bath...but its a tub that only 6 inch's high. I put water bottles in it, Morning. Noon, Night and i can keep it around 70 thru main fermentation.. Not best but better than 80. So in theory it might work?

 

[smashed4]

I use 2 rubbermaid storage box stacked one in the other:

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/3/HouseHome/StorageOrganization/GarageOrganization/PRD~0423479P/Rubbermaid%252BHinged%252BTop%252BTote%25252C%252B114%252BL.jsp?locale=en


I put insulating foam, the kind you spray from a can, between the two to get improved insulation.

I can fit two carboys. They are submerged 3/4 in the water which I feel is good enough.

Only thing remaining is to make a custom cover.

 

[winstonofbeer]

smashed, Are your useing the pump and ice bath setup?
If so, How much ice are you going thru in a day?
How cold are your fermenting?

Thanks

 

[smashed4]

Yes, a pump sitting in a ice bath with rubbermaid tubs for the carboys. See last page for pics. I have since slightly improved the insulation using foam on the rubbermaids and I drilled holes in the cooler for the tubing so I can now close the lid.

I ferment at various temps. Obviously the colder you go, the more ice you need.

I make ice blocks of roughly 2 cups volume. I need to add 5-6 of these twice a day to keep it 20F below ambient, on average.

 

[winstonofbeer]

Looking at pumps for this project,
Whats the gph that works best for this project?
I am finding 40 - 130 gph depending on the pump for all around 20 bucks.

Slowly starting to get this project on the move.

 

[944play]

I use the HF 258 GPH. It's overkill for this application but is just enough in this one.

 

[kenc_zymurgy]

Looking at pumps for this project,
Whats the gph that works best for this project?
I am finding 40 - 130 gph depending on the pump for all around 20 bucks.

Slowly starting to get this project on the move.

I use the HF 258 GPH. It's overkill for this application but is just enough in this one.

I will suggest as small a pump as you can find that will move the water. Two reasons:

1) The pump itself creates heat. That 258GPH uses 20Watts which all gets turned into heat. That is ~ 68 BTUs. If the pump runs 50% of the time (I don't know what's typical with these systems), that's 68 BTU x 12 hrs/day = 816 BTUs. A pound of ice absorbs ~ 144 BTUs melting, so 816/144 = 5.6#, so that's almost 3 Quarts ice melted by the pump each day. Almost six quarts/day if it running full time to initially bring temps down, less if the pump runs much less though.

2) I'd guess there's only ~ 3 gallons chill water in the cooler with the fermentor? So a +200GPH pump will replace that water in less than one minute. OK, some blending of the water, but in only a couple minutes the water near the fermentor has mostly been replaced with the cold water from the ice cooler. But it will take longer than that for the fermentor to actually change temperature. In the mean time, you are just running the pump for no reason - the water is not getting any colder.

A 5W pump will push maybe 30GPH through the hose, .5 G/minute, so it would take 6 minutes to do one changeover (which will have a blend of water in reality). This gives time for the fermentor/thermostat to react, yet it would seem to provide plenty of cold water in that time.

So a small pump will generate less heat, and might even give more stable temperature by slowly cooling the water bath, giving time for the thermostat to respond.

Check out some of these:

http://www.jebao.com/english/products.php?current=2&laywer1=4774

Watch the 'max head' - .5 Meters in some cases, you need to keep the max lift of the water to less than 'max head'.

-kenc

 

[944play]

If the pump runs 50% of the time (I don't know what's typical with these systems)

Duty cycle is typically WELL under 1%. Pump heat is just not a significant factor. You might as well get a pump that works well for recirculating through an immersion chiller.

We (I) don't use a thermowell, so as soon as the coolant reaches set temp, the pump is off.

 

[kenc_zymurgy]

Duty cycle is typically WELL under 1%. Pump heat is just not a significant factor. You might as well get a pump that works well for recirculating through an immersion chiller.

We (I) don't use a thermowell, so as soon as the coolant reaches set temp, the pump is off.

I see, with that low of a duty cycle you are right, a non-issue. I was figuring it might run for a while to get down to temp, but less often to maintain that temp. I think it's good that you monitor the coolant temp, I wasn't aware that most people were doing it that way. It seems that so many people get hung up on monitoring the wort/beer temperature, but it almost always works better if you can keep the environment at a controlled temperature, the beer/wort will follow. Esp since the coolant in this design will quickly draw of any heat from fermentation.

I looked back in this long (and excellent) thread, here's a good example of why monitoring the coolant can work better than monitoring the beer/wort:

I started with the thermowell (thermistor??) directly in the carboy, but I ran into an issue. When the system kicked on, it would pump so much freezing cold water into the chiller that it would push my fermentation temp 4-5 degrees lower than my target. Now that it is in the chiller water, I just set the temp controller about two degrees lower than my target fermentation temp and it works great.

With a good coolant level, I'm not sure you'd really need the two degree offset, but hey, that's closer than most people can get anyway.

-kenc

 

[winstonofbeer]

So if i am figuring this out right,
Long as its a cheap pump, It really doesnt matter if it does 40 or 240gph.

Just make sure the controller is set up right.

 

[teddy4xp]

I recently moved hawaii and dont have many options for a cool room to ferment my homebrew. There happen to be 3 coolers left under the house im renting so i used them to make my water chiller. Ended up using all pvc piping for the overflow and drain hose connection. Bought a RANCO controller off ebay. Was SHOCKED at how easy it was to set up. Bought a 40gph pump to circulate the water in the chiller and a 180gph to pump from water cooler to the chiller. Its working great! I have two 2.5gallon rectangular water jugs that i use to chill the water and keep two more in my freezer. I have been switching them every 48 hours. The chiller maintains a steady 65 in my 90+ degree garage. Bought a sheet of foam from Home Depot and made a cover to place of the carboy to better insulate. I have been very please so far.

 

[AnOldUR]

I'm experimenting with this method of controlling fermentation temps.

Has anyone put a thermowell in the carboy and compared it to the ambient water temperature? Results?

 

[kpr121]

Sorry to bring up an oldish thread, but does anyone think the following may work? I want to use my immersion chiller and pond pump set up as is without much modification. If I put the IC copper coil in my 10g water cooler mash tun filled with ice water, the pump in my Rubbermaid container where the fermenters are, and plug the pump into an ebay temperature controller, theoretically it should work correct?

This way I don’t have to worry about overflow pipes, both containers can stay on the floor, and all the water being pumped will end up right back where it came from. The only issue I can see is stratification of the chilling water in the mash tun, but I think it should still work. I guess if its taking too long I could throw a small aquarium pump in the cooler to keep the ice water turbulent.

I figure this is the best way to use the equipment I already have, and since I almost never do back to back days of brewing, the equipment can basically be utilized at all times. If I brew the following week, usually the beer has fermented to FG and temp control is not as necessary. So I would be pulling the first batch out of the Rubbermaid, and replacing it with the new batch. After cleaning the IC and mash tun, it goes back to fermentation chill mode. (This would give me incentive to clean my equipment right away as well lol).

BTW I frequently do 10 gallon batches, and currently use the rubbermaid container as a swamp chiller to chill two buckets at the same time. In the recent heat, I've had to change frozen water bottles up to 3 times a day. Hopefully with this setup I can partially enclose the rubbermaid container (at least put a blanket over it, and possibly insulate the outside walls as well). If I can get away with a constant temperature while only having to change ice once every couple day, I will be ecstatic!

 

[teddy4xp]

I think its a great idea! I recently switched to a chest freezer, much simpler than the water bath but it definitely served its purpose and I made some great beers using that set up!

 

[kenc_zymurgy]

Sorry to bring up an oldish thread, but does anyone think the following may work? I want to use my immersion chiller and pond pump set up as is without much modification. If I put the IC copper coil in my 10g water cooler mash tun filled with ice water, the pump in my Rubbermaid container where the fermenters are, and plug the pump into an ebay temperature controller, theoretically it should work correct?

.....

Hopefully with this setup I can partially enclose the rubbermaid container (at least put a blanket over it, and possibly insulate the outside walls as well). If I can get away with a constant temperature while only having to change ice once every couple day, I will be ecstatic!

That should work fine, I would think. Pumping the water directly (as in the OP) has the advantage of not needing to transfer the heat, it just moves the water. But an IC should have plenty of heat transfer capability.

Two suggestions - 1) put the probe in the water such that the pump shuts off quickly. The coldest water will be the water sitting in the IC (it has had time to give up its heat). Might as well just pump that cold water, then let it sit and come to an average temperature.

and 2) get the bottom insulated. Cold sinks and you want to hold the cold in.

I don't think stratification will be a big issue, the ice will float to the top, so you will get a natural flow from the cold on top dropping to the bottom and rising again as it warms.

-kenc

 

[kpr121]

See my remarks below in bold

That should work fine, I would think. Pumping the water directly (as in the OP) has the advantage of not needing to transfer the heat, it just moves the water. But an IC should have plenty of heat transfer capability.
Understood. I guess I am trading off efficiency for ease of use/implementation. If the pump runs 2-3 times longer in my situation vs. directly pumping the ice water, I am okay with that.

Two suggestions - 1) put the probe in the water such that the pump shuts off quickly. The coldest water will be the water sitting in the IC (it has had time to give up its heat). Might as well just pump that cold water, then let it sit and come to an average temperature.
Im thinking of either putting the probe directly in between the carboys or at the furthest point from the cold water out, basically the opposite corner. Which would be better?

and 2) get the bottom insulated. Cold sinks and you want to hold the cold in.
Great point, I think I am going to use the second rubbermaid I have and insulate between the two with expanding foam

I don't think stratification will be a big issue, the ice will float to the top, so you will get a natural flow from the cold on top dropping to the bottom and rising again as it warms.
The only reason I thought of stratification was from experience with cooling wort. If you dont stir the wort a cool layer sits right outside the copper, essentially limiting the temperature delta. I guess when the delta is only a few degrees you don't have quite the same issue

-kenc

Thanks for the suggestions! I am definitely going to give this a try since it literally will cost me nothing but a couple minutes of my time. I'll report back (w/ pics hopefully) with my results.

 

[kenc_zymurgy]

See my remarks below in bold

I'm thinking of either putting the probe directly in between the carboys or at the furthest point from the cold water out, basically the opposite corner. Which would be better?

I think you will need to experiment. The reason I say close to the output tube is consider this:

Say you have 5 gallons of chill water in the fermentor cooler and you want to maintain 60F. It takes some time for a thermostat to respond. If the pump moves 1 gallon of water (just one minute for a 60 GPH pump) before the thermostat shuts it down, you have a mix of one gallon of, say, 40F water and 4 gallons of 60F water - that averages out to 5 gallons of 56F. That might be a bit more swing than you want.

Again, it will take some experimentation, but I'd lean towards a short cycle to avoid over-shoot, and move from there as needed. With a compressor, you want to avoid short cycles, but I think this will actually be best with just a pump.

The only reason I thought of stratification was from experience with cooling wort. If you dont stir the wort a cool layer sits right outside the copper, essentially limiting the temperature delta. I guess when the delta is only a few degrees you don't have quite the same issue

That's what I think also. Also, calculate how much water the IC holds. From my comments above, you may find that all you need to do is pump the contents of the IC over to the fermentor. After that, the water in the IC has some time to sit in the ice bath and give its heat up. You might not really need to transfer any heat as it is being pumped.

Thanks for the suggestions! I am definitely going to give this a try since it literally will cost me nothing but a couple minutes of my time. I'll report back (w/ pics hopefully) with my results.

Please do report back. Let us know some things like the controller settings, volume of chill water in the fermentor, in the ice bath, the volume in the IC, and your pump capacity (it would be good to measure how long it takes to fill a gallon jug with it hooked up - to see how it handles the restriction of the IC and hoses). It really helps us to hear how the theories really work out in practice. I do think this will work well for you.

-kenc