water chemistry for APA and hazy IPA all grain kits

[mboardman]

Im having trouble deciphering my water quality report and want to brew some juicy ipa and american pale ale kits (like Odells Drumroll). Ive found pointers on keeping carbonates low, but I dont know what to look for in the water report, since carbonates arent a specific item listed in themselves. I know they are made up of other listed things, but what?

I have an RO system and a charcoal filter in the whole house filter. How do I tell what I should do to the water before getting that yeast out of the fridge? kck water report attached.

 

[Jag75]

Get one of the brewing programs out there and build up from RO water. Since you have RO water it be as easy as downloading the program , getting your salts and acids and start building .

 

[day_trippr]

I also advise getting comfortable with a brewing water building program as otherwise one is working in the dark. I use the supporter version of Bru'n Water, but there are plenty of alternatives that will help.

It's a good thing you have an RO system - hopefully fronted with some really good charcoal filters - because that water looks scary AF from here.

Note the presence of chloramines/chlorite. Ok, that's SOP (and nearly mandatory) in any municipal system, and they can be knocked out using "campden tablets", because brewing with them untreated can result in the dreaded pungent "Band-Aid" character in the end. I believe charcoal pre-filters will also knock those chlorine compounds out, but I don't know for how long before replacement is needed.

Going on, note the Total Hardness as CaCO3: that 300ppm average is very high when it comes to brewing water, and would require something (calcium and/or acids) to knock them down to a livable range when brewing light color beers at least.

But, then the Magnesium is high, the iron is borderline at .28 ppm (can cause a "blood" character), and the Sulfate, Chlorate, and Sodium are remarkably high. And then there's the hexavalent chromium - and the strontium. Shades of Erin Brockovich, where does this water come from?

Aanyway...back to the RO system: that's your best bet and makes dialing up brewing water for any style relatively easy. Pick a water program, tell it you're using RO water, plug in all of your pertinent recipe aspects (mostly grain bill and water volumes, as well as the beer style) and see what it recommends...

Cheers!

 

[jrgtr42]

Are you brewing all-grain or extract?
If extract, you can use the water as-is. The extract itself has all the minerals and salts it needs.
If all-grain, Then you'd need to build the water up.
I'd say use the RO in either case. Then using a brew calculator, add the salts etc needed for that style.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Are you brewing all-grain or extract?

OP mentioned "all-grain kits" in the title.

If extract, you can use the water as-is. The extract itself has all the minerals and salts it needs.

@day_trippr commented: " because that water looks scary AF from here". With extract, one needs to start with low mineral water for good results. It also should be noted that people have been adding flavor salt additions to extract recipes for decades. See either Brewing Engineering (it's a book) or the "no-boil" DME threads from late Dec 2019 for inspiration. It's a "season to taste" approach - so maybe new brewers should avoid flavoring salt additions (unless the recipe specifically includes DME/LME brand information and salt additions).

 

[DuncB]

David Heath Homebrew and short circuit brewing both have videos on using water calculators and building a profile. Watching those got me underway.
Reading " Water " is something to do first thing in the morning after a good nights sleep with a strong coffee and in a cool room, I found it quite "dry".

But very informative but not needed to start getting into water.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There's also Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery which could be considered to be the "cliff notes" for A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

I found it [the book Water] quite "dry".

 

[day_trippr]

[...]
@day_trippr commented: " because that water looks scary AF from here". With extract, one needs to start with low mineral water for good results. It also should be noted that people have been adding flavor salt additions to extract recipes for decades. See either Brewing Engineering (it's a book) or the "no-boil" DME threads from late Dec 2019 for inspiration. It's a "season to taste" approach - so maybe new brewers should avoid flavoring salt additions (unless the recipe specifically includes DME/LME brand information and salt additions).

That was adorable. And completely off the mark.
Now, take a closer look at the OPs water chemistry and maybe you'll get what I was actually referring to...

Cheers!

 

[DuncB]

With that water profile I think you should be using the water from the RO for cooking as well, just a little bit of NaCl with the veggies but none in the tea or coffeepot.
Salts can add to the beerkits I'm sure especially with a naked startpoint.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

That was adorable.

Thank you .

And completely off the mark.

OP is brewing all grain & my comments were definitely in response to " The extract itself has all the minerals and salts it needs." - so you're 2 for 2

And my point remains, " people have been adding flavor salt additions to extract recipes for decades. "

 

[DuncB]

So maybe this kit
https://brewchatter.com/products/odellnewdawnhazyipa-allgrainbeerkit
I'd be going for some salts in my RO water ( tap water here for me as it's not so full of heavy metals ) .

The OP could reach out to the brewery and they may well give some clues for the profile.

 

[day_trippr]

Seriously wondering if anyone is actually looking at the OP's full water report - which looks like something out of the Love Canal...

 

[DuncB]

Well @day_trippr I've never drunk at that watering hole but I agree there's a lot happening with the OP water, but the beer is going to be made with some RO water and salts I hope.
I'd feel safe to wash in that water but not so happy about the cooking and brewing as I mentioned above. Strontium is good for bone strength though.

 

[mboardman]

Well, Ive brewed some decent belgian Duvel clones with my RO system, but everything before that tasted awful. Good to get some confirmation on my crap water, was as I suspected all along. I've brewed a few ipa kits in the last 3-4 months and none of them tasted/looked/smelled right. Today I replaced the filters in teh RO system and will grab some software for water building. Guess I forgot about those....thx.

 

[jerrylotto]

Your report shows high enough sulfate that I would either dilute with distilled or start with a clean slate. Start with a Campden tablet to knock out the chloramines then cut it by at least 75% to get sulfates low enough. Given that, you're probably better off starting with all RO or distilled. You're not going to get to a good chloride to sulfate ratio out of that tap water

 

[mboardman]

I have been using around 4-5g of RO water, then adding about 2 -3g of hot tap water to balance it out (for 5 g batches) but admit Ive been flying blind. I also didnt know, no one told me until today in this post, that my water looks that bad. Now, it does taste great, nice and rocky. But some are even saying its unhealthy to cook with? Every piece of plumbing when taken apart (Ive lived here 16 yrs) had tons of calcium buildup, the glass shower walls ALWAYS have a sheen of white on them. Questions is, isnt this the same in most cities? Arent sulfates high everywhere? Unless you live in the mountains of montana...wait. Hmmm...

 

[jerrylotto]

Hazy NEIPAs benefit from a 2:1 ratio of chloride to sulfate but you want to keep TDS low and calcium adequate for yeast health. It is not that the water is intrinsically unhealthy to drink. When you start out with high ppm of sulfate, it becomes difficult (if not impossible) to get a good ion balance for both taste and healthy fermentation. pH is also important - primarlly for mashing to reduce tannin extraction and throughout for stability. Those are the three primary things your water chemistry impacts.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

isnt this the same in most cities?

Nope. And it can vary widely within "short" distances. Lived in a city where the tap water that was "low mineral" (treat for city water supply additives and move on). Moved to new place about 10 miles away - switched to RO water after talking to a couple of local home brewers.

 

[tld6008]

I use Mash Made Easy works well for me, MashMadeEasy
I would not use any tap water unless ran through a charcoal filter, and don't use it from the HW heater

 

[TestTickle]

If I had the luxury of an RO system, I'd be using strictly RO water and building my profile from there.

 

[tld6008]

29 cent/gal from Walmart here, pretty easy to do RO every time

 

[TestTickle]

29 cent/gal from Walmart here, pretty easy to do RO every time

Sadly, the WM near me doesn't carry RO water. I mostly use my well water run through a charcoal filter, but for lighter brews, I sometimes will cut it with distilled.

 

[mboardman]

They're pretty cheap anymore....here's a kit like mine, only $135. Think of how many trips to the store it will save you, lugging 10 jugs of water out to the car...

https://www.amazon.com/COSTWAY-Filt...NR13CGN/ref=dp_fod_1?pd_rd_i=B07NR13CGN&psc=1

 

[mboardman]

Hazy NEIPAs benefit from a 2:1 ratio of chloride to sulfate but you want to keep TDS low and calcium adequate for yeast health. It is not that the water is intrinsically unhealthy to drink. When you start out with high ppm of sulfate, it becomes difficult (if not impossible) to get a good ion balance for both taste and healthy fermentation. pH is also important - primarlly for mashing to reduce tannin extraction and throughout for stability. Those are the three primary things your water chemistry impacts.

I dont usually have a problem with fermentations, but Im convinced Im extracting those tannins during mashes. Most of my worst beers taste...harsh...antiseptic.

 

[mboardman]

I just replaced all 5 filters on my RO system, which makes me think perhaps I waited too long to change them. At $65 per set, its not exactly cheap, but I think I just wasted 3 beer kits at $50 each, so....

How often do you all change your filters?

Keep in mind, I do have a carbon filter on the incoming line for the entire house. I change that every six months, but maybe should more often. So this whole house filter is in front of the RO system. The RO system is just for the brewing room.

 

[TestTickle]

They're pretty cheap anymore....here's a kit like mine, only $135. Think of how many trips to the store it will save you, lugging 10 jugs of water out to the car...

https://www.amazon.com/COSTWAY-Filt...NR13CGN/ref=dp_fod_1?pd_rd_i=B07NR13CGN&psc=1

Yeah, I have researched them quite a bit over the past couple of years...cost and installation are not stopping me. The main thing that I am concerned about it the amount of waste water from them. I'm on a well, and after the neighbor's well across the street dried up and he informed me that mine is older than his, I got a little paranoid, lol. I tried to figure out ways to make use of the waste, but as much as I brew, I can't really think of a practical way to use that much of the waste water.

I really can't complain too much though, my water could be as bad as the OP's.

 

[DuncB]

@mboardman
Your water plans are getting sorted.

Try using RainX on the shower screens will save a lot of effort if you can get them spotless before applying.

 

[duffy5018]

Yeah, I have researched them quite a bit over the past couple of years...cost and installation are not stopping me. The main thing that I am concerned about it the amount of waste water from them. I'm on a well, and after the neighbor's well across the street dried up and he informed me that mine is older than his, I got a little paranoid, lol. I tried to figure out ways to make use of the waste, but as much as I brew, I can't really think of a practical way to use that much of the waste water.

I really can't complain too much though, my water could be as bad as the OP's.

Here's the one I use, 5 stage, with the waste reducer pump:
https://liquagen.com/collections/ro...filter-system-75-gpd-1?variant=19793969348670I make a gallon of water for every gallon I "waste" (the waste water goes into a 50 gal brute trash can, and I use that to water gardens and wash the dogs. I manage to use about half of it, the other half does get dumped). The only thing with Liquagen is their installation manuals are pretty garbage, so if you're not too familiar with setting one up, it can be a little confusing.