Want to switch to electric...

[mongoose33]

Im not sure I understand what it is you're doing. The whole LODO thing , I mean. The grist will already have oxygen in it. and do you or do you not aerate your wort before pitching? I'm rather confused why one would go to the trouble of all this . what does it do ,really.

The short version is that oxidation of the grist and the wort, prior to the boil, robs malt flavors from the result.

The approach is to try to limit that as much as possible. Crushing the grain JUST before dough-in so the crushed pieces of grain are exposed to the atmosphere as short a time as possible (some even go so far as to fill the mash tun with CO2, and to purge their lines as well). Pre-boil the strike water. Add potassium metabisulfite (campden tablets) to the strike water as an oxygen scavenger. Using a mash cap to isolate the mash from the atmosphere. No splashing. Underlet the grain when doughing in. Transfer wort to boil kettle with no splashing, and use a wort cap on top of the wort in the BK to, again, limit atmosphere exposure until it's boiling....

Once you're boiling the wort you have the same condition as preboiling the strike water. Once you transfer to fermenter you do need to oxygenate (usually, though the dry yeast people say you don't have to with that). In my case, i'll pitch an active starter into the wort so the yeast gets going as fast as possible and consumes the oxygen ASAP.

It's all fiddly, and is a somewhat lengthy learning curve while one figures out how to manage all the moving parts.

I brewed Sunday doing this. I took a sample of the wort using a pipette, checked gravity with my refractometer (a few drops), and then squirted the rest in my mouth. Wowee! Sweet, flavorful--it's almost shocking.

I also took a sample with a turkey baster for checking pH. Let that cool for a while in a "frozen" whiskey glass, pH was fine. After all that, tasted that sample, and the flavors were very muted compared to the original pipette. Why? Exposed to air, a lot.

 

[augiedoggy]

Im not sure I understand what it is yoHome Brewing Beer you're doing. The whole LODO thing , I mean. The grist will already have oxygen in it. and do you or do you not aerate your wort before pitching? I'm rather confused why one would go to the trouble of all this . what does it do ,really.

theres a lot I dont know about it but my take so far as to why many breweries do this..

A piece of steak left out turns a dull bownish color on the outside but not in the middle as the oxygen permeates the surface and gives the outside of the steak a dull (sometimes desirable) flavor as a result. Same with lodo. Grain stays fairly fresh oxygen free on the inside until its crushed.. if you oxygenate the wort for the yeast its done after the flavors are created with the hops and grain its different than making those flavors with stale (or less fresh ) ingredients to begin with. (hops that are usually sold sealed in nitrogen sealed bags to prevent the same oxidation in flavor).
I dont do it personally but ive seen enough evidence to show it does have an effect on how things come out.

 

[doug293cz]

Ok, enough LoDO discussion here. This is the "Electric Brewing" forum. We have a separate sub-forum for LoDO. Please take any further LoDO questions/discussions there. Future LoDO discussion in this thread will be deleted as Off Topic. Thanks for your cooperation.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[Rob2010SS]

One problem. You wired it with 3 wires so you cant run a controller that powers 120v pumps. That requires 4 wires, hot hot neutral ground.

Bobby (or anyone else who really knows electrical) i wired in the 14-30 outlet with the 2 hots, neutral and ground. Does it matter which hot goes to which side of the breaker? I don't think it does from what I've read but figured I'd ask

 

[Goowa]

Bobby (or anyone else who really knows electrical) i wired in the 14-30 outlet with the 2 hots, neutral and ground. Does it matter which hot goes to which side of the breaker? I don't think it does from what I've read but figured I'd ask

I'm pretty sure there's no polarity in the hots, just keep them consistent as line1 and line2 throughout all of your wiring end to end.

 

[Rob2010SS]

All fixed! 14-30 outlet installed. New system should be here in 1-2 weeks!

 

[brewman !]

There is another, IMO much better solution that doesn't heat the recirculating wort directly with an element, but indirectly.
One of my brewer friends uses a small eHERMS. Wort is recirculated through a small SS coil (made of 4-6' of 3/8" or 1/2" tubing) placed in a small 1 or 1.5 gallon pot filled with water. The water in that pot is heated with an ordinary 120V water heater element. Since the volume is small, it's quickly heated, even all the way up to boiling, and very responsive. A PID controls the heating element through a temperature sensor on the output of the coil.
There's no way you'd ever scorch your wort with that system, similar to a HERMS, but without the huge ballast of the HLT.

Check out the Time4Another1 Youtube channel. He built a really nice one.

I'd build one like he did if I was going to use RIMS. I actually bought the parts. I went induction instead.

I didn't like my HERMS. The heat transfer between the HLT water and the coil is poor because the HLT water is pretty much stagnant. It works best if the HLT is boiling. But then it needs to cool down to 170F for sparging.

 

[brewman !]

I'm an EE. You can implement everything a big panel does with a software based controller for 1/10th the cost and work.

CraftBeerPi + 2 or 3 SSrs + 3 18DS20 and you've got a great system.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm an EE. You can implement everything a big panel does with a software based controller for 1/10th the cost and work.

CraftBeerPi + 2 or 3 SSrs + 3 18DS20 and you've got a great system.

Yes, you can create a system that will work with the above, but there is no way to shut off the voltage if (when) an SSR fails. Even a working SSR will provide enough leakage current when off to give a substantial shock (a few mA.) I wouldn't use, and won't recommend, an electrical control system that does not have provision for mechanical disconnect (unplugging is not adequate IMHO.) The disconnect should be manually operated to protect against software/hardware control failure.

Brew on

 

[brewman !]

Turn off the breaker in the panel.

Every brew controller out there uses a relay, MOSFET, SCR, thyristor or ssr. How many have a manual disconnect ?

 

[doug293cz]

Turn off the breaker in the panel.

Every brew controller out there uses a relay, MOSFET, SCR, thyristor or ssr. How many have a manual disconnect ?

If the main panel is close to the brew space, then this would be marginally acceptable, but you would have to operate with the panel door open. You don't want to have to fumble around if you need to turn something off quickly. All of my designs have either a contactor or manually operated switch that will cause all voltage to be mechanically (air gap) isolated from the control panel outputs. I believe all of PJ's, and the Electric Brewery designs do as well.

You are an EE, but do you have any experience with safety requirements for industrial equipment?

Brew on

 

[brewman !]

Most industrial stuff has a shutoff (disconnect) connected to the panel door. You open the door and everything inside is dead.

Most everything that controls something dangerous has an estop. How it is implemented varies. Complete deenergization is rare. Usually drivers are shut down.

The failure rate on quality SSRs is low. In a brewery application the operator will see the process temp overshoot. A process alarm will probably sound. Worst case is a boil over. Un plugging and or turning off a breaker is not asking too much in a rare instance.

Companies weigh cost, frequency, potential damage, etc. People used to build big manual panels with switches and lights. Now everything is a PLC with some sort of computer UI, because it is cheaper, more intelligent, more flexible, etc. PIDs are only usable by a human standing in front of them. Nobody wants that anymore.

Here is the Blichman Tower of Power.
https://www.blichmannengineering.com/tower-of-power-temp-power-controller.html

I guarantee it has an SSR in it. Where is its manual disconnect ? .

 

[augiedoggy]

Turn off the breaker in the panel.

Every brew controller out there uses a relay, MOSFET, SCR, thyristor or ssr. How many have a manual disconnect ?

all mine have both a contactor or dual pole relay in front of the ssr so both poles are off and to eliminate the leaking voltage to my elements when off.. and an estop... so not every controller. Not even close if you count all the panels based off Kals design..

The failure rate on the cheap white generic ssrs many are using for brewing and that come with many pids is high.. I know its easily avoidable by spending an extra dollar or 2 but many people dont. Plus your not taking into consideration the fact that many of these panels are homemade and made by people that may not know the correct way to give the ssr enough cooling capacity and such, these are also folks who are drinking in many cases while using this equipment and unplugging and switching things around mid brew. Its best just to make the panel so all power is off to the element when its off not just one leg to make the circuit incomplete.

Even the printing equipment I service that uses ssrs for heater also utilze thermal cutouts as a backup safety device to kill the power in the event of a thermister or ssr failure and it does happen.

 

[mongoose33]

Plus your not taking into consideration the fact that many of these panels are homemade and made by people that may not know the correct way to give the ssr enough cooling capacity and such, these are also folks who are drinking in many cases while using this equipment and unplugging and switching things around mid brew. Its best just to make the panel so all power is off to the element when its off not just one leg to make the circuit incomplete.

I teach some EE students (really--though I'm not an EE myself). One of the things I teach about is single point-of-failure designs, and why I like avoiding such designs if possible, by building in redundancy or doing a design that has great robustness in those points of failure. (BTW, I do this in the context of sustainability and renewable energy).

For example, one reason I like superinsulation as a way to keep a home comfortable (note I didn't say heat that home), is that it works no matter what, and requires no outside inputs, switches, electricity, or manual inputs.

Failsafe. I like failsafe. A lot. And if you have a system that is being operated by people who are drinking, as many such systems are, then there is only one design consideration that, IMO, is paramount: make it as idiot-proof as you can.

I built an Auber panel last summer; one reason I really like it is the simplicity with which I can disengage it. I can flip a switch to turn off the heating element, or I can turn the key.

I don't want to depend on my ability, when panicky because something bad is happening, to do the right thing. I drink very little while brewing, usually after the boil is done, but even so--building a system that can be screwed up means there's high probability that it WILL be screwed up.

Bravo to @augiedoggy and @doug293cz for championing designs that are robust.

 

[augiedoggy]

^^ I had a hose come off of a barbed fitting to my plate chiller on our 3 bbl system last week and spew hot wort all over... let me tell you the panic and confusion not to mention the burnt hand the ensued... and I wasnt drinking so... yeah I agree.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

My panel is entirely software driven, that said I also have a contactor wired to an e-stop (literally the only button on the panel) to drop power to the thing if I slam it. (along with float switches to protect my elements), I'd say this all added maybe 10 bucks in parts to the build.

 

[doug293cz]

Most industrial stuff has a shutoff (disconnect) connected to the panel door. You open the door and everything inside is dead.

Most everything that controls something dangerous has an estop. How it is implemented varies. Complete deenergization is rare. Usually drivers are shut down.

The failure rate on quality SSRs is low. In a brewery application the operator will see the process temp overshoot. A process alarm will probably sound. Worst case is a boil over. Un plugging and or turning off a breaker is not asking too much in a rare instance.

Companies weigh cost, frequency, potential damage, etc. People used to build big manual panels with switches and lights. Now everything is a PLC with some sort of computer UI, because it is cheaper, more intelligent, more flexible, etc. PIDs are only usable by a human standing in front of them. Nobody wants that anymore.

Here is the Blichman Tower of Power.
https://www.blichmannengineering.com/tower-of-power-temp-power-controller.html

I guarantee it has an SSR in it. Where is its manual disconnect ? .

Yes, almost all control panels use an SSR, SSVR, triac, or similar to modulate the power to the element(s), as mechanical switches/relays are not good for high frequency switching. But, an SSR, etc. is not a positive disconnect. They have off state leakage, and are normally only used to switch one of the hots, which leaves 120V on the element outlet when the SSR is off.

How do you implement an E-stop with just the component list you posted earlier? Seems you need a contactor to do that.

The Blichmann controller has an on/off switch on the front. I would hope that switch drives a contactor, as the switch itself certainly can't handle 30, or more amps.

Brew on

 

[brewman !]

There is no contactor in the Tower controller. And it is UL.

 

[doug293cz]

There is no contactor in the Tower controller. And it is UL.

Do you have a schematic, or photos of the inside?

Brew on

 

[brewman !]

There is no contactor in your stove either. Nor an estop.

Nobody is arguing about the need for an estop.

 

[brewman !]

Care to show me the contactor in the Mash and Boil ?

 

[augiedoggy]

im fairly certain the mash and boil is Not UL, runs on a regular 120v gfci outlet with only one hot pole to switch on and off and not for nothing its built about as cheaply as possible, Enverythings enclosed, theres no element cords for the user to be uplugging or moving around.. Not sure if your missing the point intentionally or what here.

 

[brewman !]

im fairly certain the mash and boil is Not UL, runs on a regular 120v gfci outlet with only one hot pole to switch on and off and not for nothing its built about as cheaply as possible, Enverythings enclosed, theres no element cords for the user to be uplugging or moving around.. Not sure if your missing the point intentionally or what here.

Do you turn the breakers off in your house before you plug in the toaster ? Because if you don't turn off the breaker, the toaster outlet is live at 120VAC. You could electrocute yourself.

Does your toaster have a manual disconnect ? Other than the plug ?

 

[doug293cz]

.

...
Does your toaster have a manual disconnect ? Other than the plug ?

Most toasters have a set of contacts that open and air gap the hot line when the toaster is off. If you turn the toaster on, and then plug it in, you could get some arcing, as you could if you unplugged the toaster while it is on.

It's the ability to provide air gap isolation for the hot lines, and a way to control it manually from the panel that is important. Microcomputer software reliability is not considered adequate for protecting against risk to life. Situation is likely different for PLC's, as these are designed to be much more reliable than a Windows or Linux based system. They are also hella more expensive than an RPI, so not often used by homebrewers who are notoriously thrifty when it comes to spending their own money. Even with PLC control of SSR's you should also have a contactor that can protect against SSR failure.

Brew on

 

[brewman !]

.

Most toasters have a set of contacts that open and air gap the hot line when the toaster is off. If you turn the toaster on, and then plug it in, you could get some arcing, as you could if you unplugged the toaster while it is on.

It's the ability to provide air gap isolation for the hot lines, and a way to control it manually from the panel that is important. Microcomputer software reliability is not considered adequate for protecting against risk to life. Situation is likely different for PLC's, as these are designed to be much more reliable than a Windows or Linux based system. They are also hella more expensive than an RPI, so not often used by homebrewers who are notoriously thrifty when it comes to spending their own money. Even with PLC control of SSR's you should also have a contactor that can protect against SSR failure.

Brew on

And where did you obtain all this "expertise"?

 

[bleme]

And where did you obtain all this "expertise"?

I can't speak for Doug, but I took apart my first toaster when I was 4 years old.
Although, it was quite a few years later before I learned how to put it back together....

Btw, I was 3 when I noticed that tweezers were the EXACT same shape as a wall outlet. Incidentally, that is my first memory. I've always wondered if the shock jump-started my memory or wiped out whatever there was from before...

 

[doug293cz]

And where did you obtain all this "expertise"?

I have a PhD level education (but no dissertation) in engineering, and spent 36 years in the electronics industry. I retired as a Senior Engineer from a Fortune 100 company. At the end of my career, I was the company's foremost expert in physical design rules for laminate substrates for integrated circuit packages. During my career I also dealt with process equipment, and learned a great deal from the safety inspectors who would have to approve new equipment. I have always been adept at learning new things as necessary during my career, and have continued that with control panel design since my retirement.

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

I have a PhD level education (but no dissertation) in engineering, and spent 36 years in the electronics industry. I retired as a Senior Engineer from a Fortune 100 company. At the end of my career, I was the company's foremost expert in physical design rules for laminate substrates for integrated circuit packages. During my career I also dealt with process equipment, and learned a great deal from the safety inspectors who would have to approve new equipment. I have always been adept at learning new things as necessary during my career, and have continued that with control panel design since my retirement.

Brew on

That's a pretty good answer.

 

[BrunDog]

I would like to echo @doug293cz ‘s comments. In this hobby where we are mixing liquids and significant voltages and current delivery, it is imperative to do it with as much safety as possible. You don’t need to wear a seatbelt to drive a car, but it certainly adds a level of safety. Does it add cost and complexity - yes, but the benefits outweigh the risks.

Adding a pathway to eliminate a dangerous situation is imperative. If the switch is not within the immediate reach of the user, it doesn’t exist. A breaker or another remote switch doesn’t count. Keep in mind, as stated above, that 240 VAC circuits should have an ability to disconnect both legs. Also, SSRs leak and fail regularly, and can never be relied upon. The comments above indicate a lack of realization of possible failures. Yes, an element which is stuck on while being immersed has some inherent safety buffering, but what if the vessel is empty? Search dry-fire in this forum and find numerous examples. I have personally experienced an SSR which failed “partially” on and still caused an element to glow. That SSR was appropriately mounted to an oversized legitimate heat-sink, demonstrating their failure is not strictly associated with overheating.

@bremman ! I think is a little irresponsible of you to inform the forum you are an EE, yet post that safety standards can be ignored. People read information on these forums and have to sort out what’s acceptably safe. As a topic expert, presenting reasons why safety equipment need not be used is not in the best interest of the users who follow your advice.

 

[brewman !]

Good work guys ! What would we ever do without you ?