Water Calculation Question - Alkalinity

[RedL]

A previous thread on late roasted grain additions in an Irish Stout has led me to some questions on water calculations and PH(Late Grain Additions).

I am starting with the following:

-8.38 gallons RO water (this is BIAB)
-3 grams Gypsum
-2.5 grams CaCL
- .5 grams Epsom Salt

-6.5lbs Marris Otter
-1.5lbs Flaked Barley
- 14oz Roasted Barley

This gives me a close approximation of the Black Balanced water profile, minus the Sodium. Bru'n Water estimates a 5.55 mash pH (EZWater 5.8), which looks good to me, but there is 0 biocarbonate in the mash. There is supposed to be over 100 Bicarbonate. If I mashed everything together would the pH drop lower over time? What am I missing here? If the mash pH is correct, why do I need the added alkalinity?

 

[VikeMan]

There is never a reason to add bicarbonate unless you need it to raise pH. If you added it strictly to chase someone's idea of a great water profile or a regional profile, you'd need to offset it with an acid addition to bring the pH back down.

 

[marc1]

A previous thread on late roasted grain additions in an Irish Stout has led me to some questions on water calculations and PH(Late Grain Additions).

I am starting with the following:

-8.38 gallons RO water (this is BIAB)
-3 grams Gypsum
-2.5 grams CaCL
- .5 grams Epsom Salt

-6.5lbs Marris Otter
-1.5lbs Flaked Barley
- 14oz Roasted Barley

This gives me a close approximation of the Black Balanced water profile, minus the Sodium. Bru'n Water estimates a 5.55 mash pH (EZWater 5.8), which looks good to me, but there is 0 biocarbonate in the mash. There is supposed to be over 100 Bicarbonate. If I mashed everything together would the pH drop lower over time? What am I missing here? If the mash pH is correct, why do I need the added alkalinity?

You don't. Why do you think you're supposed to have it?

I'm pretty sure that if you read the instructions again for Brunwater you will find an explanation.

 

[RedL]

You don't. Why do you think you're supposed to have it?

I'm pretty sure that if you read the instructions again for Brunwater you will find an explanation.

The water profiles for darker beers typically have some bicarbonate in them. I have read about needing the alkaline buffer to prevent the pH from dropping when you use roasted grains. I didn’t know if that meant I needed the alkalinity after hitting mash pH to keep it from dropping further.

 

[marc1]

The water profiles for darker beers typically have some bicarbonate in them. I have read about needing the alkaline buffer to prevent the pH from dropping when you use roasted grains. I didn’t know if that meant I needed the alkalinity after hitting mash pH to keep it from dropping further.

This stuff can be complicated to wrap your head around at first!

The grains in your mash provide buffering capacity.
If the dark grains are in your mash, the software should take them into account for mash pH calculations.
If they are not in your mash, then they won't be affecting mash pH.

See also this post:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/og-issues-driving-me-crazy.693867/#post-9134153

 

[CascadesBrewer]

A previous thread on late roasted grain additions in an Irish Stout has led me to some questions on water calculations and PH(Late Grain Additions).

If you don't have them Gordon Strong has a couple brewing books that are good reads ("Brewing Better Beer" and "Modern Homebrew Recipes"). Gordon won many awards at the homebrew level and now heads up the BJCP style guidelines...he knows a little about beer! He was one of the first proponents of the late grain addition strategy. He covers his water chemistry approach in the books (I would have to look to see which has more or better info, but they are both books worth having).

 

[RedL]

This stuff can be complicated to wrap your head around at first!

The grains in your mash provide buffering capacity.
If the dark grains are in your mash, the software should take them into account for mash pH calculations.
If they are not in your mash, then they won't be affecting mash pH.

See also this post:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/og-issues-driving-me-crazy.693867/#post-9134153

Exactly the info I needed, thanks!

If you don't have them Gordon Strong has a couple brewing books that are good reads ("Brewing Better Beer" and "Modern Homebrew Recipes"). Gordon won many awards at the homebrew level and now heads up the BJCP style guidelines...he knows a little about beer! He was one of the first proponents of the late grain addition strategy. He covers his water chemistry approach in the books (I would have to look to see which has more or better info, but they are both books worth having).

Thanks for the reading suggestions. I’m slowly building a library.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Modern Homebrew Recipes is where the author talks about how he brews (see the section "My Process" starting on p 22).

For me, one of the key ideas from the book was: "mash only what needs to be mashed" and steep the rest.

As the author states: "This means that most of [his] mashes look identical regardless of the style of beer [he] is making" [p 27]. There's also discussion on different types of steeping and the flavor impacts that come from each type of steeping.

"Mashing only what needs to be mash" also allows for a reasonably straight forward approach to brewing salt and acid additions for mash pH and flavor.

And, there are a couple of HomeBrew Conn presentations (2012, 2013, 2016) where the author offers additional insights into the books.

edits: formatted for readability.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There are a couple of people in other forums who are actively brewing with the process in Modern Homebrew Recipes. This afternoon, one of those people posted a summary of their current process (link). If you like what you see there, there is more information in the books.

 

[RedL]

There are a couple of people in other forums who are actively brewing with the process in Modern Homebrew Recipes. This afternoon, one of those people posted a summary of their current process (link). If you like what you see there, there is more information in the books.

Thanks!

 

[tracer bullet]

The way I see it is - some numbers aren't necessarily target numbers to get to, they may be more of... numbers that are OK, but try not to exceed. Not goals, just a side effect of the other additions. I think of bicarbonate as being a side effect of raising the pH if needed but not a goal.

Everyone else covered it pretty well already but maybe that helps see it differently.

 

[csantoni]

There are a couple of people in other forums who are actively brewing with the process in Modern Homebrew Recipes. This afternoon, one of those people posted a summary of their current process (link). If you like what you see there, there is more information in the books.

That’s a great link. I’m new to messing with my water but I have arrived at a similar state. I target a Ca ppm and sometimes a Sulfate ppm and get there with gypsum and CaCl. I use the hoppy/balanced/malty ratios to guide me. So far the improvement to my beer has been noticeable and I haven’t had to worry too much about hitting a very specific target for multiple ions.

 

[tracer bullet]

That’s a great link. I’m new to messing with my water but I have arrived at a similar state. I target a Ca ppm and sometimes a Sulfate ppm and get there with gypsum and CaCl. I use the hoppy/balanced/malty ratios to guide me. So far the improvement to my beer has been noticeable and I haven’t had to worry too much about hitting a very specific target for multiple ions.

Calcium and Sulfate, or Chloride and Sulfate? Usually Choride / Sulfate are discussed and the Calcium seems to be a by-product. Not to say it's unimportant, but secondary to those other two. This is how I've seen it (I'm definitely fine being corrected).

 

[csantoni]

You’re right that the ratio is Chloride/Sulfate but I’ve been targeting a Calcium ppm as I think it is important for yeast health. I have really low-mineral water, which is good, but I’ve been trying to get at least 50 ppm Calcium in my final water profile. Sometimes I also want a specific Sulfate level but only for certain styles.