Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Northern_Brewer]

FYI, Chris White is giving a talk on "Pseudo Lager Brewing for Summer Styles" at 2.30 EDT (6.30 GMT) today in the lecture series from the Brewers Journal Canada
https://brewerslectures.com/schedule/
I also like the look of the one tomorrow from Lallemand's Avi Shayevitz on yeast biodiversity.

C$17.23 inc tax to register for three days of lectures.

 

[Nubiwan]

FYI, Chris White is giving a talk on "Pseudo Lager Brewing for Summer Styles" at 2.30 EDT (6.30 GMT) today in the lecture series from the Brewers Journal Canada
https://brewerslectures.com/schedule/
I also like the look of the one tomorrow from Lallemand's Avi Shayevitz on yeast biodiversity.

C$17.23 inc tax to register for three days of lectures.

Are the lectures good/interesting. Can you register and view later? Recordings?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Pass - I couldn't do it in the end, I got on the wrong end of a 3-hour work call....

 

[Texas]

Let's say I want to do a WF Lager at 72F. Is pressure fermented required?

 

[Panderson1]

Going to brew a 12 gal Munich Helles. Will start reading thread.

Any quick tips? I have a Fermzilla and spunding blowtie valve. It would be cool to try and ferment under pressure and warmer. From what I hear this will speed up the process. I still would have to "lager" it for a few weeks after it's finished fermenting?

 

[Chetbrews]

Going to brew a 12 gal Munich Helles. Will start reading thread.

Any quick tips? I have a Fermzilla and spunding blowtie valve. It would be cool to try and ferment under pressure and warmer. From what I hear this will speed up the process. I still would have to "lager" it for a few weeks after it's finished fermenting?

I have turned out a pretty crushable lager that has taken about 3 weeks from grain to tap using a fining agent like gelatin or biofine to drop out the yeast in the beer. Time and patience is your friend when it comes to lagering. One of my best beers was a warm pressurized fermented Oktoberfest that I forgot about that lagered in my keezer for a few months. Best beer that I have made in my 10+ years of homebrewing.

 

[ba-brewer]

Going to brew a 12 gal Munich Helles. Will start reading thread.

Any quick tips? I have a Fermzilla and spunding blowtie valve. It would be cool to try and ferment under pressure and warmer. From what I hear this will speed up the process. I still would have to "lager" it for a few weeks after it's finished fermenting?

Warm speeds up the yeast and pressure slows it down, so it is sort of a wash as far as time goes for fermentation. Pressure should produce a cleaner beer so maybe less lager time.

 

[Snark_Wolf_Brewing]

Let's say I want to do a WF Lager at 72F. Is pressure fermented required?

Pressure fermentation is only required if you really wanted to. Saflager 34/70 can ferment at 72F without throwing off-flavors, based on what I've read here in the 40+ pages that make up this thread.

 

[Gusso]

Let's say I want to do a WF Lager at 72F. Is pressure fermented required?

I wouldn't say it's required but that's what I did this past Sunday. I used a single pack of 34/70 and my gravity has dropped from 1.066 to 1.013 in about 60 hours since pitching (under 25 psi).

 

[Texas]

I wouldn't say it's required but that's what I did this past Sunday. I used a single pack of 34/70 and my gravity has dropped from 1.066 to 1.013 in about 60 hours since pitching (under 25 psi).

What was the temperature?

 

[Gusso]

Low of 69, high of 72.

 

[Texas]

Low of 69, high of 72.

Cool, thank you!

 

[Beermeister32]

Seems like we are re-tracing the roots of San Francisco pioneers who introduced Steam Beer, produced with lager yeast fermented at ambient temperatures, originally in the 1800's. Anchor used the process in the 1800's along with many other breweries that produced Steam Beer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_beer

 

[Gusso]

Now, 72 hours since pitching one pack of 34/70, gravity is 1.010. Bubbling is slowing and temp is slightly dropping (down to 67).

 

[Craft_brewer]

I've been brewing lagers warm for a long time now, namely 34/70 at ale temps but tonight have thrown a warm wort over a slurry of WLP830 bock lager yeast at 83 fahrenheit cooling to 17 where it started violently bubbling away almost immediately so this is probably my most extreme yet and will keep you guys posted in a few weeks time

I started fermenting warmer due to actually not being able to detect any difference apart from time in the cold Vs warm batches so just stuck with the fast lager

 

[Craft_brewer]

Just stumbled across this too for anyone interested

https://brulosophy.com/2017/02/20/y...-cool-vs-warm-in-a-lager-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Craft_brewer]

Well the jury's out on my hot-start Munich dunkel. It's beginning to condition up and is a bit "hollow" tasting. Aroma is great. Sweet, bready with a touch of raisin from the melanoidin. No hints whatsoever of fermentation by products, just that hollowness to the body. I did miss OG by 8 points though and used some sucrose to boost abv but that has added to a lower fg so attribute to that factor

 

[Toxxyc]

What yeast did you use, if I might ask? I also made a warm-start Helles and I'm a bit underwhelmed. This is a beer for a competition and it's not bad, but it's far from "great".

 

[Beer666]

Do i remember correctly that Wyeast 2007 is good for warm ferments?

 

[Craft_brewer]

This was German Bock lager Wyeast but I've also used Danish lager and lots of 34/70 Weihenstephener.

Really can't note any difference in taste or aroma cold or warm and to be honest will just continue to ferment at ale temperatures. Critiquing the latest again last night the fermentation character was excellent. Very clean with only malt aromas, it's just my recipe that sucked on this particular occasion (Munich 1 which didn't convert properly, 2% melanoidin) it's possible the Helles you're referring to is just a recipe you're not fond of too. I find I'm really picky on Helles and also that it takes many months of lagering to really taste good, that's just too long for me to wait

 

[ba-brewer]

This was German Bock lager Wyeast but I've also used Danish lager and lots of 34/70 Weihenstephener.

How did the Danish Lager do, was that wyeast 2042?

Also what temp and under pressure or not?


I am doing a cold ferment of 2042 and was thinking about doing a warm fermented lager with some of the yeast cake. Have not decided if I will do it under pressure or not.

 

[Craft_brewer]

How did the Danish Lager do, was that wyeast 2042?

Also what temp and under pressure or not?


I am doing a cold ferment of 2042 and was thinking about doing a warm fermented lager with some of the yeast cake. Have not decided if I will do it under pressure or not.

It actually is the only yeast that finished dry for me (1.006 when I'm used to 1.010) and took a long time to condition as usual for a light lager, but it was very neutral really and had a nice crisp character I liked and didn't quite get from anything else I've tried. This was White Labs "Copenhagen lager" but hear it's same product as Wyeast Danish

 

[bwible]

You cant just go spouting you will make good lager because you've made it the way germans did. Nor thats its not a lager because its brewed warmer. Lagering simply implies storing beer longer cooler.

I’ll admit to not having read all 41 pages of this thread. I was at a fellow club member’s house about a week ago. He had a cold fermented beer and a warm fermented beer made with the same yeast and the same recipe. He gave me the triangle test and I could not tell any difference in any of them. I believe he said it was Wyeast 2124, a variation of the 34/70.

I myself have been just warm fermenting lager recipes with ale yeast. And am getting results I like. So far I have used Wyeast 1332, 1056, 1968, and 1099. Wyeast actually lists blonde ale under a few of these as styles favorable for the yeast. So I thought why not? Ferment at ale temps with ale yeast then store the finished beer cold for a couple weeks. So far believe it or not I think 1099 was my favorite of these and I’m about to do that one again. It drops pretty clear too.

 

[bwible]

STRAIN:
1099

WHITBREAD ALE
™
Species: Saccharomyces cerevisiae
Profile: A mildly malty and slightly fruity fermentation profile. It is less tart and dry than Wyeast 1098 British Ale. With good flocculation characteristics, this yeast clears well without filtration. Low fermentation temperatures will produce a clean finish with a very low ester profile.
Metric Temperature Range: 18-24 °C

18C or 64F is considered low fermentation temp for this strain. All of us should be able to get there!

...And as a bonus, after I ferment my lager with it I can re-use it to make a bitter, ESB, English Pale Ale or English IPA. Win, win.

 

[HutBrew]

Just wanted to tap into this thread, as I’ve been lurking on it for a while.

I just brewed my first warm fermented lager. I can report that I had great results with WLP810 San Francisco Lager fermented between 60-70*F

I mashed in my Pilsen heavy grain bill a month ago today, and just kegged it yesterday. OG was 1.051, and it finished at 1.009. Apparent attenuation of 82%, this was unexpected from WLP810 which had listed an expected attenuation between of 65%-72%.

I cold crashed this beer for about 5 days, and she came out crystal. Only used a primary bucket, no secondary racking. The aroma from the bucket was that of a lager, and upon tasting the hydrometer sample- which was a bit yeasty- it definitely tasted like the real deal. Perhaps i’m not a refined “lager connoisseur” but I definitely enjoy them. I liked this beer un-carbonated and I cant wait to try it when she’s properly bubbly.

Just wanted to say thanks to @applescrap for starting this thread. The thread gave me confidence to warm ferment lagers and I couldn’t be more happy with the results.

If you’re on the fence about warm fermenting like I was, just try it. It may very well open the door to using lager yeast.

I’ll be back on this thread in a few weeks to post my fellow beer drinking friends’ opinion on this beer.

 

[bwible]

Another trick/tip/cheat for lagers (anybody doing it?) is melanoidin malt. It is supposed to replicate the flavor of a decoction mash. I used it in a beer I made recently. The flavor is great but the issue I have with it is color. It is somewhere around 30L so even 3 oz pushes a 5 gallon batch out of the 5L range. Tough to make a golden lager with it. It would probably add to a Vienna lager or an amber lager though.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Don't think this has been posted, Fermentis have done some experiments to demonstrate the robustness of 34/70 to different temperatures (and pitch rates etc) :

https://fermentis.com/en/rediscover-saflager-w-34-70/
Just for translation :
12 Plato = 1.048 SG, 16 Plato = 1.065, 20 Plato = 1.083
12°C = 54°F, 16°C = 61°F, 20°C = 68°F
100g/hL = 20g in 20 litres = 18.9g in 5 US gallons = 2/3oz in 5 US gallons

Standard Fermentis pack size is 11.5g, so effectively what they're saying is most of their tests were pitching 2 packs per homebrew, C5* is 4 packs per homebrew, C6 is half a pack of yeast per homebrew - and sees an increase (more than doubling?) in "off notes" that is the only obvious variation in all the trials (apart from what's going on in "sweet" which I can't really see).
View attachment 679672
View attachment 679673

If anyone's interested, Anne Flesch of Fermentis is interviewed about this study here :
https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/216

 

[VikeMan]

^ I find it fascinating that the lowest temperature Fermentis tested was 12C (54F), i.e. didn't test truly cold traditional lager fermentation temperatures. Basically, they proved that the strain performs very similarly at various warm temperatures as it does at other warm temperatures.

 

[Stand]

Would have been nice if they included a range that went lower, but the ideal temp range they list for that yeast is 12°C – 15°C (53.6-59°F).

I wonder how they arrived at that number?

 

[Beermeister32]

Aren’t a lot of these fermented traditionally/historically around 46F?