Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Miraculix]

Interesting brew. Let us know if it's any good. Why did you decide to do it no-boil, just to save time?

I've asked this in several other threads and never got an answer, so I'll try again. If you sparge with cold water does it make any difference if the water is alkaline? I either do full volume mashes, or a small sparge, but my water is liquid dolomite (limestone with a lot of magnesium too.) Oddly enough, the water tastes good. I've been acidifying the sparge water or using RO water, but I'd rather not if it's unnecessary.

The main reason was, I just wanted to try it out. If this works out well, I just won't boil any more. Would save much time and hassle with my housemates. Way less smell (I love the smell of hops and malt, they don't), less energy consumption, less time blocking the kitchen.

I did a full brew in one hour, sounds fantastic doesn't it?

I am also curious if the taste changes.

And I am heavily into ancient gruit beers, so you see, many reasons to give it a try

I am seriously no water expert. I just follow basic rules of thumbs, mainly if it's pale get the bicarbonate as low as possible and if it's dark ramp them up. I buy bottled water accordingly. But I guess it would not make much of a difference in the cold sparge water, but again, I might be completely wrong.

As far as I understood it, it is not the alkalinity of the water that is important but the buffering capacity, which you could have meant, as a lot of people confuse that.

 

[ZmannR2]

I'm making my first marzen in a few weeks. That recipe looks like jamils?

I'm going to use Dan's Marzen on homebrew association.

Is this your first marzen? How do you like it?

What have you settled on brewing? I'm in your boat and am ready to brew my first lager as a Marzen as well. I don't want something too dark. I want a good light German Marzen thats still malty n sweet though

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Went to the London Oktoberfest yesterday, I got the hangover of death... I only had 4 beer!

I guess that's understandable if they were German measures - or do you do the old-school Swiss Maß of 1.5 litres?

It's definitely the worst bit of getting old though, the way hangovers get sooo much worse!

 

[Miraculix]

I guess that's understandable if they were German measures - or do you do the old-school Swiss Maß of 1.5 litres?

It's definitely the worst bit of getting old though, the way hangovers get sooo much worse!

No it was a German Mass, 1Liter each..... Luckily enough I drank the Oktoberfest Beer and not something I drink regularly.... only thinking about this type of sweet beer makes me feel ill again

agree with the age..... although I always head really bad hangovers when I overdid it. Well, doesn't get better though... Skol!

 

[seabrew8]

What have you settled on brewing? I'm in your boat and am ready to brew my first lager as a Marzen as well. I don't want something too dark. I want a good light German Marzen thats still malty n sweet though

This comes in at just under 10SRM:

From my rough notes;

Marzen

72%eff
5.25gal

6.5# pils
5# munich 10L
0.33# C60

1oz Hallertau 60min + 0.5oz 20min

5.25gal is fermenter volume.

Its roughly the same recipe has dan's marzen but they state its 13 SRM. However, i never done a decoction.

 

[applescrap]

The main reason was, I just wanted to try it out. If this works out well, I just won't boil any more. Would save much time and hassle with my housemates. Way less smell (I love the smell of hops and malt, they don't), less energy consumption, less time blocking the kitchen.

I did a full brew in one hour, sounds fantastic doesn't it?

I am also curious if the taste changes.

And I am heavily into ancient gruit beers, so you see, many reasons to give it a try

I am seriously no water expert. I just follow basic rules of thumbs, mainly if it's pale get the bicarbonate as low as possible and if it's dark ramp them up. I buy bottled water accordingly. But I guess it would not make much of a difference in the cold sparge water, but again, I might be completely wrong.

As far as I understood it, it is not the alkalinity of the water that is important but the buffering capacity, which you could have meant, as a lot of people confuse that.

This sounds so interesting. I also have a thread on quick brewing. Hoping if this works out you will share there too. My best is around 2.5 hours for 5g and 3hr for 10g. Thats with 45 min mash and boil, so theoretically 30 each I could brew in 2 hours. So if I have this right you isomerized hops in separate pot and added that to a mash which was unboiled. 30 minutes at 152 would theoretically kill most bacteria I assume. The question being if flavor is changed with boil and i have no reason to be convinced flavor changes all that much. This could revolutionize how I brew, 1 hour and done, i dont like it.

I love it.

 

[Brulosopher]

Quick brewing you say? Tomorrow’s article may be of interest to you [emoji58]

 

[Miraculix]

Quick brewing you say? Tomorrow’s article may be of interest to you [emoji58]

Looking forward to it! I love your unorthodox page mate. Always refreshing and full of new ideas.

 

[Miraculix]

This sounds so interesting. I also have a thread on quick brewing. Hoping if this works out you will share there too. My best is around 2.5 hours for 5g and 3hr for 10g. Thats with 45 min mash and boil, so theoretically 30 each I could brew in 2 hours. So if I have this right you isomerized hops in separate pot and added that to a mash which was unboiled. 30 minutes at 152 would theoretically kill most bacteria I assume. The question being if flavor is changed with boil and i have no reason to be convinced flavor changes all that much. This could revolutionize how I brew, 1 hour and done, i dont like it.

I love it.

I will let you know about the outcome!

Yes, I cooked a hop tea on the side, let it cool down and added it afterwards to the uncooked Wort. Then I topped up with water to reach my desired gravity of 1.05.

Fermentation is slowing down atm, I think I am getting close to fg, will probably dry hop after the we and bottle the next we afterwards.

 

[Miraculix]

Quick brewing you say? Tomorrow’s article may be of interest to you [emoji58]

May I make a suggestion for an article? Maybe you could do a boil vs no boil article. One beer with traditionally boiled Wort and one with unboiled Wort and hop tea on the side instead.

A style which doesn't put too much accent on the hop flavour might suite best, like a helles or some English ale, or a stout.

Basically everything that needs hops only for bittering would be suitable, as the hop tea on the side might change the aroma development of the hops, compared to boiling the hops in the full Wort volume with the sugars being present in the water.

Alpha isomerisation is enhanced through the absence of sugar in the hop tea, so in theory less hops should be needed to reach the desired ibus. I used the brewers friend online calculator to get to my levels.

 

[Brulosopher]

May I make a suggestion for an article? Maybe you could do a boil vs no boil article. One beer with traditionally boiled Wort and one with unboiled Wort and hop tea on the side instead.



A style which doesn't put too much accent on the hop flavour might suite best, like a helles or some English ale, or a stout.



Basically everything that needs hops only for bittering would be suitable, as the hop tea on the side might change the aroma development of the hops, compared to boiling the hops in the full Wort volume with the sugars being present in the water.



Alpha isomerisation is enhanced through the absence of sugar in the hop tea, so in theory less hops should be needed to reach the desired ibus. I used the brewers friend online calculator to get to my levels.

We’ve done it once with a Berliner Weisse:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/14/boil-vs-no-boil-berliner-weisse-exbeeriment-results/

Will definitely add it to the list!

 

[Miraculix]

We’ve done it once with a Berliner Weisse:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/14/boil-vs-no-boil-berliner-weisse-exbeeriment-results/

Will definitely add it to the list!

Great read, but does not really reflect what I am after. No boil in this special case also means that the lactos get an increased amount of time to munch on the Wort so we do not know if changes in flavour are based on the no boil or on the lacto's extended feast.

Glad to hear that you will add it to the list, thanks!

 

[TANSTAAFB]

What is the highest temp you've fermented 34/70 at? I just had back surgery and can't lift the fermenter into my fridge! I have my electric BIAB setup dialed in so I can brew w/o lifting anything but I ended up pitching S-05 in a Steam Beer recipe because my basement stays around 68ºF and didn't want to risk off flavors with a lager yeast. Has anyone done a Steam/ CA Common w/ 34/70?

 

[Miraculix]

What is the highest temp you've fermented 34/70 at? I just had back surgery and can't lift the fermenter into my fridge! I have my electric BIAB setup dialed in so I can brew w/o lifting anything but I ended up pitching S-05 in a Steam Beer recipe because my basement stays around 68ºF and didn't want to risk off flavors with a lager yeast. Has anyone done a Steam/ CA Common w/ 34/70?

Around 23c, no off flavours perceptible.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What is the highest temp you've fermented 34/70 at? I just had back surgery and can't lift the fermenter into my fridge! I have my electric BIAB setup dialed in so I can brew w/o lifting anything but I ended up pitching S-05 in a Steam Beer recipe because my basement stays around 68ºF and didn't want to risk off flavors with a lager yeast. Has anyone done a Steam/ CA Common w/ 34/70?

For a California Common, you might want to try Mangrove Jack's M54 Californian Lager, which is meant to ferment at those kinds of temperatures, floccs better than 34/70, is cheaper and is more true to style?

 

[lincolnubrewer]

Has anyone use s-189? I'd prefer this yeast over 34/70. I feel that s-189 give a better maltier flavor to my lagers. I have done maibock,marzen, and pilsners. I have not done warm fermenting and curious about s-189.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Around 23c, no off flavours perceptible.

Wow, that's way warmer than I would've expected! I shoulda just pitched the damn 34/70 and added to the thread!

For a California Common, you might want to try Mangrove Jack's M54 Californian Lager, which is meant to ferment at those kinds of temperatures, floccs better than 34/70, is cheaper and is more true to style?

I've never tried any of the Mangrove Jack's yeasts...good stuff? My LHBS is really small and limited (not bitchin, it's the first time I've HAD a LHBS in the 8 years I've been brewing!) so I'll have to get it online or while traveling

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Has anyone use s-189? I'd prefer this yeast over 34/70. I feel that s-189 give a better maltier flavor to my lagers. I have done maibock,marzen, and pilsners. I have not done warm fermenting and curious about s-189.

I've used it at 70F with pretty much no perceptible off flavors. It does wonders in a märzen.

 

[CJ-3]

Wow, that's way warmer than I would've expected! I shoulda just pitched the damn 34/70 and added to the thread!







I've never tried any of the Mangrove Jack's yeasts...good stuff? My LHBS is really small and limited (not bitchin, it's the first time I've HAD a LHBS in the 8 years I've been brewing!) so I'll have to get it online or while traveling

I've used Mangrove Jack's in the past and it is my preferred yeast when I can find it.
With that being said though I have not tried to warm ferment with it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've never tried any of the Mangrove Jack's yeasts...good stuff? My LHBS is really small and limited (not bitchin, it's the first time I've HAD a LHBS in the 8 years I've been brewing!) so I'll have to get it online or while traveling

As with any range of yeast, there's good ones and bad ones, I don't really do lagers so haven't used M54 myself but it seems to be alright (and it's half the price of 34/70 here at least, which should pay the postage....). 34/70, S-189 and M54 are the main dry yeasts for high-temperature lagers, and people seem to get reasonable results with all of them, but I figure since M54 is sold as a Californian strain then it's most appropriate for you. But if Fermentis is what you can get hold of readily, then use one of theirs.

 

[MaryB]

Watching this, as we get deeper into winter my pantry can drop to the mid 50's and that is where I park the fermenters this time of the year. Right now it is 66f back there 4 feet off the floor, probably 62 at floor level... Need to do 2 more batches of my house ale then I want to experiment a bit and a lager would hit the spot!

 

[jalc6927]

I've brewed a few lager recipes with ale yeast at room temps and it came out fine

Did a yuengling lager with s-23 and compared it to the real thing and it was hard to perceive any difference in flavor

If we can get away from the "legalese" and the "proper wording" we can press on and all make great beer

The lager temp experiment from brulosophy were quite enlightening

 

[jakwi]

I've read that New Belgium's 1554 is mashed at 160 and uses lager yeast fermented at ale temps. I've been thinking about giving a clone a shot since I can't find it here in Florida. Now if I could only figure out what the secret spices are.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I've read that New Belgium's 1554 is mashed at 160 and uses lager yeast fermented at ale temps. I've been thinking about giving a clone a shot since I can't find it here in Florida. Now if I could only figure out what the secret spices are.

Sorry for the off-topic post, but....

@jakwi - if you get a solid line on this, let me know - I love 1554.

I have brewed a recipe from Brooklyn Brew Shop's book called "Bruxelles Black." It's not exactly like 1554 but it is very good and in my opinion satisfies the craving for 1554.

Here are some details/notes from that brew, if you are interested:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=582348

Hope this helps provide some ideas -

Ron

 

[triethylborane]

Got a 6.5gal carboy in my garage, full of H20, temps are beginning to hit 56-58f as displayed on the temp strip. Basement temp strip on same setup but a milk stout that is nearing the end of ferm shows 60-62f. Lager time in full swing my dudes.

 

[cmac62]

May I make a suggestion for an article? Maybe you could do a boil vs no boil article. One beer with traditionally boiled Wort and one with unboiled Wort and hop tea on the side instead.

A style which doesn't put too much accent on the hop flavour might suite best, like a helles or some English ale, or a stout.

Basically everything that needs hops only for bittering would be suitable, as the hop tea on the side might change the aroma development of the hops, compared to boiling the hops in the full Wort volume with the sugars being present in the water.

Alpha isomerisation is enhanced through the absence of sugar in the hop tea, so in theory less hops should be needed to reach the desired ibus. I used the brewers friend online calculator to get to my levels.

I just did a Scottish 70, mashed at 156 for 1 hour, split the mash, boiled half for about 45 mins, heated the other to 170 and added the hop tea to both as they chilled at about 150. I also did no chill for both beers. Bottled both batches this last Saturday. Will let carb for a week (my HBC meets this Sunday) I'll try to do a triangle test, but may just do an unlabeled side by side. Well see how it goes.

 

[Miraculix]

I just did a Scottish 70, mashed at 156 for 1 hour, split the mash, boiled half for about 45 mins, heated the other to 170 and added the hop tea to both as they chilled at about 150. I also did no chill for both beers. Bottled both batches this last Saturday. Will let carb for a week (my HBC meets this Sunday) I'll try to do a triangle test, but may just do an unlabeled side by side. Well see how it goes.

AWESOME!!!!!

Please make sure to tell me when you post those results somewhere here in the forum via PM, so that I am not missing it!

Thanks for the effort!!!

Much apreciated!

But why did you heat it to 170? That may change the protein structures in the wort

 

[cmac62]

AWESOME!!!!!

Please make sure to tell me when you post those results somewhere here in the forum via PM, so that I am not missing it!

Thanks for the effort!!!

Much apreciated!

But why did you heat it to 170? That may change the protein structures in the wort

Maybe unnecessary but I thought it better safe than sorry and did not want it to get infected. As I understand it some of the off chems are created between 170 and boil.

 

[Miraculix]

Maybe unnecessary but I thought it better safe than sorry and did not want it to get infected. As I understand it some of the off chems are created between 170 and boil.

Yes, dms. Better safe than sorry and not going unnecessarily close to that range

 

[cmac62]

AWESOME!!!!!

Please make sure to tell me when you post those results somewhere here in the forum via PM, so that I am not missing it!

Thanks for the effort!!!

Much apreciated!

But why did you heat it to 170? That may change the protein structures in the wort

We are both already on a Raw Ale/no boil thread. I'll probably post my results there:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=540077

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I just started reading Session Beers by Jennifer Talley (she also has an article in the most recent Zymurgy). Found it very interesting that La Bici, 5 Rabbit Cerveceria's Vienna lager using Omega Bayern Lager 114 is fermented at 65-67°F
http://www.omegayeast.com/portfolio/bayern-lager/
I thought it might be a Anchor Steam-like strain, but the description says it's from one of the oldest breweries in Munich.

 

[applescrap]

I just did a Scottish 70, mashed at 156 for 1 hour, split the mash, boiled half for about 45 mins, heated the other to 170 and added the hop tea to both as they chilled at about 150. I also did no chill for both beers. Bottled both batches this last Saturday. Will let carb for a week (my HBC meets this Sunday) I'll try to do a triangle test, but may just do an unlabeled side by side. Well see how it goes.

Ohh man cant wait to see these results. Please post them for us all to admire. Triangle would be sweet, but I trust your honest opinion. I am late on no boil, but am all in. Infact since I am pushing my pumkin beer for t-day I should try this inside on stove instead of outside with big pot and e setup. Its lightly spiced and hopped. Ill add the pumpkin and spices at sack squeeze.

 

[applescrap]

Finished the 5g of wlp830 marzen. Not sure I admitted this (embarrased:sly until now, but I forgot to double the hops. Probably closer to 20 ibus then 40. I pulled the 830 at day 10 and I think that created some acetaldehyde or the yeast does that. In light ibus more prevalent in taste, I wonder. The 5g of wlp800 tastes much better and has little to no acetaldehyde or off flavors. Just wanted to throw that out there. Here is some thoughts on acetaldehyde.

 

[jakwi]

Sorry for the off-topic post, but....

@jakwi - if you get a solid line on this, let me know - I love 1554.

I have brewed a recipe from Brooklyn Brew Shop's book called "Bruxelles Black." It's not exactly like 1554 but it is very good and in my opinion satisfies the craving for 1554.

Here are some details/notes from that brew, if you are interested:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=582348

Hope this helps provide some ideas -

Ron

Man me too, I'm really not much for clone beers in general, but since I can't buy it I guess I'll have to make it. Thanks for the link!

So I don't see the recipe anywhere, and I'm not sure what book you're referring to in your post. Any chance you could pm me the details?

 

[TasunkaWitko]

PM sent.

 

[Brulosopher]

Has anyone use s-189? I'd prefer this yeast over 34/70. I feel that s-189 give a better maltier flavor to my lagers. I have done maibock,marzen, and pilsners. I have not done warm fermenting and curious about s-189.

We’ve used it:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/15/ye...w-3470-vs-saflager-s-189-exbeeriment-results/

Got a 6.5gal carboy in my garage, full of H20, temps are beginning to hit 56-58f as displayed on the temp strip. Basement temp strip on same setup but a milk stout that is nearing the end of ferm shows 60-62f. Lager time in full swing my dudes.

Woo!

What is the highest temp you've fermented 34/70 at? I just had back surgery and can't lift the fermenter into my fridge! I have my electric BIAB setup dialed in so I can brew w/o lifting anything but I ended up pitching S-05 in a Steam Beer recipe because my basement stays around 68ºF and didn't want to risk off flavors with a lager yeast. Has anyone done a Steam/ CA Common w/ 34/70?

We fermented 34/70 at 82F/28C and people liked it!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/04/18/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

 

[TANSTAAFB]

We fermented 34/70 at 82F/28C and people liked it!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/04/18/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/[/QUOTE]

That's freakin awesome! Just moved where there's an active homebrew club, really hope they enjoy geeking out to this stuff...are club attempts to replicate xbmts asking too much?!

 

[thehaze]

@Brulosopher

Would you reckon 34/70 could work at 68F in an Imperial Baltic Porter? Would the final beer achieve the same *crispness at warmer temps.?

 

[lincolnubrewer]

We’ve used it:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/15/ye...w-3470-vs-saflager-s-189-exbeeriment-results/




Woo!




We fermented 34/70 at 82F/28C and people liked it!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/04/18/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

Thanks for the link. Have you done anymore exbeerments for s189 at higher temperatures? I'd prefer it over 34/70. Just a little bit more malt presence to me, or my lagers recipes has gotten better with s189, or both.

 

[Miraculix]

I only brewed with 34 70 warm once. Beer turned out fine but the flocculation is just a pain. I was used to good ale type flocculation but this one won't drop down... I would try the californian strain mentioned above from mangrove jack, or the 189.