WARNING! for Ultimate Brewery Cleaner users

[BuffaloSabresBrewer]

My guess is it will all magically come off and it was a freak reaction to the chemicals the gubment puts in our water.

 

[Jaybird]

So I just got done w/ a complete brewery PBW wash and rinse (What a pain in the A$$ my pump ran for about 1 1/2 hours non stop those pumps are the bomb!!) I was able to get all the blue out of the stainless (Thank GOD) what the hell was all that? But I think ALL the copper is a lost cause my IC looks like.....uh I don’t know WIERD is all I can say. All the weird color and what looked like pits are gone, but I am not sure I will use this IC again? Anyway at least all the stainless has been salvaged, I think anyway.
This pack of UBC is going back to the creator tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what the issue was?
Cheers
JJ

 

[BarleyWater]

FWIW, I got some UBC a while back. It worked well on all my equipment, even my IC, except my kettle. It looked like it pitted the bottom where the little granules had landed. I took some Bar Keepers Friend and a scrubby pad to it and it was fine, but I haven't used UBC since.

 

[Jaybird]

Can you use BKF on copper?

 

[BarleyWater]

Can you use BKF on copper?

I do all the time. It makes it look like new.

I'm actually looking at the can right now, and it has copper on the label. Probably worth a shot.

 

[Jaybird]

I do all the time. It makes it look like new.

I'm actually looking at the can right now, and it has copper on the label. Probably worth a shot.

I am not really too worried about what it looks like, (I do need to get some of that stuff though!) I am more concerned about what is imbedded into my copper IC and the inside of my copper transfer lines.

 

[Jonnio]

I am not really too worried about what it looks like, (I do need to get some of that stuff though!) I am more concerned about what is imbedded into my copper IC and the inside of my copper transfer lines.

If you can clean your IC to be visually fine then I wouldn't worry about it...copper transfer lines I would replace unless you know someone with a fiber optic camera that can verify the insides aren't all messed up.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

What size chiller was it?

Forrest

 

[Jaybird]

What size chiller was it?

Forrest

It's one that I made. It's a monster 1/2" soft copper by 50'
The chiller is going to be fine. I started playing around last night w/ some of those gray scrub pads the ones I use to clean stainless. It's going to look like new after I am done.

 

[billtzk]

Not to my knowledge. Here's what 5 Star has to say about PBW

BENEFITS

• Replaces Caustic Soda cleaners
• Effective at All Temperatures
• Free Rinsing
• Safe on Polycarbonate surfaces
• Safe to handle
• Generates 4 - 5% Oxygen
• Non-hazardous & Non-corrosive
• Excellent hard water tolerance
• Removes protein soil and staining, baked on carbon, and fatty acids

DESCRIPTION
P.B.W. is a buffered alkaline detergent that has been proven to be more than an
effective substitute for caustic soda cleaners. Because of its unique formulation of
buffers and mild alkalis, it is safe on skin as well as soft metals such as stainless steel,
aluminum, and on plastics. P.B.W. uses active oxygen to penetrate carbon or protein
soils and is not effected by hard water. The oxygen also helps in reducing B.O.D. and
C.O.D. in wastewater, which is an added environmental benefit.

P.B.W. has been formulated as a C.I.P. cleaner and is very effective in removing protein
soils found on brew kettles, fermenters, conditioning tanks, filters and all packaging
areas. The concentrations to remove these soils are typically in the 1% range.
However, due to soil and water conditions this concentration will vary. To help in hard
water areas P.B.W. has been formulated with enough chelators to tolerate hard water
over 17 grains.

P.B.W. is an excellent choice as a soak cleaner because it does not require
excessive heat as do most caustic based cleaners. This product has cleaned
brass and copper filters, and industrial aluminum surfaces successfully.

I question whether PBW is really safe with polycarbonate. I was soaking keg parts in PBW and hot water in this Food Container, Round, Polycarbonate, Clear, 22 qt. I left it overnight and the next day I found that the container had cracked and split open along the bottom. I use the container regularly and I'm sure it was sound before I put the PBW in it. I'm not certain the PBW caused the failure, but I am sure the container was sound before I put the PBW in it, and I can't think of any other explanation. I won't be putting PBW in anything with polycarbonate again, just to be safe. It was an expensive container.

(Note to PBW manufacturer... affected, not effected in this case: "... is not affected by hard water".)

 

[billtzk]

How can what is being described as "pitting" be removed with any other cleaner? Are those of you who are calling this "pitting" sure that it isn't a deposit of some kind? A pit would be a hole. Another cleaner like BKF shouldn't be able to eliminate a pit.

 

[CBBaron]

How can what is being described as "pitting" be removed with any other cleaner? Are those of you who are calling this "pitting" sure that it isn't a deposit of some kind? A pit would be a hole. Another cleaner like BKF shouldn't be able to eliminate a pit.

Sure you can. You thin the rest of the material to match.

If it is a small reaction with the base material the material can swell causing a bump and crater. Another cleaner that neutralizes the reaction may be able to reduce the amount of pitting by removing the swelling. Also as you not there could be some kind of deposit instead or in addition to.

Craig

 

[Saccharomyces]

I do all the time. It makes it look like new.

I'm actually looking at the can right now, and it has copper on the label. Probably worth a shot.

BKF = oxalic acid. Seems safe on stainless and copper.

 

[Chris_Dog]

The outcome of this interests me greatly as I just got a few #'s of UBC and have not used any yet. I will wait and see what results AHB comes up with before using any.

 

[Jaybird]

The good thing about how they mix UBC is they only mix in about 100# batches or so, don’t think for 1 minute that I wont use this stuff again. I have all the confidence in the world in Forrest and Jeff to find out what the problem is and make the necessary corrections, they have been nothing but attentive and very willing to make everything right, and that speaks volumes of their company.
The sample is in the hands of Jeff (the guy that made the UBC) as of this morning, and he is going to test the sample that I used and get back to us.
Cheers
JJ

 

[FSR402]

Any of you out there that has it why not mix some up and try it out ons some scrap copper and see what it does. If nothing, then you are all set.

 

[Yambor44]

I am impressed with this customer service. There might be ten companies in the whole world that would take this level of support.

Impressive.

Me too. I agree. Cudos!!

 

[Chris_Dog]

The good thing about how they mix UBC is they only mix in about 100# batches or so, don’t think for 1 minute that I wont use this stuff again. I have all the confidence in the world in Forrest and Jeff to find out what the problem is and make the necessary corrections, they have been nothing but attentive and very willing to make everything right, and that speaks volumes of their company.
The sample is in the hands of Jeff (the guy that made the UBC) as of this morning, and he is going to test the sample that I used and get back to us.
Cheers
JJ

Are you kidding? Because they mix UBC in 100# doesn't relive AHB of responsibility of quality. I for one will not be using this product until they have a chance to review your sample. I totally understand AHB's commitment and commend their efforts for the same. I however am not going to use the product until AHB has a chance to review the sample.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

We are still looking into the cause of the problem. It appears to be a deposit and not pitting.

 

[kladue]

If one was to make a guess at what happened, it looks like the copper was in contact with the stainless steel components, nice galvanic corrosion problem there. Looks like nice deposits of sodium carbonate residue on the copper with copper oxide deposit on SS parts, wash the stainless parts with ammonia to remove the copper, wash copper in a mild acid to remove carbonate deposits. In future one might want to clean dissimilar metals seperately to prevent creative chemistry projects like this.

 

[Infidel]

I spent lots of time trying to recreate the issue using the returned sample. First I just mixed at the same ratio described by Jaybird (maybe a little stronger) in a stainless kettle with an immersion chiller at 140F and held it at that temperature for 45 minutes. After examining the chiller I couldn't find anything such as deposits or pitting.
Then I got a little crazy (don't try this at home) and took a car battery charger (I considered using a Miller welder in stick welding configuration, but decided against it).
I used a racking cane holder to hold a 1' long piece of copper, about 6" of it went into the solution, and attached the positive connection on it and the negative went to the wort chiller still in the hot solution which I heated up to about 160F and threw in my stainless mash paddle for good measure. I set the charger for 12v and the gauge read about 6 amps when I plugged it in. Lots of tiny gas bubbles (hydrogen and oxygen production?) from the positive electrode. I ran it for about 4 minutes. You can see the positive electrode in the picture - it's the blue one with what I am guessing to be a copper carbonate finish. I dried the electrode in my oven. I then added several ounces of UBC to the mixture and repeated the process with a new electrode. I ran the battery charger for about 5 minutes, then let it sit for 24 hours, (the thermometer in the kettle read 34F this morning) dried it in the oven and took all of the pieces to work. I rinsed the second electrode with cold water, wiped it once with a paper towel. No deposits. The finish looks like it was roughened up, but actually feels smoother. It is the one on the right. I soaked it in a hot StarSan solution.
The immersion chiller that ended up serving as the negative electrode (partially insulated from the bottom of the kettle by a coil of PVC hose) came out looking just fine, no deposits (the sodium ions should have been attracted to it), but there was some discoloration from the gasses being produced by the positively charged piece of copper on the second application of electricity.
So then I took a section of copper, soaked it in a strong solution made from the returned sample for 30 minutes in water that started out at about 150F, then I removed it, put it in a wet paper towel, sprinkled some of the cleaner in question on it and made a paste of the solution to surround the piece of copper, wrapped it in another paper towel, wrapped that in aluminum foil and put in in our toaster oven at about 200F for 30 minutes. I cooled in in the sink under cool running water and ran a paper towel over it once to remove any paste. No deposits, no pitting, just obvious discoloration. It is the piece on the left in the picture. I cut it in half and soaked the other half in hot StarSan solution for 10 minutes, rinsed and wiped it with a wet paper towel. No deposits, no pitting, but some discoloration.

First piece of copper, baked in a paste of the returned product.
Second piece is the same after a soak in StarSan.
Third piece, after 6 amps were run through it - the positive electrode side.
Fourth piece, a more tortured piece after a StarSan soak.

Any other suggested torture tests?
I have no idea what could have made it leave such deposits (and nicely spaced deposits) but if anyone has suggestions I'll do what I can.

No blue discoloration to the mash paddle thrown in. There were blue solids in the kettle this morning but since copper carbonate is not water soluble that was not surprising.
The copper used in the tests was refrigeration grade, the same stuff we use to make our immersion and counterflow chillers. It might be more pure than water grade.

We'll send you a bottle of Saniclean to run through your system. It doesn't clean that well but leaves a nice finish on copper and stainless. It has phosphoric acid in it, so DO NOT mix it with PBW, UBC, or anything else!!!

If anyone is wondering why I did the electricity thing... a solution of sodium carbonate (yes, I realize there are other ingredients) in water, carbonate ions should head towards the positive electrode, and sodium towards the negative electrode... according to the reading I did at least while trying to find out what types of deposits might have formed on the copper.

-Jeff

 

[Jaybird]

Jeff
Just wondering, are you suggesting I run starsan through my system? Will that clean up all the copper?
JJ

 

[caskconditioned]

Jeff,

What about just submersing some copper and sprinkling some UBC on it (no mixing)? You may have tried that. Over the weekend I used a brewery cleaner (don't know what brand as it was given to me by a friend to try) to clean the metal filter we have on the exhaust of our kitchen stove. It wasn't getting the grease off (I was being impatient) so I added more, but I did not mix it. I noticed some pitting on it when I went to rinse it - where the cleaner landed and just sat. The filter is made of what looks like tin or something (something soft) so I'm sure that was the problem. Anyway, just a suggestion.

 

[Infidel]

If StarSan didn't foam that wouldn't be a problem.. but it does.
There is a similar product to Star San that doesn't foam. Saniclean. While the Austin Homebrew website lists it as a sanitizer, I don't believe 5-Star recommends it for this use. It might have something to do with the federal laws regarding labeling something a "sanitizer". The labels for the product suggest using it after a caustic cleaning cycle and rinse (PBW in the case of 5-Star).
Send me a message with your address and I'll see if I can get a bottle out to you tomorrow, Forrest will pick up the tab.
I'm unable to explain what happened in your situation.
-Jeff

 

[Infidel]

Jeff,

What about just submersing some copper and sprinkling some UBC on it (no mixing)?

I've tried that, when I tested the immersion chiller I only had 3 gallons of solution made, so some of the chiller was above the level of the liquid. So some of the particles rested above the liquid level where they were exposed to steam the entire time. They would cling, but a cold water rinsing removed them with no scrubbing.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Jeff,
How about using 4 pieces of copper.
The first, as control, use material mixed in solution at recommended amount and complete rinse.
Second, use material mixed in solution at recommended amount and inadequate rinse. Third, use material mixed in solution at recommended amount and no rinse.
Fourth, triple the recommended material amount mixed in solution and no rinse.
Allow all samples to air dry.

 

[Jonnio]

I would also coat any test pieces in moderate SG wort and or trub. There could easily be a reaction that is being missed with just copper and clean water/PBW.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

Jeff,
Anything further?

 

[The Pol]

Jeff
Just wondering, are you suggesting I run starsan through my system? Will that clean up all the copper?
JJ

Star San wont foam in your system J... I run it through my HERMS all the time. Unless you are spraying it, the March pump doesnt have enough force to whip up a foam. Star San is completely reasonable to be used in your system J... I do it all the time. And, you know me... I invented the scrubby!

YOU CAN RUN STAR SAN THROUGH A SYSTEM WITH NO REAL FOAMING

 

[Jaybird]

Star San wont foam in your system J... I run it through my HERMS all the time. Unless you are spraying it, the March pump doesnt have enough force to whip up a foam. Star San is completely reasonable to be used in your system J... I do it all the time. And, you know me... I invented the scrubby!

YOU CAN RUN STAR SAN THROUGH A SYSTEM WITH NO REAL FOAMING

Pol
Is Star San a good enough cleaner? I know it’s a GREAT sanitizer, but a cleaner?
I scoured my IC for about 2 hours then rinsed really good and used it. It turned out just fine. I am not going to worry tooooo tooo much about the copper transfer lines. I pulled them all apart cleaned them as good as I could with brushes and any tools I could construct to get in them. They looked ah, OK at best, we will see. I brewed a batch (a tester batch) and I am going to see if this reflects any weird problems. If it does, I will have a killer system for sale CHEEP.......J/J.... I am sure it will be just fine.
I didn't scrubby though my SWMBO forgot to get me one (It was probably my fault) when she was out. I had to use a bag.


So I guess you can say it Pol "JJ Your not scrubby worthy" ****JJ bows his head in shame****