Vomit Smell

[Black_Mountain_Brewer]

After searching, I have been unable to find an answer to what causes a vomit smell in beer. I have had 4 AG batches now end up with this vomit smell. They are all darker beers. I am pretty sure 2 of them may have been underpitched, but the other two I am clueless as to what could have happened. My lighter colored beers and IPAs all turn out just fine. I have tried attacking one aspect at a time and am coming up empty. I have looked at PH, pitching rates, and temperatures. Has anyone had the vomit smell problem and isolated the cause?

 

[wonderbread23]

It's likely butyric acid which can be quite unpleasent. Typical causes are infection.

 

[Beernik]

The only thing I have come across that is vomit like is ropy flavors and smell from pedio bacteria in lambics.

 

[jro238]

Maybe you got really drunk when brewing these batches and don't remember puking in the mash?

I've never had a vomit smell in a beer though... Have you brewed any dark beers that turned out OK? Hearing that something only happens in dark beers makes me think pH but you say that you have already ruled that out.

If you are getting your grains from a small store, could they be old? This is a stretch since the lighter beers are OK but is all I can think of right now.

 

[Cyclman]

You could mash your dark grains separately, then combine them in the BK. If so, then it could be a pH problem.

 

[TallDan]

Do others think your beer smells like vomit? Have you by chance overindulged on dark beers in the recent past?

I ask because when I was younger and in college, I drank WAY too much one night and was puking a lot from it. For a year or two, I couldn't drink what I had that night because, to me, it smelled like vomit. Of course, it didn't REALLY smell like vomit, it was just that I had a mental association between that type of alcohol and vomit. It took me a few years to get over.

 

[Picbuddy]

What TallDan says could be viable. When my Mom was a kid she drank artificially flavored grape soda and then threw up on the school bus on a windy mountain trip. Even though that was over 50 years ago she will still vomit at the smell of artificial grape flavor like bubble gum and sodas.

Do others think your beer smells like vomit? Have you by chance overindulged on dark beers in the recent past?

I ask because when I was younger and in college, I drank WAY too much one night and was puking a lot from it. For a year or two, I couldn't drink what I had that night because, to me, it smelled like vomit. Of course, it didn't REALLY smell like vomit, it was just that I had a mental association between that type of alcohol and vomit. It took me a few years to get over.

 

[Black_Mountain_Brewer]

I was thinking infection originally. Could I get infection in only dark beers and not in IPAs? I am extremely anal in cleaning, but maybe I am missing a step.

My water is higher PH. I have added 5.2 to all of my recent batches including the latest vomit smelling strong ale. I am not sure of the age of the grain, but my lighter beers have all been fine. I can research this more as it could definitely be an option.

My wife actually pinpointed the smell as vomit. Two of my buddies agreed before this that something was wrong, but couldn't pinpoint it. I have only gotten sick on tequila. I can't say the word without thinking about puking. I have never had a bad experience with beer, although I do know exactly what you are talking about.

Here are the beers that had this odor:
Scottish Export
Irish Red
Dubbel
Strong Ale

Could it be an oxygen problem? All of these beers were done prior to my oxygenation system.

 

[Black_Mountain_Brewer]

Why would only my darker beers be susceptible to infection. None of my light colored beers have had any flavor issues. Looks like I will be dumping two more vomit beers.


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[Beernik]

The only things I can think of that would affect dark beers and not light beers are tannins and mash pH. I don't know that either would make a vomit flavor.

 

[RD400F]

Same yeast strain every time?

 

[Black_Mountain_Brewer]

I'm fairly certain it's bacteria now. I need to isolate the source and see what is different between my light beers and dark beers. Guess I need to just tear everything apart and clean it like crazy. Between all the PBW and Star-San I use I'm not sure how I could get infected but I guess I shall see. Thanks for the help.


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[Black_Mountain_Brewer]

It has happened with 3 different yeast strains. Safale 05. Wyeast1056. Wyeast 1728. All with either starter or rehydrate. I use those same yeasts except 1728 in my light beers as well.


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[prohl84]

I made a vomit beer earlier this year. Bummer to dump a batch- mine had a massive pellicle on top of the potent vomit smell and taste (I had to for science). Bigger bummer I needed its cake and already had raw wort.

I laughed sardonically watching it swirl down the drain mixing with scorching hot tap water. "Die you monster!" I cried.

 

[Black_Mountain_Brewer]

All of mine that have done this take on a cloudy haze that is hard to describe. I can actually tell they are bad just from looking at them when I am checking SG. Watching beer go down the drain is a pain no man should have to endure.


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[cjgenever]

Infection

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[cjgenever]

I think your right to go through your equipment. What about your processes? How do you cool, siphon, take gravities, package, etc. The problem is most likely bacteria in the cool side processes. Perhaps it has nothing to do with the style, just coincidence.

Btw, the vomit flavor from bacteria has a ridiculously low taste threshold. It doesn't take much.

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[Black_Mountain_Brewer]

I cool using an immersion cooler that I place in with 15 minutes remaining. I most generally do not use a secondary so my only transfer is to my bottling bucket. I use the spout on the bottom of my bucket to check my SG. My airlock is always filled with star San. Nothing touches my wort that has not been doused with Star San.

I just started using an oxygen system. Could the canister have contaminated air?


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[Doctor_M]

I cool using an immersion cooler that I place in with 15 minutes remaining. I most generally do not use a secondary so my only transfer is to my bottling bucket. I use the spout on the bottom of my bucket to check my SG. My airlock is always filled with star San. Nothing touches my wort that has not been doused with Star San.

I just started using an oxygen system. Could the canister have contaminated air?


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It's a possibility. It also could be a ph problem as a low ph can cause tart off flavors (which I feel may be confused with vomit) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/low-mash-ph-results-sour-taste-128883/ as well as clarity problems. Also 5.2 stabilizer is snake oil, start reading up on water chemistry and get a ph meter if you decide this is the problem.

 

[pdxal]

Here are a couple of good resources to look up off flavors in your beer:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

http://www.f-o-a-m.org/beer_off_flavors.php

Vomit-like makes me think either DMS (which is more common in lighter beers) or oxidation. Unsure why either would show up more in darker beers, though, except by coincidence. Perhaps other flavors in the lighter beers are covering it? Have your processes been any different for dark vs. light beers?
Also, your problem is sounding to me a lot like infection.

 

[cjgenever]

have you always turned on the oxygen before immersing the stone?

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[Black_Mountain_Brewer]

I soak the stone in star San, turn it on and off in the solution, then move it to the wort and turn it on once it is submerged.


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[rmyurick]

I would maybe suspect "spout on the bottom of my bucket"? I've never used a bucket with a spout on it-how would you get that clean/sanitized?

I'm skeptical about DMS, because I think it would be more likely in a lighter beer. Plus, it's more of a "cooked corn" thing.

 

[mswebb]

Butyric Acid is common in beer but usually at at only 1.5mg/l. The flavour threshold is about 3 mg/l so it usually goes unnoticed.

"Butyric is an off-flavour that can occur in beer, it is generally perceived as baby sick, rancid or putrid flavour. Caused mainly by bacteria either during the wort production phase of brewing or in sugar syrups. It can also be produced by bacteria when beer become spoiled once it’s been packaged."

http://www.flavoractiv.com/products/butyric-beer-flavour-standards/

 

[fuelish]

I would maybe suspect "spout on the bottom of my bucket"? I've never used a bucket with a spout on it-how would you get that clean/sanitized?

I'm skeptical about DMS, because I think it would be more likely in a lighter beer. Plus, it's more of a "cooked corn" thing.

Only bucket spigots I've come across are easy to clean....inner gasket, outer gasket, spigot, handle (pops out of spigot) and nut...I disassemble and clean/sanitize mine everytime it gets used, before and after.A spigot that hasn't been disassembled would make a nice hiding place for unwanted stuff to get in your brew

 

[Hujo]

I definitely think you have an infection. It happened to a friend of mine, he traced it back to getting malt dust in his fermenter, since he grinded his malt in the same room.


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[IslandLizard]

I would maybe suspect "spout on the bottom of my bucket"? I've never used a bucket with a spout on it-how would you get that clean/sanitized?

I'm skeptical about DMS, because I think it would be more likely in a lighter beer. Plus, it's more of a "cooked corn" thing.

Most of the bottling bucket spigots are plastic and have 2 barrels that rotate within each other. That space in between is a bug trap, as is the rubber washer and the nut inside the bucket. The barrels can be pushed apart only after soaking in very hot water to soften the plastic.

To the OP, when do you notice the vomit smell? In the fermentor or after bottling? Have you tasted the vomit beer? Is it sour?

IPAs have lots of hops that can help keeping bug populations down and mask flavors and aromas. Have those 4 vomit batched been consecutive ones and were they your last 4 beers brewed? If so, infection is the most likely culprit. If they show up dispersed among good brews, something else can be going on, or maybe it's just a fluke they only show in those 4 darker beers.

My hunch is infection though. Often accompanied by a haze or a white pellicle on top of the beer.

Oh, forgot to say, as pointed out before, pH 5.2 is useless, it doesn't live up to its promise. But it won't cause vomit taste or infections, but if used in large quantities it could make your beer taste weird from excess sodium and phosphates, even sour, and actually throw your water/mash chemistry off.

 

[IslandLizard]

I definitely think you have an infection. It happened to a friend of mine, he traced it back to getting malt dust in his fermenter, since he grinded his malt in the same room.


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+1
Grain is covered in lacto.

 

[cjgenever]

most of my fermenters have been bottling buckets because that's what's been readily available for me locally in the past. they have been BSG brand or ail pails (if that's a brand?). they have all had spigot with two gaskets and a nut threaded on the inside. super easy to clean and sanitize.

I crush my grain10 feet from where I do my cooling fermentation and bottling. I usually crush right before the mash. I keep everything clean and covered, and sanitize well.

knock on wood... haven't dealt with an infection yet.

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[cjgenever]

Lacto is an effective souring agent. It really shouldn't create vomit flavors. mostly sour , with a possible touch of buttery.

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[cjgenever]

you're stone should be turned on before placing it into the wort. it should be left on until after being removed. I would go as rinsing it before shutting it off. by turning off the the oxygen in the wort, you are allowing wort (bacteria food) to get into the fine passages of the stone. aeration stones are notoriously difficult to clean. I suspect that you are harboring a bacterial infection in your stone.

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[beersk]

You could mash your dark grains separately, then combine them in the BK. If so, then it could be a pH problem.

I don't think pH issues cause flavor issues, but more like mouthfeel issues (astringency, tannins, etc.)

 

[cjgenever]

that's right, but the dark grains buffer against high pH (a contributing factor to astringency from tannin extraction)

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