Want to switch to electric...

[applescrap]

So another question came to mind as I'm thinking about this.

When brewing with propane, I can adjust the needle valve on the burner to keep the flame to the minimum necessary to keep the boil rolling.

With an electric element, you don't have this ability do you? There's no way to control it without the control panel and all the fancy stuff, or is there?

Much more precise imo. I can stop a boil over on the drop of the knob. It will literally go from no boil to boil to rolling boil etc...almost instantly with knob turn and is a perk of e brewing. That avantco will do the same and isnt the worst idea.

I was in same boat as you. My aluminium isnt induction so no go. Grainfather isnt a bad idea, and a 220 gf would be sweet. The ol 50 dollars in parts. Look the gfci would be a steal at 50 alone and they really are 75 at best i think. Then conduit, clips, wire, plugs are stupid expensive. These are pricey toys. They arent much but i dont think 50 has it. Cool he will do it for you. That kit auggie sent is cheap and good, see if a buddy will build it. I went hotrod and 220. Got cheap 250 dollar pid and heatstick. Gf, robobrew seem like ok options especially if you arent worried about time. I want to brew quickly and 5500 was a must. If you want cheap it can be done but you have to build it.

 

[mongoose33]

Boil all your water, not just strike water? Then cool it all to mash temp, pump the strike volume to MT, leave the rest in the HLT, and you're ready to go. I don't mess with LoDO, but that's my best guess.

Yeah, that's a possibility. I'm using mostly RO water and I need to add salts and such to get it to where it needs to be. Not sure about doing that where the remainder is for the HERMS.

These things are always difficult to describe properly so that those reading it have an accurate indicator of what I've got. I have a 10-gallon kettle w/ a coil I can purpose to a HERMS coil. But I'm typically using about 8.25 gallons of water for strike; that's a little more than most might be using for a 5-gallon batch, but I'm accounting for losses in the mash tun, boil kettle, pump and hoses. I've upped the grain bill to account for that.

So I essentially have to completely fill that HLT/HERMS kettle to get enough to use in the mash, and have to almost completely refill it anyway. I'm still diddling with this to make it all work; I'm thinking I can redo that coil to make it not as tall in the kettle; it's all kind of wound up. A friend gave me the kettle and coil, so I have nothing in it, but if I can make it serve (and I should be able to do that), it'll save me at least $200 and perhaps more.

I am ready to spend some money to do much of this, but I'd rather repurpose what I have than do that--or more properly, money saved can be dedicated to something else.

 

[augiedoggy]

Here's something I don't get about that--and it's important to bear in mind I'm doing LODO techniques so some of this is predetermined by that.

For LODO purposes, I'm pre-boiling the strike water to drive off O2. Boiling for 5 minutes does that. Then, I need to cool that strike water to strike temp. Then that water is transferred to the mash tun, underletting the grain.

I could, I suppose, do that in the HLT, but what I don't understand is that once I transfer that water to the mash tun, I have to refill that HLT and then start it heating again--meanwhile, my mash tun has no HERMS recirculation to control mash temp. How do people manage that? It seems impossible to use a HLT for both.

FWIW, I can heat the strike water in the BK. That's why I don't necessarily think I need a lot of power to keep the HERMS kettle hot. I actually have a kettle I can dedicate to that.

well I ditched my herms for Rims (which I believe is superior if built right) long ago and dont have to worry about this but yeah your point is valid... LODO is a fairly recent trend in the homebrewing market... 2 years ago most people used copper in there chillers.. My beer doesnt sit around long enough for the lodo to be justified in my mind so I havent yet bothered trying it but its been something Ive read up on recently.

I would suggest you at least give a rims a good long look, Youy can go with super ULWD optrions such as the 20" long 240v elements at 120v or a cartridge heater like I use to make the watt density so low it negates any of the possible problems that some rims setups had become famous for like scorching... The rims gives you more flexibility, speed and control IMO while wasting less water and time.

 

[mongoose33]

well I ditched my herms for Rims (which I believe is superior if built right) long ago and dont have to worry about this but yeah your point is valid... LODO is a fairly recent trend in the homebrewing market... 2 years ago most people used copper in there chillers.. My beer doesnt sit around long enough for the lodo to be justified in my mind so I havent yet bothered trying it but its been something Ive read up on recently.

I would suggest you at least give a rims a good long look, Youy can go with super ULWD optrions such as the 20" long 240v elements at 120v or a cartridge heater like I use to make the watt density so low it negates any of the possible problems that some rims setups had become famous for like scorching... The rims gives you more flexibility, speed and control IMO while wasting less water and time.

I'm willing to look at this--my concern always was scorching, but if those RIMS systems can be made with the low wattage density, then maybe not an issue. It would make for a more compact brew area if I don't need a HLT. Right now, I'm pre-boiling the water in my boil kettle then transferring from that to the mash tun using a pump. Works pretty well.

Do you have a source for the parts you're using? I'm pretty inventive usually, but for something like this, I don't need to reinvent the wheel. I see that Brewhardware has this: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims18_cam.htm but it appears that the item doesn't include an element. What I'd like is something that's pretty plug-and-play so I'm not trying to match parts.

BTW, I'm trying to marry this to a BK that uses something like BrunDog's steam condenser approach so I don't have to have a vent in my garage. Something like a RIMS would produce less steam which, in the winter, is NG in my insulated garage.

 

[IslandLizard]

The ol 50 dollars in parts. Look the gfci would be a steal at 50 alone and they really are 75 at best i think.

Yeah, $50, lol. That may not be even close. Last time I checked, 2 years ago, a 240V GFCI panel breaker ran $190. That's why most people buy a $75 Spa Panel that already includes a GFCI, instead. You do need to run 3 wires with ground to it from the main panel, AFAIK.

A 120V GFCI can be very cheaply implemented with GFCI outlets.

 

[IslandLizard]

but if those RIMS systems can be made with the low wattage density,

In those rims tubes, most brewers run a 240V low watt density (foldover) element on 120V. That quarters the already low watt density (P=V*V/R).

There is another, IMO much better solution that doesn't heat the recirculating wort directly with an element, but indirectly.
One of my brewer friends uses a small eHERMS. Wort is recirculated through a small SS coil (made of 4-6' of 3/8" or 1/2" tubing) placed in a small 1 or 1.5 gallon pot filled with water. The water in that pot is heated with an ordinary 120V water heater element. Since the volume is small, it's quickly heated, even all the way up to boiling, and very responsive. A PID controls the heating element through a temperature sensor on the output of the coil.
There's no way you'd ever scorch your wort with that system, similar to a HERMS, but without the huge ballast of the HLT.

 

[augiedoggy]

If the watt density is low enough it makes no difference whether its direct or indirect heating other than indirect is less efficient and has the time lag associated with directly heating another liquid as a medium to heat yet another liquid.... Why not just directly heat the wort with a super ulwd element? I can tell you theres no denaturing of any enzymes with my rims since im getting 91% efficiency on average and can step mash 2 degrees per minute rise. The heat is so gently I get zero buildup of any kind on the element after use. unlike the next step where I directly heat my wort to a boil in the boil kettle..

A good solution is a long cartridge heater, brunos quadzilla heater with two offset tees like bobbys rims, or another good heater choice is a long 240v element at 120v like this one (1500w with this setup or slightly more if you use the 208v element.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fold-Back-Heating-Element-Electric-Water-240-Volt-6000-Watt-Stainless-Steel-NEW/222950449382?_trkparms=aid=555018&algo=PL.SIM&ao=1&asc=52935&meid=9bda718caf9c4dcfa2696e9557a80dec&pid=100010&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=222388483544&itm=222950449382&_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109

 

[IslandLizard]

step mash 2 degrees per minute rise

What size is your system? The guy who runs his eHERMS has a 15 gallon system (20 gallon kettles). From what I remember, it takes 10' or less to raise the 15 gallon mash 10F. That would be at least 1°F per minute. I'll check the exact rate next time. We're overdue for our next brew(s).

I understand indirect heating is less efficient, there are heating/transfer losses, but it prevents potential localized overheating using direct heating sources.

A good solution is a long cartridge heater

I looked at those, but they're skinny (1/2"), so heat density must be quite a bit higher.

 

[augiedoggy]

What size is your system? The guy who runs his eHERMS has a 15 gallon system (20 gallon kettles). From what I remember, it takes 10' or less to raise the 15 gallon mash 10F. That would be at least 1°F per minute. I'll check the exact rate next time. We're overdue for our next brew(s).

I understand indirect heating is less efficient, there are heating/transfer losses, but it prevents potential localized overheating using direct heating sources.

I looked at those, but they're skinny (1/2"), so heat density must be quite a bit higher.

I brew 11 gallons at a time, the thing is, its instant and consistent and doesnt require multiple large elements or pumps to be running and I can heat my sparge water independently. I also use an 1800w rims.
The diameter of my 36" long element is 5/8" and the density is quite low. and there is no localized heating because of the fact that the rims is over 36" long and theres a 5/8" element in a 1" tube... the flow rate is less than 2gpm so the wort enters at one end and exits at another with plenty of time to gently heat all of it along the way. Once temp is fully reached my rims pid never goes above 20% to maintain temps. Thats what I was getting at by "properly designed" rims tube in my original comment..

I have no issues running 3 24v pumps a 5500w element ,4500w HLT and 1800w rims all off a 30a service... I also run my rims at the same time as my sparge water is heating in my HLT. there no waiting for retopping off the hlt and heating the water for the herms and and the rims is super easy to clean.

cartridge heaters come in multiple lengths and thicknesses up to 1" thick and Ive seen them as long as 4ft..

 

[rudylyon57]

Interesting. I'll have to look this Avancto burner up and investigate.

Anyone notice a huge difference in their electric bill when they use these elements? I found a website that helps you calculate what it will do to your electric bill and if I did the math right, a 5500w heating element should only add a bit less than $2 per brew day.

Typical electric brew day consumes 11 kwh for 5 gallon batch using resistive elements. This includes pump energy, 4400W RIMS (1100W on 120 while circulating), 4400W HLT and 5500W BK elements. Where I live that works out to $1.20 or $0.24/gal for brewing energy-not bad.

 

[BeagleBrewing]

For PID I use an Arduino Mega (~$15) and a couple $5 SSRs. Add a $7 display, a $2 rotary encoder and you have something that will run multiple simultaneous PIDs for much less $. There is a catch of course. You have to develop your own software as I am unaware of any canned software for this setup. For me that was just part of the fun. Mine is a little more complex but building the system is just part of the fun. My goal was to brew good beer without lifting anything heavier than the grain. At the time I built my all electric system I had never heard of BIAB. Given the lifting constraint I may have ended up in the same place. Who knows?

There are many great ideas here and it just goes to show there's many ways to end up with good beer. I do agree fermentation control is a better place to spend your money. Mine is a box made from 2" foam board with two thermoelectric coolers controlled by another Arduino. Given the space a craigslist chest freezer controlled with an Arduino would have been a better choice. A $3 Arduino Nano or Pro Mini with a SSR will easily control a fermenter.

I'm not suggesting everyone learn to program an Arduino to make beer. I'm just saying there are many ways to "go big" within a budget.

Interesting reading. Keep it going!

John

 

[augiedoggy]

For PID I use an Arduino Mega (~$15) and a couple $5 SSRs. Add a $7 display, a $2 rotary encoder and you have something that will run multiple simultaneous PIDs for much less $. There is a catch of course. You have to develop your own software as I am unaware of any canned software for this setup. For me that was just part of the fun. Mine is a little more complex but building the system is just part of the fun. My goal was to brew good beer without lifting anything heavier than the grain. At the time I built my all electric system I had never heard of BIAB. Given the lifting constraint I may have ended up in the same place. Who knows?

There are many great ideas here and it just goes to show there's many ways to end up with good beer. I do agree fermentation control is a better place to spend your money. Mine is a box made from 2" foam board with two thermoelectric coolers controlled by another Arduino. Given the space a craigslist chest freezer controlled with an Arduino would have been a better choice. A $3 Arduino Nano or Pro Mini with a SSR will easily control a fermenter.

I'm not suggesting everyone learn to program an Arduino to make beer. I'm just saying there are many ways to "go big" within a budget.

Interesting reading. Keep it going!

John

Wouldnt Brucontrol work? I use that with my mega based control panel builds and it allows a person to write simple scripts to automate just about anything if wanted although I have only used them to fermentation profiles. it uses a regular windows pc to interface with it.

I agree its cheaper and more versatile than separate pids and analog switches but its not for everyone..

 

[BeagleBrewing]

A quick glance at Brucontrol sounds like a reasonable "middle ground" between roll your own programming and buying purpose build commercial devices. I had not heard of Brucontrol so thanks for the suggestion. I'm always interested in other approaches.

As a retired process control engineer I recognize my approach is likely to be a bit different than most. For me building and tinkering with my brew rig is half the fun. What could be better than a toy that makes decent beer!

Cheers.

 

[AkTom]

What could be better than a toy that makes decent beer!

Cheers.[/QUOTE]
I like it.

 

[augiedoggy]

As a retired process control engineer I recognize my approach is likely to be a bit different than most. For me building and tinkering with my brew rig is half the fun. What could be better than a toy that makes decent beer!

Cheers.

your not alone

 

[brewbama]

I'm willing to look at this--my concern always was scorching, but if those RIMS systems can be made with the low wattage density, then maybe not an issue. It would make for a more compact brew area if I don't need a HLT. Right now, I'm pre-boiling the water in my boil kettle then transferring from that to the mash tun using a pump. Works pretty well.

Do you have a source for the parts you're using? I'm pretty inventive usually, but for something like this, I don't need to reinvent the wheel. I see that Brewhardware has this: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims18_cam.htm but it appears that the item doesn't include an element. What I'd like is something that's pretty plug-and-play so I'm not trying to match parts.

BTW, I'm trying to marry this to a BK that uses something like BrunDog's steam condenser approach so I don't have to have a vent in my garage. Something like a RIMS would produce less steam which, in the winter, is NG in my insulated garage.

I have a HLT/BK and a MLT that I use a pump like you do. To that, I added the 12” Brewing Hardware RIMS tube with an Inkbird controller and a 1650w ULWD element. The element attaches with a 1.5” tri clamp. (You can get the elements cheaper: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078M7SD3B/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20.) It works great IMO.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element1650_tc.htm

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims12_cam.htm

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tempcontrol_ipb16.htm

 

[mongoose33]

I have a HLT/BK and a MLT that I use a pump like you do. To that, I added the 12” Brewing Hardware RIMS tube with an Inkbird controller and a 1650w ULWD element. The element attaches with a 1.5” tri clamp. (You can get the elements cheaper: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078M7SD3B/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20.) It works great IMO.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element1650_tc.htm

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims12_cam.htm

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tempcontrol_ipb16.htm

I had an email exchange with Bobby at BHW today, and I'm ready to do the RIMS thing. Problem is, their kit is out of stock, apparently because the element is out of stock.

I'm going to look closely at this; if I can get all this with the Amazon element, I'll pull the trigger on it. It's no longer a question of whether I'll do it; I'm going to. It's a question of where can I get the "stuff."

I'll buy as much as I can from Bobby, but I really want this to be operational by the end of August; once September hits, work will dominate my life.

Thank you for all the info!

 

[mongoose33]

I have a HLT/BK and a MLT that I use a pump like you do. To that, I added the 12” Brewing Hardware RIMS tube with an Inkbird controller and a 1650w ULWD element. The element attaches with a 1.5” tri clamp. (You can get the elements cheaper: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078M7SD3B/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20.) It works great IMO.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element1650_tc.htm

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims12_cam.htm

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tempcontrol_ipb16.htm

Unfortunately, the RIMS/cam tube is out of stock as well.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Building a proper electric setup is going to cost you a far amount of cash. I'd start budgeting for at least triple whatever you think your gonna spend and then add 50% lol. It's still worth it in the end. Brewing in my basement is priceless. Cheers

 

[brewbama]

Unfortunately, the RIMS/cam tube is out of stock as well.

That sux. Any ETA from Bobby?

 

[Blazinlow86]

"Buy once; cry once" only works if you actually have that money. OP has already stated that isn't an option, but I get that some people will never understand the limits of a real budget.

It's not so much a matter of understand the limits of a real budget. Getting the proper stuff to make your system work correctly is required. No point spending the limited money you have on a half-assed setup that's not gonna work correctly or as expected just to have to replace it all again. Electric is expensive no matter what. Fortunately for people on a tight budget there's propane which is much much cheaper and still works great. Id say stick with burners until the budget allows. In the big picture the free installation of the 240 is not really a large enough savings to switch to electric. Id say when I switched over I initially spent about 2000.00 and had I not done the labour myself would have spent 50.00 to have someone connect the 240. Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

That sux. Any ETA from Bobby?

No, unfortunately. He also has something on his website about vacation in early August, so I suspect it's a couple weeks at the earliest. I'm also going to do the steam condenser he's got coming, but that's supposed to be in relatively soon.

I'm putting an element in my 10-gallon Spike kettle; got that ordered today.

I also ordered the element you showed on Amazon; all I need now is the RIMS tube as you spec'd above.

BTW: Do you have a pic that shows how you set yours up? And what are you using to control the BK element?

 

[augiedoggy]

It's not so much a matter of understand the limits of a real budget. Getting the proper stuff to make your system work correctly is required. No point spending the limited money you have on a half-assed setup that's not gonna work correctly or as expected just to have to replace it all again. Electric is expensive no matter what. Fortunately for people on a tight budget there's propane which is much much cheaper and still works great. Id say stick with burners until the budget allows. In the big picture the free installation of the 240 is not really a large enough savings to switch to electric. Id say when I switched over I initially spent about 2000.00 and had I not done the labour myself would have spent 50.00 to have someone connect the 240. Cheers

It does not need to be expensive. I ran my own 240 line for $125 including the cost of the wire and spa panel.
The panel in my avatar pic cost me less than $300 to build..It controlled 3 elements and 3 dc pumps and made great beer for years until I got the itch for something else because the equipment is a hobby in itself for me.. My rims cost about $150 all together with the flow switch and flowmeter... even the brucontrol panel I have now was fairly inexpensive to build... There are cheaper options that while not as blingy, will work great to make beer.

The $40 still dragon controller is still great, easy to build and allows for better control for gas so why not?

 

[augiedoggy]

No, unfortunately. He also has something on his website about vacation in early August, so I suspect it's a couple weeks at the earliest. I'm also going to do the steam condenser he's got coming, but that's supposed to be in relatively soon.

I'm putting an element in my 10-gallon Spike kettle; got that ordered today.

I also ordered the element you showed on Amazon; all I need now is the RIMS tube as you spec'd above.

BTW: Do you have a pic that shows how you set yours up? And what are you using to control the BK element?

there are rims tubes available on ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5-Tri-Clamp-RIMS-Tube-Kit-SS304-with-Clamps-and-Seals/173446882859?hash=item28623d662b:g:yX4AAOSwWUtbY0J2&_sacat=0&_nkw=rims+tube&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1313.TR2.TRC0.A0.H0.Xrims+tube.TRS0.TSS0

heres the controller many use..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/INKBIRD-Wi...=inkbird+pid&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0|0

 

[mongoose33]

there are rims tubes available on ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5-Tri-Clamp-RIMS-Tube-Kit-SS304-with-Clamps-and-Seals/173446882859?hash=item28623d662b:g:yX4AAOSwWUtbY0J2&_sacat=0&_nkw=rims+tube&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1313.TR2.TRC0.A0.H0.Xrims+tube.TRS0.TSS0

heres the controller many use..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/INKBIRD-Wired-PID-Temperature-controller-IPB16-Precise-Thermostat-32-230-F-110V/323291761366?hash=item4b45b0cad6:g:IHMAAOSw0gFas2Zi&_sacat=0&_nkw=inkbird+pid&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0|0

I may be willing to go w/ a Tri-Clover one, which Brewhardware has in stock. I've got the element coming from Amazon (TriClover). What do I want as an end for the sensor? Thermowell?

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims12_tc.htm

I'd use this controller:

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tempcontrol_ipb16.htm

 

[Blazinlow86]

It does not need to be expensive. I ran my own 240 line for $125 including the cost of the wire and spa panel.
The panel in my avatar pic cost me less than $300 to build..It controlled 3 elements and 3 dc pumps and made great beer for years until I got the itch for something else because the equipment is a hobby in itself for me.. My rims cost about $150 all together with the flow switch and flowmeter... even the brucontrol panel I have now was fairly inexpensive to build... There are cheaper options that while not as blingy, will work great to make beer.

The $40 still dragon controller is still great, easy to build and allows for better control for gas so why not?

Im under the impression that the original posters budget is tighter than your system would allow based on some of the comments and questions. Obviously hes gonna need pumps, elements, probes, fittings, cables and all that stuff on top of the control panel and spa panel. My point was more so if the only reason he wanted to go electric was because he could have the labour of installing the 240 outlet free it's not really much a savings in the big picture. Cheers

 

[augiedoggy]

Im under the impression that the original posters budget is tighter than your system would allow based on some of the comments and questions. Obviously hes gonna need pumps, elements, probes, fittings, cables and all that stuff on top of the control panel and spa panel. My point was more so if the only reason he wanted to go electric was because he could have the labour of installing the 240 outlet free it's not really much a savings in the big picture. Cheers

I think, If he bought a $40 stilldragon control box and installed one of these https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brewing-Be...112498361?epid=2264335736&hash=item4b3b0174b9
in a kettle (no TC fitting to pay for) along with one of these, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 as a pump, He could in fact be on his way to a cheaper easier way to brew indoors. The whole setup is like $150-175 with cords and plug. Thew trick will be resisting the whole "while im at it" syndrome which gets most of us and causes the costs to go up.

 

[brewbama]

No, unfortunately. He also has something on his website about vacation in early August, so I suspect it's a couple weeks at the earliest. I'm also going to do the steam condenser he's got coming, but that's supposed to be in relatively soon.

I'm putting an element in my 10-gallon Spike kettle; got that ordered today.

I also ordered the element you showed on Amazon; all I need now is the RIMS tube as you spec'd above.

BTW: Do you have a pic that shows how you set yours up? And what are you using to control the BK element?

Edit: Here’s my two ‘pot’ setup. In this photo I have transferred my strike liquor to my MLT underletting the grain. I moved my hoses to recirculate and I am at a step in my Hochkurz mash. After I mash out, I’ll move the top return hose to the whirlpool inlet on the HLT/BK and begin the boil.

View attachment 582106

 

[Blazinlow86]

I think, If he bought a $40 stilldragon control box and installed one of these https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brewing-Be...112498361?epid=2264335736&hash=item4b3b0174b9
in a kettle (no TC fitting to pay for) along with one of these, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 as a pump, He could in fact be on his way to a cheaper easier way to brew indoors. The whole setup is like $150-175 with cords and plug. Thew trick will be resisting the whole "while im at it" syndrome which gets most of us and causes the costs to go up.

he's using a 3 vessel setup and wanted to stick with it so I'm imagining he's gonna need 2 of each of what you linked. I was also assuming he would want a Herms/rims setup but of course it's not required. I guess the real question is how much money does he have to spend on this. But again my main point was if the only reason he wanted to switch over was his friends offer to do the labour of the outlet free it's not a big enough savings to rush into it on too tight a budget and make compromises to have it now. Cheers

 

[ba-brewer]

I am a 5gal brewer and I made the switch to electric with two 120V 1500W hotrods and a router speed controller. I had two 120V circuits close enough together I did not need to go to 220. I was able to brew just like I did with propane.

I have upgraded to a ezboil RIMS setup but I still use the hotrods and run from 120V in a 3 vessel setup. Start mash water with the RIMS and 1 hotrod. Move the hotrod to the HLT and heat sparge water while recirculating the mash. Move the hotrod to the boil kettle along with the second one when it is time to boil.