Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Toxxyc]

So guys, I have a question related to this thread. We are fermenting lager strains warm - but why? Is it for the clean fermentation profile, or just because we want true lagers? I'm asking as I made a pseudo pilsner the other day and was too lazy to use lager yeast, so I ended up just using what was right before me - S-04.

I made the beer with pils malt, a bit of melanoidin for colour and a dash of dextrin for head retention. I made it using Perle hops for both bittering and a late addition and when cooled I pitched S-04 at 17°C and it fermented there until completion. I bumped the temp to 20°C and when it sat there for a few days I dropped to 10°C in prep for gelatin fining.

However, life got in the way and I kinda forgot about the beer in there, and after 2 weeks I opened the fermenter, remembered it was in there and hastily kegged it. I pulled a sample and I'll be damned - it has to be the most lager-ish ale I've ever made. It's clean, the hop profile is spot on and while the colour is maybe a bit too dark (too heavy with the melanoidin), it's a really really fine beer. The S-04 fermented SUPER clean at the slightly lower temperatures and from the initial taste I couldn't pick up much issue with the yeast AT ALL.

On the other hand, I've made a true lager not long ago as well, using a good recipe and fermented with Lallemand's Diamond Lager yeast. I made a starter to pitch the correct amounts and after slow fermenting at the yeast's perfect temps (11°C) I lagered the beer for 6 weeks before kegging. It's been in the keg now for a month, and it's only starting to drop it's yeast flavour now. I treated it perfectly, fined it well and for starters, the beer refuses to clear. There's a permanent haze (not chill haze) that doesn't drop. On top of that, there's a definite yeast flavour in there. It's not off, like phenols or whatnot, it actually tastes like yeast. Like sourdough, almost.

Now don't get me wrong, I love me a good lager. I'm a sucker for a pale, clear, easy drinking lager any day of the week and I've made a few really cool ones - but it can't be just me who thinks that maybe lager yeasts are (gasp) overrated?

So my question again - why do we keep sticking to lager yeasts?

 

[Twinkeelfool]

Regardless of ale or lager, I pick yeast strains I like the flavour and character of.

 

[Miraculix]

I don't know what is clean for you, but s04 never fermented clean for me. The only thing it did was throwing off sulfur, when fermented low, which actually is lager-ish. Maybe that's what you are getting as lager type flavour?

 

[Toxxyc]

Actually not sulphur at all, no. S-04, for me, ferments a lot cleaner when fermented on the cooler side (and pitched sufficiently) that I can honestly say it's one of the cleanest yeast I have used in a long, long time. The only yeasts that ferment cleaner are HUGE lager colonies, like when I pitch on top of a lager yeast cake, but that doesn't happen often.

 

[Miraculix]

Actually not sulphur at all, no. S-04, for me, ferments a lot cleaner when fermented on the cooler side (and pitched sufficiently) that I can honestly say it's one of the cleanest yeast I have used in a long, long time. The only yeasts that ferment cleaner are HUGE lager colonies, like when I pitch on top of a lager yeast cake, but that doesn't happen often.

Hmmm... I tried it at around 16c with a 1.042 blonde wort, was not clean to me. But I might have enforced esters by adding 10% invert. But I got a little bit of sulfur, which actually was kind of nice in that one.

 

[ebbelwoi]

If anyone's interested, Anne Flesch of Fermentis is interviewed about this study here :
https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/216

Thanks for posting this as well.

I sat down and listened to the whole thing, and I'm trying to remember if there was anything in the podcast that I hadn't read before. For the most part, it sounded like they were rehashing the figures from the sensory analysis mentioned in the "Rediscover..." link.

Basically, a pils made with w34/70 can be fermented at 20C, at a 5g/L pitch rate and it won't taste noticeably different from one fermented cold, at a 10g/L pitch rate. They didn't rehydrate or oxygenate in their studies.

I'm sure I'm leaving some things out, but if anyone else noticed any takeaways from the podcast, feel free to post, so that people who don't like listening to podcasts (like me) can get the information as well.

 

[dmtaylor]

@Toxxyc, I have had the same experience with S-04 recently. I wanted a characterful estery Australian sparkling ale, but what I had on hand was S-04 so I used that, fermented warm at about 70-72 F...... and it turned out so very clean that I renamed it to be a lager. After that batch, I will be using S-04 a whole lot more in the future. It might turn out even cleaner than trusty US-05.

This was not always my experience in the past. Years ago I had S-04 batches that turned out to be sulfur bombs, or just nothing spectacular. My opinion has changed. I think this is a very useful yeast. It makes me wonder also if quality control by the manufacturer might have improved or something, but who knows.

For those who disbelieve.... I encourage you to just try it again on a new batch and see what you think.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

if anyone else noticed any takeaways from the podcast, feel free to post, so that people who don't like listening to podcast (like me) can get the information as well.

That was pretty much why I posted it - I can't be bothered to listen to podcasts but I know some people like them, and usually these kinds of things are just rehashing the article but can have the odd extra insight, but not enough for me to bother listening to the whole thing.

 

[Miraculix]

@Toxxyc, I have had the same experience with S-04 recently. I wanted a characterful estery Australian sparkling ale, but what I had on hand was S-04 so I used that, fermented warm at about 70-72 F...... and it turned out so very clean that I renamed it to be a lager. After that batch, I will be using S-04 a whole lot more in the future. It might turn out even cleaner than trusty US-05.

This was not always my experience in the past. Years ago I had S-04 batches that turned out to be sulfur bombs, or just nothing spectacular. My opinion has changed. I think this is a very useful yeast. It makes me wonder also if quality control by the manufacturer might have improved or something, but who knows.

For those who disbelieve.... I encourage you to just try it again on a new batch and see what you think.

Strange. Maybe they changed something in the manufacturing process, or they somehow changed the base they are multiplying it from?

 

[dmtaylor]

Strange. Maybe they changed something in the manufacturing process, or they somehow changed the base they are multiplying it from?

It really does seem like a whole new yeast, as if their source became contaminated or mixed up with a clean lager yeast. It's really really clean. And come to think of it, I've brewed not just one but two batches with S-04, and both with the same super clean results that I loved. And now for a Scottish ale batch that I'll be brewing tonight or tomorrow, I was considering using S-04 as well... but now I am thinking, it's just TOO clean so I think I will use something else! Maybe BRY-97, I haven't used that one in a long time. I'll have to see what else I've got in storage. I always keep various dry yeasts on hand, for years and years, because hey, they don't go bad. Meanwhile, the Wyeast 1728 that I bought last week is utterly DEAD even after 4 days in the starter, so that ain't happening unless I experience a miracle in the next 36 hours.

 

[Miraculix]

It really does seem like a whole new yeast, as if their source became contaminated or mixed up with a clean lager yeast. It's really really clean. And come to think of it, I've brewed not just one but two batches with S-04, and both with the same super clean results that I loved. And now for a Scottish ale batch that I'll be brewing tonight or tomorrow, I was considering using S-04 as well... but now I am thinking, it's just TOO clean so I think I will use something else! Maybe BRY-97, I haven't used that one in a long time. I'll have to see what else I've got in storage. I always keep various dry yeasts on hand, for years and years, because hey, they don't go bad. Meanwhile, the Wyeast 1728 that I bought last week is utterly DEAD even after 4 days in the starter, so that ain't happening unless I experience a miracle in the next 36 hours.

I had some dead dry yeasts. Takes years, but it happens. Just recently a three year over the expiry date lallemand abbey wouldn't do anything after two days .. had to throw in mj 42 for rescuing attempts. That worked after half a day. ... The mj was also oooold, didn't have a date on it.

Maybe thes04 yeast is actually new. Sounds more like notty to me

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Interesting about S-04 - not a yeast I use much. But I heard various dark rumours from commerical brewers here around the time of the White Labs diastaticus contamination a few years ago, that some Fermentis yeasts were...not behaving like pure cultures, shall we say. There's also been microbiological evidence in the past that Notty was definitely not composed of 100% of the same strain.

So my suspicion is that QC across the industry was not great, but a few years ago the multi-$m lawsuit against White Labs provided some motivation to clean things up across the board.

That's purely my speculation though.

 

[Miraculix]

Sounds reasonable.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'll buy that, as well as some really cheap real estate in fabulous New Mexico.

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

I'll buy that, as well as some really cheap real estate in fabulous New Mexico.

Ocean front with a view?

 

[ebbelwoi]

That was pretty much why I posted it - I can't be bothered to listen to podcasts but I know some people like them, and usually these kinds of things are just rehashing the article but can have the odd extra insight, but not enough for me to bother listening to the whole thing.

I think there was a minor insight somewhere in that podcast, but I'd forgotten it by the time it was over. Maybe it was her confirmation of ale pitch rates at ale fermentation temps. Maybe not.

At any rate, thanks again for posting the podcast link, but also thanks again for posting the link to the original article.

 

[ebbelwoi]

@Toxxyc, I have had the same experience with S-04 recently. I wanted a characterful estery Australian sparkling ale, but what I had on hand was S-04 so I used that, fermented warm at about 70-72 F...... and it turned out so very clean that I renamed it to be a lager. After that batch, I will be using S-04 a whole lot more in the future. It might turn out even cleaner than trusty US-05.

No breadiness on this batch? Had you gotten it in the past?

 

[dmtaylor]

No breadiness on this batch? Had you gotten it in the past?

No, nothing excessive anyway, past or present. Not like other yeasts such as K-97 which I found to be relatively nasty with the yeastiness.

 

[Bohern]

Question for you all. i have been using 34/70 for some warm ferments under pressure but get a lemon like taste from his yeast it seems. First off i thought it was chemistry or maybe too much latic acid. Does anybody get the same and if so do you have a yeast to suggest? I have a Lallamend Diamond version in the fermentor currently to see what difference I get.

 

[Miraculix]

Question for you all. i have been using 34/70 for some warm ferments under pressure but get a lemon like taste from his yeast it seems. First off i thought it was chemistry or maybe too much latic acid. Does anybody get the same and if so do you have a yeast to suggest? I have a Lallamend Diamond version in the fermentor currently to see what difference I get.

No, never heard of it, must have a different reason than the yeast.

 

[Toxxyc]

So I started using S-04 as I had to buy a lot of yeast in a short time a while ago. I searched for the cheapest yeast I could find and it ended up being bulk bricks of S-04 from a large scale supplier. I ended up buying around 5kgs of S-04 for around ZAR800 per kg. So around ZAR4000 for 5kgs. It works out to around $280 for the lot. VERY cheap. I ended up using it for everything - fermentation, beers, even bread. Only recently did I decide to make a blonde and that was on hand. The blonde turned out so great that it's now one of my favourite yeasts, and I don't think I'll use something else in a hurry when I need a clean fermentation.

Could be QC - who knows?

As a PS: I got a CRAPLOAD of sulphur from a lot of other lager yeasts, even fermenting perfectly in the recommended ranges.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Question for you all. i have been using 34/70 for some warm ferments under pressure but get a lemon like taste from his yeast it seems. First off i thought it was chemistry or maybe too much latic acid. Does anybody get the same and if so do you have a yeast to suggest? I have a Lallamend Diamond version in the fermentor currently to see what difference I get.

It hasn't happened to me, but I've read numerous reports of people getting lemon in their w34/70 brews.

 

[Bohern]

It hasn't happened to me, but I've read numerous reports of people getting lemon in their w34/70 brews.

Thanks. It is subtle so the beer is still drinkable but it is all in the finish. I have done my homework and have not had that issue with any other brew or yeast. At first I was using WAY too much lactic acid to adjust PH and was sure that was what I was getting. for now I am trying a Lallemand Diamond to see how it fares.

 

[bwible]

Question for you all. i have been using 34/70 for some warm ferments under pressure but get a lemon like taste from his yeast it seems. First off i thought it was chemistry or maybe too much latic acid. Does anybody get the same and if so do you have a yeast to suggest? I have a Lallamend Diamond version in the fermentor currently to see what difference I get.

A side story - some years ago my late wife and I were in a brewpub and she ordered an Octoberfest which was one of her favorite beers. She said it tasted lemony and tried to send it back. The bar staff told her there was nothing wrong with it and she just didn’t understand the Octoberfest style. We never went back there again.

 

[bwible]

So guys, I have a question related to this thread. We are fermenting lager strains warm - but why? Is it for the clean fermentation profile, or just because we want true lagers? I'm asking as I made a pseudo pilsner the other day and was too lazy to use lager yeast, so I ended up just using what was right before me - S-04.

I made the beer with pils malt, a bit of melanoidin for colour and a dash of dextrin for head retention. I made it using Perle hops for both bittering and a late addition and when cooled I pitched S-04 at 17°C and it fermented there until completion. I bumped the temp to 20°C and when it sat there for a few days I dropped to 10°C in prep for gelatin fining.

However, life got in the way and I kinda forgot about the beer in there, and after 2 weeks I opened the fermenter, remembered it was in there and hastily kegged it. I pulled a sample and I'll be damned - it has to be the most lager-ish ale I've ever made. It's clean, the hop profile is spot on and while the colour is maybe a bit too dark (too heavy with the melanoidin), it's a really really fine beer. The S-04 fermented SUPER clean at the slightly lower temperatures and from the initial taste I couldn't pick up much issue with the yeast AT ALL.

On the other hand, I've made a true lager not long ago as well, using a good recipe and fermented with Lallemand's Diamond Lager yeast. I made a starter to pitch the correct amounts and after slow fermenting at the yeast's perfect temps (11°C) I lagered the beer for 6 weeks before kegging. It's been in the keg now for a month, and it's only starting to drop it's yeast flavour now. I treated it perfectly, fined it well and for starters, the beer refuses to clear. There's a permanent haze (not chill haze) that doesn't drop. On top of that, there's a definite yeast flavour in there. It's not off, like phenols or whatnot, it actually tastes like yeast. Like sourdough, almost.

Now don't get me wrong, I love me a good lager. I'm a sucker for a pale, clear, easy drinking lager any day of the week and I've made a few really cool ones - but it can't be just me who thinks that maybe lager yeasts are (gasp) overrated?

So my question again - why do we keep sticking to lager yeasts?

This is a good question. I keep coming back to cream ales and reading about cream ales and the history. Ales lost popularity with the immigration of many German immigrants who came to the US and brought their knowlege of lager beers. Lager rose quickly and became the top selling beer. So the American brewers started fermenting cream ales to compete. I think at the time they were making cream ales as golden beers but fermented with ale yeast so the Americans could compete, having a similar beer. And they could turn out their beers faster than the Germans doing traditional lagers and thus gained an advantage. I think some cream ales today are actually lagers (as are some Irish Red ales). But I keep reading about this and going back to it.

 

[Bohern]

My only guess is maybe I am not letting it age / lager long enough.

 

[Toxxyc]

I think some cream ales today are actually lagers (as are some Irish Red ales). But I keep reading about this and going back to it.

Interesting you mention this, I actually prefer my Irish Reds with a lager yeast. My best IRA was made with a Diamond Lager yeast cake a few months ago. That beer tanked FAST.

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting you mention this, I actually prefer my Irish Reds with a lager yeast. My best IRA was made with a Diamond Lager yeast cake a few months ago. That beer tanked FAST.

I have yet to try that yeast. Next order, it will be in the basket!

Did you ferment it warm? How is the flocculation compared to 3470?

Can one abuse it for a tropical stout at 30c room temperature without excessive fusels? I don't like headaches...

 

[bwible]

Interesting you mention this, I actually prefer my Irish Reds with a lager yeast. My best IRA was made with a Diamond Lager yeast cake a few months ago. That beer tanked FAST.

Killian’s being one of the best known examples that is a lager

 

[dmtaylor]

Killian’s being one of the best known examples that is a lager

Killian's is just Coors with about 1% roasted barley added for color. Nothing more. Here is a Coors recipe.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/coors-lite-clone-recipe.654372/