Water adjustments for imperial stout

[RyPA]

I am trying to get a water additions ready for an upcoming brewday of an imperial stout. I am getting close to my numbers except my bicarbonate is through the roof as I needed it to get my pH up. Can anyone help me out?

Here's the recipe on BF - I'll take any adjustments you can suggest to the target profile.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1445841/imperial-stout-chocolate-coconut

 

[tracer bullet]

I'm seeing 2 pics of the grain bill. I think you meant to add a different 2nd picture?

I just keep adding baking soda until I hit nearly 100ppm estimated of Na, so far it's been working for me. I read a lot about the flavor thresholds but it seems that level is under it, but it's just reading what others write to make that decision. Coupled with "what if" it can be tasted, I think for an Imperial it'd be a good thing not necessarily bad, so I feel OK skirting the line.

Somewhat related, it might be the oats messing with your numbers a bit. I've found that with the couple of NEIPA's I've made with them, the pH seems to be higher than if I made a similar grain bill without them (a more standard Pale Ale). So... I guess I'm saying that there's a chance you'll have a higher pH than estimated. But I do trust Bru'n water so... whatever it is showing for them is certainly based on a lot of experience as well.

 

[RyPA]

@tracer bullet you are correct, I attached the intended current bru'n water calc that I arrived at

My brain hurts from staring at bru'n water. I wish there was a tool that would allow you to enter your grain bill / base water / target water / available salts and it did the math for you.. or does this exist?

 

[tracer bullet]

I've never seen one but it could exist.

When I DIY, it's like this:
1) Add a little MgSO4 to get MG to about 10ppm (I don't know if I actually need to do this, it's an old habit per directions read about long ago)
2a) If I'm making a "hoppy" beer I add CaSO4 next
2b) If I make a "dark" beer I add CaCL2 next instead of the above
3) I add whichever of 2a or 2b didn't go in yet, until I get the ratios I want without going over a Ca limit (low for some beers i.e. stouts, high for others i.e. English ales)
4a) If my pH is high I add acid
4b) If my pH is low I add baking soda

Would be curious what others do but also don't wish to derail the thread. Hoping it's on topic...

 

[marc1]

I am trying to get a water additions ready for an upcoming brewday of an imperial stout. I am getting close to my numbers except my bicarbonate is through the roof as I needed it to get my pH up. Can anyone help me out?

Here's the recipe on BF - I'll take any adjustments you can suggest to the target profile.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1445841/imperial-stout-chocolate-coconut

The purpose of the bicarbonate is to get the pH up, so I don't see a problem. The bicarbonate shouldn't really be a target on its own, you add it for a purpose.
I usually just add gypsum and calcium chloride to get Cl and sulfate about where I want them, the add acid or baking soda to adjust the predicted pH. Make sure there's some calcium in it, and done.

 

[RyPA]

The purpose of the bicarbonate is to get the pH up, so I don't see a problem. The bicarbonate shouldn't really be a target on its own, you add it for a purpose.
I usually just add gypsum and calcium chloride to get Cl and sulfate about where I want them, the add acid or baking soda to adjust the predicted pH. Make sure there's some calcium in it, and done.

Ok, that should simplify it. I'm pretty new at water chem... so just getting cl and sulfates as desired is key, wherever other things fall doesn't really matter?

 

[marc1]

Ok, that should simplify it. I'm pretty new at water chem... so just getting cl and sulfates as desired is key, wherever other things fall doesn't really matter?

Those are the basics. If you are just getting started that'll work great. It also works pretty good if you've been doing it a while.

Sodium and magnesium are other flavor ions you can play with if you want.

The British do water chemistry a bit differently, so if you decide you want to go down that road for those mineralized styles, you can look into that, too.

 

[day_trippr]

Using pickling lime would be preferable to raise pH vs bicarbonate.
Alternatively, one could hold back the black grains for the first half of the mash...

Cheers!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Using pickling lime would be preferable to raise pH vs bicarbonate.

Please explain.

 

[day_trippr]

Less sodium.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Ok. So with RO, a certain amount of bicarbonate vs pickling lime might be preferable.

 

[RyPA]

I do not have pickling lime on hand. And I am using RO water

 

[DBhomebrew]

For imperial stouts, I'll typically use enough baking soda in the mash to keep pH in check. Once sparge water (straight RO) and kettle salts (for proper Ca and flavor) are factored in, overall sodium levels will stay within 60 or so ppm.

 

[RyPA]

I'll typically use enough baking soda in the mash to keep pH in check. Overall sodium levels will stay within 60 or so ppm.

For my NEIPA’s I’d get my water with the appropriate chloride/sulfate ratio and after doughing in I add enough baking soda to get my ph in the 5.5 range and I’ve had no ill effects.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

My brain hurts from staring at bru'n water. I wish there was a tool that would allow you to enter your grain bill / base water / target water / available salts and it did the math for you.. or does this exist?

Brewer's Friend will do this... (well, it won't tell you that you need 2 grams of gypsum, but you can vary the amounts of salts and it'll automagically update the "overall water").

You have to set up your water profiles first (I made ones for my actual local water, one for half local water & half RO, and one for all RO), then in the recipe editor, choose one of those "source water" profiles, further choose a "target water" profile, and then play with amounts of calcium chloride/gypsum/salt/acid, and the recipe editor will update your "result water" and predicted pH. As someone who just does no-sparge full-volume BIAB.

 

[RyPA]

Brewer's Friend will do this... (well, it won't tell you that you need 2 grams of gypsum, but you can vary the amounts of salts and it'll automagically update the "overall water").

You have to set up your water profiles first (I made ones for my actual local water, one for half local water & half RO, and one for all RO), then in the recipe editor, choose one of those "source water" profiles, further choose a "target water" profile, and then play with amounts of calcium chloride/gypsum/salt/acid, and the recipe editor will update your "result water" and predicted pH. As someone who just does no-sparge full-volume BIAB.

Thanks..I just bought a membership to BF after using the free version for years. I tried using their water calc tool but could not get it to output anything without entering addition amounts.

 

[tracer bullet]

And I am using RO water

This is key. I don't recall the details, but with tap water it does additional and unwanted things. Earlier threads with trusted people went over it. Combine with it being hazardous to skin and eyes and the chance of accidental contact there I quit using it altogether.

It's not *that* scary I guess but I decided to use some baking soda and call it a day.

 

[day_trippr]

What?

 

[marc1]

For my NEIPA’s I’d get my water with the appropriate chloride/sulfate ratio and after doughing in I add enough baking soda to get my ph in the 5.5 range and I’ve had no ill effects.

This doesn't seem right. You start with RO water. NEIPAs shouldn't need baking soda to raise the mash pH. If anything, they might need acid to lower it.

What is the purpose of adding the baking soda after mash in?

 

[RyPA]

This doesn't seem right. You start with RO water. NEIPAs shouldn't need baking soda to raise the mash pH. If anything, they might need acid to lower it.

What is the purpose of adding the baking soda after mash in?

After doughing in and checking my ph it's normally in the high 4's.

 

[MaxStout]

Alternatively, one could hold back the black grains for the first half of the mash...

Cheers!

Bru'nWater has a box you can check that excludes your roasted grains in the mash, so you can see how that will change your pH if you decide to hold them back for a late mash addition..

 

[RyPA]

Bru'nWater has a box you can check that excludes your roasted grains in the mash, so you can see how that will change your pH if you decide to hold them back for a late mash addition..

I switched my profile to Black Full and landed here, may roll with it.

I usually enter everything as if I am not sparging, but before mashing in I take out a gallon or so for sparging, after already adding the brewing salts.

 

[tracer bullet]

What?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...ash-water-or-in-the-mash.690896/#post-9078294

 

[day_trippr]

lol!
Ok, first, hardly "scary". Second, just don't do stupid things?

Cheers!

 

[tracer bullet]

lol!
Ok, first, hardly "scary". Second, just don't do stupid things?

Cheers!

Yeah, you do you. I have a 7 year old for one thing, and the other is that to properly do this you should use gloves and some amount of eye protection. I often work in a lab and I've seen some interesting accidents. I don't mean scary as in truly frightening, oh my god stuff, cats and dogs living together. But it's far enough down the path of being an actual problem that I didn't find it worth it.

I don't recommend anyone freak out, it's not hydrofluoric acid or anything. I'm just outlining my personal tolerance level for something I can easily substitute. I do suggest caution though, don't treat lime as flippantly as you might treat gypsum.

 

[hottpeper13]

My question is why are you using RO water? My well has 400 ppm alkalinity and 375 Cal Mag. With this chemistry I use 50/50 house /RO and get 200 ppm alkalinity and a pH of 5.4 for a RIS. Just a thought.

 

[RyPA]

My question is why are you using RO water? My well has 400 ppm alkalinity and 375 Cal Mag. With this chemistry I use 50/50 house /RO and get 200 ppm alkalinity and a pH of 5.4 for a RIS. Just a thought.

I don't even drink tap water, why would I want to make beer with it?

 

[Bramling Cross]

I don't even drink tap water, why would I want to make beer with it?

Your favorite breweries, restaurants, bakeries, coffee shops, etc use tap water.

 

[RyPA]

Your favorite breweries, restaurants, bakeries, coffee shops, etc use tap water.

I know, it can't be avoided in some cases, but with the option for a clean slate, why not use it?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Im drinking one now, I used well water with just sea salt added, forgot the whole salts addition, was really pissed but it came out great

 

[RyPA]

Im drinking one now, I used well water with just sea salt added, forgot the whole salts addition, was really pissed but it came out great

I sometimes think the juice is not worth the squeeze with salt additions. I am the guy that cant tell a difference between a $20 box of wine and a $1,000 bottle.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

the main thing with roasted malts is just keep the ph correct, everything else just needs to be balanced, if your adding a lot of flaked grains, it will taste soft anyway

 

[DBhomebrew]

One person's tap isn't necessarily another's. One person's tap in autumn isn't necessarily theirs in spring.

The variance across three years of reports on my local tap water was enough to swing the pH of a simple bitter from too-low all the way to too-high. And those were yearly averages. Seasonal differences of source water would swing that pH across an even larger range.

 

[mabrungard]

In a roasty beer, 90 ppm sodium would not be a problem at all. Sodium is very complementary in those beers.

But since the OP is using the free version of Bru’n Water, it doesn’t account for the fact that the sparging water doesn’t have baking soda in it. The supporters version does calculate the true sodium value in the finished beer which is somewhere around half the mash concentration, depending on sparge amount.

Baking soda is a good way to add alkalinity to mashing water. Pickling lime is good too, but it’s a bit less available and a bit more finicky due to its storage stability. I recommend baking soda.

 

[marc1]

After doughing in and checking my ph it's normally in the high 4's.

How are you measuring? A pale beer generally requires a little bit of acid for the mash.

In any case, it takes a while for the pH to come to equilibrium. Generally, you would predict what you need to add and add it all to the mash at the start. Then measure when the mash is well underway/completed. If it was off, you'd adjust for next time. What's your pH when the mash is finished?

 

[RyPA]

How are you measuring? A pale beer generally requires a little bit of acid for the mash.

In any case, it takes a while for the pH to come to equilibrium. Generally, you would predict what you need to add and add it all to the mash at the start. Then measure when the mash is well underway/completed. If it was off, you'd adjust for next time. What's your pH when the mash is finished?

I don't check ph at the end, I dough in and get everything stirred in/broken up, wait 5 minutes, then take the ph reading. Based on that reading I add baking soda to get it to 5.4-5.5 and call it a day.

 

[mabrungard]

I don't check ph at the end, I dough in and get everything stirred in/broken up, wait 5 minutes, then take the ph reading. Based on that reading I add baking soda to get it to 5.4-5.5 and call it a day.

Considering that the majority of the extract won't have exited the grain kernals that early in the mash, and that the buffering system in wort is directly tied to the extract, its not anywhere near accurate to use an early pH measurement as your guide. My 20 years of brewing measurements show that mashing pH changes during the course of a mash. Its not stable until around 45 minutes after mash in.

 

[RyPA]

Considering that the majority of the extract won't have exited the grain kernals that early in the mash, and that the buffering system in wort is directly tied to the extract, its not anywhere near accurate to use an early pH measurement as your guide. My 20 years of brewing measurements show that mashing pH changes during the course of a mash. Its not stable until around 45 minutes after mash in.

Copy and great point. Maybe will adjust up front and check every 10 mins. I need to find something to reduce ph, if needed

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

If your using brewing software such as brewers friend or any for that matter the software will allow you to get the water correct before you start based on the grain and salts added, after streamlining your system you shouldn't even need to check the mash

 

[RyPA]

If your using brewing software such as brewers friend or any for that matter the software will allow you to get the water correct before you start based on the grain and salts added, after streamlining your system you shouldn't even need to check the mash

I’ve always used brun water and even after entering my grain bill/base water, my ph ends up being lower than what brun water says.

I have not yet used BF’s calc