WARNING! for Ultimate Brewery Cleaner users

[Dude]

Is Star San a good enough cleaner? I know it’s a GREAT sanitizer, but a cleaner?

No, no and NO!
Star-san is not a cleaner. Charlie Talley says so himself.

If you haven't already downloaded this program, do it! This is some great info about Star-san and will really give you the best info out there.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/charlie-talley-five-star-chemicals-notes-brewcasts-58928/

 

[Jaybird]

Dude
How did I miss that thread. Good stuff!
Cheers
JJ

 

[Anthony_Lopez]

I'm guessing that Jeff is suggesting using the StarSan in your system as an acid rinse.

 

[Infidel]

Jeff,
Anything further?

Nothing new, I only have about an ounce of the suspect sample left.

The only test I did that did any damage to copper included a mix with a hot nitric acid solution to which I sprinkled some of the sample into. It boiled violently when I added it as expected. The source of the nitric acid was 5-star's Acid #6 which I have used a few times to passivate high end brewing systems I've built ($4,000+). These were HERMS type systems, and the Acid #6 did not produce visible damage to the copper coil, but the water did turn a little blue-green indicating it probably did strip some of the copper.
On those systems I originally cleaned with hot Ultimate Brewery Cleaner, did a hot water rinse, then ran the hot Acid #6 through them.

Copper is known to be not very reactive, one exception being nitric acid. Reading about copper tubing pitting in residential plumbing the presence of aluminum in the water source showed a high incidence of pitting (but not something I would expect to show up overnight, as in Jaybirds case.)

Trying to follow the nitric acid or nitrogen theory...
I tried diammonium phosphate and other yeast nutrients containing nitrogen sprinkled onto a hot low gravity wort with copper in it. I got some similar deposits there, but they looked quite a bit different. It was a huge dose of each nutrient, basically coating the surface. The wort without additional nitrogen sources came out clean.

That is the only thing I can think of in Jaybirds case: maybe an accidental addition of something that had a huge amount of nitrogen or a really f'd up water source.

I've personally used somewhere around 100lbs over the last 4 years, including several test batches in development that didn't work as well or I thought were too dangerous for the average homebrewer to handle or might have contained phosphates that I didn't want to use because of the potential for runoff into rivers.

The only thing I've damaged with it is aluminum, and I knew before hand that it could react with aluminum. That was a couple of years ago and I had an old aluminum pot that wasn't cleaning up, so I added a few tablespoons of UBC to it while it was boiling, still on the stove so the bottom was really hot. It formed a black layer that I couldn't get off.

I haven't gotten around to testing high chlorine water with it UBC and copper, that is next on the list.

-Jeff

 

[bendavanza]

Caskconditioned
run those metal exhaust filters in the dishwasher.

Jeff,

What about just submersing some copper and sprinkling some UBC on it (no mixing)? You may have tried that. Over the weekend I used a brewery cleaner (don't know what brand as it was given to me by a friend to try) to clean the metal filter we have on the exhaust of our kitchen stove. It wasn't getting the grease off (I was being impatient) so I added more, but I did not mix it. I noticed some pitting on it when I went to rinse it - where the cleaner landed and just sat. The filter is made of what looks like tin or something (something soft) so I'm sure that was the problem. Anyway, just a suggestion.

 

[Dwain]

O.K., what's the final vote on UBC? My system will be all stainless with CIP piping. I plan on circulating either PBW or UBC through my tubing/keggles using my march pump. Anyone see a problem with doing this? And finally, is a home brew supply place the only place to get either/both? Thanks - Dwain

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

O.K., what's the final vote on UBC? My system will be all stainless with CIP piping. I plan on circulating either PBW or UBC through my tubing/keggles using my march pump. Anyone see a problem with doing this? And finally, is a home brew supply place the only place to get either/both? Thanks - Dwain

Whatever happened with UBC discoloring Jaybird's brew system was not normal, so I would say either is just fine. But if it were me, I would go with the cleaner that has been used in both professional and home breweries with no problems. PBW has been pretty standard and a great product for me...if you're going to spend the money on a nice SS system, why risk it? My vote is for PBW.

 

[Catt22]

If one was to make a guess at what happened, it looks like the copper was in contact with the stainless steel components, nice galvanic corrosion problem there. Looks like nice deposits of sodium carbonate residue on the copper with copper oxide deposit on SS parts, wash the stainless parts with ammonia to remove the copper, wash copper in a mild acid to remove carbonate deposits. In future one might want to clean dissimilar metals seperately to prevent creative chemistry projects like this.

The above is the solution to the mystery. The corrosion was caused by a galvanic reaction between the copper and the stainless. Case closed.

 

[Jaybird]

I am (for now) sticking w/ the Oxyclean every brew and the PBW every 3rd brew. I have been really happy w/ the outcome. I did that for years on my system and know it works.
Cheers
JJ

 

[Dwain]

Sorry to repeat, but

And finally, is a home brew supply place the only place to get either/both? Thanks - Dwain

 

[Jaybird]

Sorry to repeat, but

AHB is the only place you can buy UBC as they make it in house, as far as I know they dont distrubute it to anyone but home brewers. As far as PBW that is made by 5 star and you can buy it from any 5 star distributer, they are everywhere.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

The above is the solution to the mystery. The corrosion was caused by a galvanic reaction between the copper and the stainless. Case closed.

This would be my guess too. In the galvanic 'test' that Infidel did he had a test coupon of copper tubing but also had a copper IC in the solution...and the IC and test coupon were the anode/cathode. Then he 'threw the mash paddle in for good measure'. It looks like the test should have been such that the anode/cathode were the test coupon and mash paddle.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

I guess my feeling is that if the stuff doesn't work well with copper and stainless, what are they doing selling it for homebrewing? Just about every home brewer I know personally and have seen on this board have a mixture of copper and stainless in their brewery. If 5-star can make a product that cleans both metals safeley, that is the industry go-to product IMHO. Maybe the creators of UBC can do some reformulating so that this galvanic reaction doesn't happen.

 

[Catt22]

The galvanic reaction can happen with any solution which acts as an electrolyte. The same thing may well occur with PBW if dissimilar metals are left to soak together in the solution. I'm not a chemist, so I can't say for sure, but I think the PBW contains similar chemicals. The way to avoid the corrosion problems is to clean the dissimilar metals separately. When that is not possible as with CIP systems using both copper and SS, about the only thing you can do shorten the contact time.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

The galvanic reaction can happen with any solution which acts as an electrolyte. The same thing may well occur with PBW if dissimilar metals are left to soak together in the solution. I'm not a chemist, so I can't say for sure, but I think the PBW contains similar chemicals. The way to avoid the corrosion problems is to clean the dissimilar metals separately. When that is not possible as with CIP systems using both copper and SS, about the only thing you can do shorten the contact time.

My point is that while any solution "may" have this effect, PBW does not. I've never encountered it in my brewery, and neither have I heard about this sort of thing happening anywhere else. UBC has a problem with cleaning dissimilar metals together, while PBW does not appear to.

Has anyone done an experiment with PBW similar to what was done with UBC? Specifically, adding copper and stainless steel to the same solution of PBW? If I had some UBC on hand, I'd do some side-by-side testing myself...but I don't think I'll spend any money on that product until this issue is resolved.

 

[Catt22]

I don't use either product, so I can't speak from direct experience on this. I still think the same thing could happen with PBW under similar circumstances. The problem is not with the product, but with the procedure. I've had something similar happen with oxyclean a long time ago. It was copper and aluminum in that case. Any solution which has significant electrolytic properties can facilitate a galvanic reaction.

 

[mbtech]

This appears to be an isolated incident. We have sent out a literal ton of this product with nothing but good feedback.

Are there any people out there who have used Ultimate Brewery Wash on their copper wort chiller several times and have had this problem as well?

Forrest

Just wanted to let everyone know there is another bad batch of this stuff out right now. I recently let the recommended dosage sit in a corney keg overnight and the inside of the keg was extremely rough, like microscopic pits all over. I used an SOS type pad (mild) and scrubbed like hell to get the smooth surface back. I emailed AHBS about this a day ago, no response yet. Ill update when they contact me.

 

[mbtech]

Forrest has contacted me about this issue and is working to resolve the matter.