Vanilla Cream Ale - Boil Length and LME Additions

[NewBrewer2025]

So I just got started into brewing, and I've started with extract kits. One of the first things I've learned about extract kits is the darker color they can give the brew. My first brew - a golden ale - hit the taste profile I wanted, but definitely came out a bit darker than I expected. And then I learned about the impact of LME on the color.

So, my next batch is going to be a Vanilla Cream Ale, and I was going to "experiment" a bit with some of the things I had learned. This is also going to be a 2.5 gallon batch, so I'll be doing a full volume boil.

1. I was going to add the LME in "batches." I was going to do about 33% at the beginning of the boil, and then the remainder with ~5 minutes left.
2. I was thinking about shortening the boil time to 30 minutes. This is going to be a low IBU beer, so the bittering isn't as much of an issue here. I obviously have adjusted the amount of hops I will use due to the impacts of both of these decisions.

Below is the recipe I have in Brewfather based on what I said above:

Does this make sense? Am I adding enough LME in at the beginning? Is that boil time of 30 minutes instead of 60 going to be fine?

Thanks for any feedback!

 

[RM-MN]

I rarely boil any wort more than 30 minutes. Maybe my beer tastes awful but I like how it turns out.

Boiling does 3 things. One is to boil off some of the liquid. This mostly applies to all grain where one might sparge a bit extra trying to get more of the sugars, then the excess water is boiled off to concentrate the sugars. With extract you can put in the right amount so you need not do this.

The second thing is to extract the bittering compounds from the hops. I've see articles that say that 90% of the bittering is done in the first 30 minutes so I just adjust the amount of hops to account for this.

The third is to boil off the DMS. Most of this should have been taken care of in the production of the extract.

 

[NewBrewer2025]

I rarely boil any wort more than 30 minutes. Maybe my beer tastes awful but I like how it turns out.

Boiling does 3 things. One is to boil off some of the liquid. This mostly applies to all grain where one might sparge a bit extra trying to get more of the sugars, then the excess water is boiled off to concentrate the sugars. With extract you can put in the right amount so you need not do this.

The second thing is to extract the bittering compounds from the hops. I've see articles that say that 90% of the bittering is done in the first 30 minutes so I just adjust the amount of hops to account for this.

The third is to boil off the DMS. Most of this should have been taken care of in the production of the extract.

This makes sense. I've been trying to read up all over the place on this method I want to try. I've mostly been seeing it's fine to do, but just want to make sure I am not missing anything before I give it a shot.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@NewBrewer2025 : getting color right "in the glass" with LME is challenging - as we are relying on the supply chain to ship fresh LME (and discard stale product). Forum wisdom suggests that "high volume" stores will ship fresh product. In my limited experience with LME, Williams Brewing (HBT sponsor) was able this - and if shipping from them to me was 1-2 days, I would likely use their LME products more often.

The usual approach (full volume boil, part of the 'extract' at the start of the boil, the rest at the end of the boil) will help . But ...

... if the LME has darkened due to supply chain problems (or storage in a garage: link), the steps you are taking won't matter. On a positive note, it appears that LME darkens in color before off-flavors ("metallic", "ball point pen") develop.

If the color of the beer in the glass matters, prefer DME over LME.

 

[NewBrewer2025]

@NewBrewer2025 : getting color right "in the glass" with LME is challenging - as we are relying on the supply chain to ship fresh LME (and discard stale product). Forum wisdom suggests that "high volume" stores will ship fresh product. In my limited experience with LME, Williams Brewing (HBT sponsor) was able this - and if shipping from them to me was 1-2 days, I would likely use their LME products more often.

The usual approach (full volume boil, part of the 'extract' at the start of the boil, the rest at the end of the boil) will help . But ...

... if the LME has darkened due to supply chain problems (or storage in a garage: link), the steps you are taking won't matter. On a positive note, it appears that LME darkens in color before off-flavors ("metallic", "ball point pen") develop.

If the color of the beer in the glass matters, prefer DME over LME.

Okay, this all makes sense.

Color doesn’t matter too much to me (yet), as long as taste is good. Still would like to try to keep it somewhat lighter if there is a chance.

I am sure I will be headed to all grain eventually anyway, but this is where I plan to stick until I really get my feet under me. I’ll look more into DME more as well. So far I’ve just kinda been taking what my brew house gives me, but I can probably start to request certain things more with time!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I am sure I will be headed to all grain eventually anyway, but this is where I plan to stick until I really get my feet under me.

BeerSmith podcast 320 starting at 2:30 (and then a short segment at the end) has some information on John Palmer's new book. The approach is stove top brewing, 2.5 gal batches, BIAB (no sparge). The book is not yet available in the US (it was published in the UK).

 

[IslandLizard]

Just an observation regarding the use of these malts in extract brews. Starchy malts, like these, need to be properly mashed (soaked for 60' in the right amount of water at 148-156°F) rather than steeped. IOW, they can't add their potential sugars and dextrins when merely steeped.
Although it will take an extra hour or so on brew day by doing a "mini mash," ahead of the boil, it's the only way to extract their potential.

 

[Steveruch]

BeerSmith podcast 320 starting at 2:30 (and then a short segment at the end) has some information on John Palmer's new book. The approach is stove top brewing, 2.5 gal batches, BIAB (no sparge). The book is not yet available in the US (it was published in the UK).

Why no sparge? I brew 3 gallon BIAB batches; sparging is easy and increases starting gravity.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Why no sparge?

Neither segment in the BeerSmith podcast had insights into the "why" of no-sparge (vs sparge).

 

[NewBrewer2025]

View attachment 870306
Just an observation regarding the use of these malts in extract brews. Starchy malts, like these, need to be properly mashed (soaked for 60' in the right amount of water at 148-156°F) rather than steeped. IOW, they can't add their potential sugars and dextrins when merely steeped.
Although it will take an extra hour or so on brew day by doing a "mini mash," ahead of the boil, it's the only way to extract their potential.

While I agree, isn't that the idea though? Aren't these just specialty grains primarily intended to contribute flavor and color and not the fermentable sugars?

 

[IslandLizard]

While I agree, isn't that the idea though? Aren't these just specialty grains primarily intended to contribute flavor and color and not the fermentable sugars?

Those malts can't exhibit their properties with a simple steep. To do so, they'll need enzyme activity during the mash (at typical mash temps and mash densities) to break apart the long starch chains. During a steep they will get hydrolyzed, but the enzymes are either denatured by the typical higher steep temps, and/or too diluted due to typical higher water volumes when steeping.

Mashing and steeping are similar processes, but with much tighter parameters for the mash (starch conversion by enzymes) to work effectively.

Wheat malt is base malt with high diastatic (enzymatic) power.
Dextrin malt is indeed a specialty malt, with no diastatic power, but needs to be mashed (with a base malt) to break apart the long starch chains into a variety of much smaller, yet unfermentable dextrins that will give your beer extra body, due to a higher final gravity, and thus extra mouthfeel without being sweeter.

Mini Mashing:
Wheat malt has very high diastatic power, you could do a "mini mash" using the wheat malt together with the dextrin malt. Since you're mashing anyway, add the caramel/crystal malt too.
Of course your grains need to be crushed (milled) before you can steep or mash them.

Perform a mash with the 3 malts (total: 10 oz or 0.625 lb) at 154°F for 40-60 minutes with 1 quart of (hot) water in a small pot. Try to keep the mash/pot around 154F during the entire duration of the mash. For that, you can put it inside a 150-154F preheated, but turned-off oven for that time. After 5' check the temp of the mash inside the pot and adjust accordingly if it's more than 2° higher or lower.
Give it a good stir every 10-15 minutes and do a temp check. You want to keep the mash between 152F and 156F.

When the mash has completed, separate the grain from the wort using a kitchen sieve.
When completely drained, put the grains back into the pot, add another quart of hot water, stir well and strain that too. That's your "sparge" (rinse). Add that to the wort captured in the first round.

 

[NewBrewer2025]

Those malts can't exhibit their properties with a simple steep. To do so, they'll need enzyme activity during the mash (at typical mash temps and mash densities) to break apart the long starch chains. During a steep they will get hydrolyzed, but the enzymes are either denatured by the typical higher steep temps, and/or too diluted due to typical higher water volumes when steeping.

Mashing and steeping are similar processes, but with much tighter parameters for the mash (starch conversion by enzymes) to work effectively.

Wheat malt is base malt with high diastatic (enzymatic) power.
Dextrin malt is indeed a specialty malt, with no diastatic power, but needs to be mashed (with a base malt) to break apart the long starch chains into a variety of much smaller, yet unfermentable dextrins that will give your beer extra body, due to a higher final gravity, and thus extra mouthfeel without being sweeter.

Mini Mashing:
Wheat malt has very high diastatic power, you could do a "mini mash" using the wheat malt together with the dextrin malt. Since you're mashing anyway, add the caramel/crystal malt too.
Of course your grains need to be crushed (milled) before you can steep or mash them.

Perform a mash with the 3 malts (total: 10 oz or 0.625 lb) at 154°F for 40-60 minutes with 1 quart of (hot) water in a small pot. Try to keep the mash/pot around 154F during the entire duration of the mash. For that, you can put it inside a 150-154F preheated, but turned-off oven for that time. After 5' check the temp of the mash inside the pot and adjust accordingly if it's more than 2° higher or lower.
Give it a good stir every 10-15 minutes and do a temp check. You want to keep the mash between 152F and 156F.

When the mash has completed, separate the grain from the wort using a kitchen sieve.
When completely drained, put the grains back into the pot, add another quart of hot water, stir well and strain that too. That's your "sparge" (rinse). Add that to the wort captured in the first round.

Okay, I am down to try this.

I wonder why the recipe just calls for a steep of these grains then. Just for simplicity purposes?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I wonder why the recipe just calls for a steep of these grains then. Just for simplicity purposes?

FWIW, people have been steeping grains that "must be mashed" (Wheat, Munich 10L) to get flavors and colors. Rumor has it the beer comes out fine.

 

[IslandLizard]

FWIW, people have been steeping grains that "must be mashed" (Wheat, Munich 10L) to get flavors and colors. Rumor has it the beer comes out fine.

Sure, the beer will be fine, but it may not be the beer it could have been, although differences can be quite subtle, indeed.

 

[redrocker652002]

I am going to revert back to your first post. If you liked it and it came out taste wise good, color would not matter to me. Enjoy the end result of your labor. Rock On!!!!!