Water Chemistry, is there an online plug and play calculator?

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

In theory that would be correct given the info you put into the calculator. However, I find it difficult to believe that your estimated mash pH is 5.3 when using just your base water profile (untreated), especially since your alkalinity is 85. The estimated mash pH you need to put into this program is figured WITHOUT adding in any salts or acid yet, it's the estimated mash pH based on your base water profile only. Usually the pH for a wheat beer will probably be around 5.7ish if using distilled water but for your water profile it might be as high as 5.9 or so. Put your recipe into Bru'n Water or BeerSmith or whatever software you use along with your base water profile only and use the predicted pH from that.

yeah man my waters pH is 7.9, so I got that totally wrong. I will need to add acid to my next batch. is there a specific brew acid you know about I need? 85% Phosphoric Acid is something I can pick up at my local shop? thanks

 

[brian320fo]

yeah man my waters pH is 7.9, so I got that totally wrong. I will need to add acid to my next batch. is there a specific brew acid you know about I need? 85% Phosphoric Acid is something I can pick up at my local shop? thanks

Most shops probably do not carry the 85% version of Phosphoric Acid but most will carry 10% and some the 25%. If you do go the 85% route, be careful handling it. You can get it online at Duda Diesel. That bottle will last you a VERY long time!

 

[brian320fo]

yeah man my waters pH is 7.9, so I got that totally wrong. I will need to add acid to my next batch. is there a specific brew acid you know about I need? 85% Phosphoric Acid is something I can pick up at my local shop? thanks

Post your grain bill here and I'll see what I come up with. Also include the volume of water you're going to use for your mash. I'll walk you through on how to use the calculator.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

To bring 5 gallons of your 85 mg/L (ppm) Alkalinity and pH 7.6 water to a nominal Alkalinity of ~10 mg/L (ppm) and a nominal pH of ~5.4-5.5 requires the addition of one of the following:

~2.5 mL of 88% Lactic Acid
~2.8 mL of 80% Lactic Acid
~26 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid
~7.7 mL of 30% Phosphoric Acid
~2.3 mL of 75% Phosphoric Acid
~1.9 mL of 85% Phosphoric Acid
~7.8 mL of AMS(CRS)
~2.2 grams of Citric Acid

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

85 mg/L of Alkalinity (as CaCO3) - 10 mg/L of same = 75 mg/L to be removed (whereby to achieve ~ pH 5.5)
The molecular weight of CaCO3 is 100.0869
The Ca++ ion has a valence of 2 (thus the ++)
Therefore the Eq Wt. (equivalent weight) of CaCO3 = 100.0869/2 = 50.04345
75 mg/L / 50.04345 ~= 1.5 mEq/L of Alkalinity to be removed via the addition of an acid
5 Gallons x 3.7854 L/Gal. = 18.927 Liters
18.927 L. x 1.5 mEq/L = 28.4 mEq of Alkalinity to be removed to achieve a pH of ~5.5

At 5.5 pH the relative mEq/mL acid strengths of the various acids listed above are ~:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
88% Lactic Acid ~= 11.51 mEq/mL
80% Lactic Acid ~= 10.30 mEq/mL
10% Phosphoric Acid ~= 1.094 mEq/mL
30% Phosphoric Acid ~= 3.68 mEq/mL
75% Phosphoric Acid ~= 12.31 mEq/mL
85% Phosphoric Acid ~= 14.92 mEq/mL
AMS(CRS) ~= 3.66 mEq/mL
Citric Acid (Anhydrous) ~= 13.08 mEq/gram

Simply divide mEq's of Alkalinity to be removed by one of the above acids mEq's/mL or mEq's/gram.

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

Post your grain bill here and I'll see what I come up with. Also include the volume of water you're going to use for your mash. I'll walk you through on how to use the calculator.

Brian I really appreciate you taking your time to help me.
Grain Bill:
5.25 lbs of Rahr 2-Row Malt
4.25 lbs of Rahr white Wheat
1lb Flaked Oats

My volume is 7.25 gallons with no sparging. Just the BIAB method with squeezing the Bag at mash out(170).

Thanks!

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

85 mg/L of Alkalinity (as CaCO3) - 10 mg/L of same = 75 mg/L to be removed (whereby to achieve ~ pH 5.5)
The molecular weight of CaCO3 is 100.0869
The Ca++ ion has a valence of 2 (thus the ++)
Therefore the Eq Wt. (equivalent weight) of CaCO3 = 100.0869/2 = 50.04345
75 mg/L / 50.04345 ~= 1.5 mEq/L of Alkalinity to be removed via the addition of an acid
5 Gallons x 3.7854 L/Gal. = 18.927 Liters
18.927 L. x 1.5 mEq/L = 28.4 mEq of Alkalinity to be removed to achieve a pH of ~5.5

At 5.5 pH the relative mEq/mL acid strengths of the various acids listed above are ~:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
88% Lactic Acid ~= 11.51 mEq/mL
80% Lactic Acid ~= 10.30 mEq/mL
10% Phosphoric Acid ~= 1.094 mEq/mL
30% Phosphoric Acid ~= 3.68 mEq/mL
75% Phosphoric Acid ~= 12.31 mEq/mL
85% Phosphoric Acid ~= 14.92 mEq/mL
AMS(CRS) ~= 3.66 mEq/mL
Citric Acid (Anhydrous) ~= 13.08 mEq/gram

Simply divide mEq's of Alkalinity to be removed by one of the above acids mEq's/mL or mEq's/gram.

This is wonderful! I followed the math as well and I am definitely going to save this for my next batch.
could I ask, out of all 8 of those different acids...which one do you prefer out of them? Does it depend on the beer you're brewing or just preference?

Thank you!

 

[tracer bullet]

10% phosphoric is fairly easy to find, not scary to store or handle, and basically not noticeable flavor-wise in normal amounts. It's in tons of sodas. It's what I'd recommend.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I agree that 10% Phosphoric Acid is a flavor neutral choice. White Wheat malt and Flaked Oats are both highly basic with respect to the desired mash pH target, and they make up nearly 50% of your grist, so additional acid demand is required to be added to the mash water whereby to address your waters Alkalinity combined with the basic nature of the grist and mash at ~ pH 5.5. And then I would recommend a second and smaller addition of acid to be introduced pre-boil whereby to assure that your Wort enters fermentation at approximately a pH of 5.1 to 5.2. Here is how I see it using my 'Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet:



PS: Notice the recommended addition of 3.3 grams of presumed fresh Calcium Chloride prills to your 7.5 gallons of water.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Could I ask, out of all 8 of those different acids...which one do you prefer out of them? Does it depend on the beer you're brewing or just preference?

It does depend upon the beer you're brewing, and due to it's being flavor neutral, Phosphoric Acid might prove to be the best choice for the recipe you've provided. That said, in Germany Lactic Acid is likely to be the predominant go-to choice, but due to your water being so Alkaline combined with your grist being so highly basic with respect to pH 5.5 you would need to add so much of it that it is likely you might taste it.

 

[brian320fo]

Brian I really appreciate you taking your time to help me.
Grain Bill:
5.25 lbs of Rahr 2-Row Malt
4.25 lbs of Rahr white Wheat
1lb Flaked Oats

My volume is 7.25 gallons with no sparging. Just the BIAB method with squeezing the Bag at mash out(170).

Thanks!

No problem! Here is what I come up with. I made some assumptions like IBUs, SRM etc. but the basics won't change.

I put your recipe into BeerSmith and it looks something like this.



The "Samson's" line for water in BeerSmith contains your water profile that I got from your attachment. This is the same water profile I put into the water calculator on phantomwingbrew.com. Note: The Sulfate content from Ward Labs is listed as SO4-S. This is a different measurement than we use for brewing. To get the proper SO4 ppm you have to multiply this number (in your case 8) by 3. So the input for Sulfate should be 24. The predicted pH, based solely on your water profile and grain bill, is 5.87. This is the value that goes into the Est. Mash pH box in the water calculator.



The output I get is as follows:



My technique is to start heating up the water. As it's heating I measure out the salts and add them to the water. When the water gets to about 100* I do a good stir to make sure all the salts are dissolved and mixed thoroughly. Then I measure out the acid and add that in. I do it this way because I use phosphoric acid and it can cause the calcium to precipitate if not done correctly. For any other acid type this is not a problem but other acids can have flavor impacts. When this is all done and the water temp gets to mash temp I do another stir then mash in.

There's a lot of information about water on the phantomwingbrew.com website that is useful for brewers at this stage. Let me know if any of it is confusing so I can edit it and clear it up.

Good luck!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

This is wonderful! I followed the math as well and I am definitely going to save this for my next batch.
could I ask, out of all 8 of those different acids...which one do you prefer out of them? Does it depend on the beer you're brewing or just preference?

Thank you!

There is of course one prime thing to consider when using any acid, and that is your own safety. 75% and 85% Phosphoric Acid are extremely dangerous to handle, and even at 30% it gives me pause for trepidation. Ditto for CRS (AMS). YMMV

As dangerous as it assuredly is, to me at least, 80% or 88% Lactic Acid appears to be noticeably less hazardous. YMMV

The next consideration is as to whether or not any acid is truly classified as food grade. I even question some acids that are touted to be food grade as to their validity in making this claim. Contaminants, particularly of the heavy metals variety come to mind here. Over time heavy metals exposure in even minute amounts for such metals as Lead and Cadmium (plus others) can seriously mess you up. Use due diligence.

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

No problem! Here is what I come up with. I made some assumptions like IBUs, SRM etc. but the basics won't change.

I put your recipe into BeerSmith and it looks something like this.

View attachment 718711

The "Samson's" line for water in BeerSmith contains your water profile that I got from your attachment. This is the same water profile I put into the water calculator on phantomwingbrew.com. Note: The Sulfate content from Ward Labs is listed as SO4-S. This is a different measurement than we use for brewing. To get the proper SO4 ppm you have to multiply this number (in your case 8) by 3. So the input for Sulfate should be 24. The predicted pH, based solely on your water profile and grain bill, is 5.87. This is the value that goes into the Est. Mash pH box in the water calculator.

View attachment 718712

The output I get is as follows:

View attachment 718713

My technique is to start heating up the water. As it's heating I measure out the salts and add them to the water. When the water gets to about 100* I do a good stir to make sure all the salts are dissolved and mixed thoroughly. Then I measure out the acid and add that in. I do it this way because I use phosphoric acid and it can cause the calcium to precipitate if not done correctly. For any other acid type this is not a problem but other acids can have flavor impacts. When this is all done and the water temp gets to mash temp I do another stir then mash in.

There's a lot of information about water on the phantomwingbrew.com website that is useful for brewers at this stage. Let me know if any of it is confusing so I can edit it and clear it up.

Good luck!

thank you, I followed this for my brew day and will continue with your website for future brews. Ill read up on it and let you know if I have any questions! thanks