Using Olive oil instead of Oxygen

[Accidic]

Oh and lest I forget, to the person who mentioned adding Ergosterol, this was addressed but not tested in several places (Hull's report included). It was also pointed out that while it is available to acquire it's not cheap ($100ish for 5g if memory serves) and has some pretty severe toxicity issues while dealing with it. Not worth messing in my opinion as adding a little harmless oil (assuming no contaminations) has no significant risks barring *MAYBE* head retention but Ergosterol can cause health issues if mishandled. We could differ on that outlook though I suppose.

 

[Accidic]

From my wife:

Monounsaturated levels:
Canola (Rapeseed): About 60% by weight
Olive: About 70% by weight
Sunflower (High Poly): About 20% by weight
Sunflower (High Mono): Over 80% by weight

 

[broadbill]

If nothing else, I used to enjoy several of the New Belgium offerings around the timeframe of this guys thesis. I don't know or remember anyone saying they definitively used it around that timeframe or not but I wonder if it's the little bit of oomph that's clearly missing from their current offerings. Poor case scenario is I waste a batch or two of potentially good beer to make subpar beer. Worst case scenario is it's undrinkable which doesn't seem too terribly likely judging from the great number of responses. In any event, where's the harm in developing another superstition or two?

If I may summarize your summation you fall into the camp that is can't hurt (much) so we may as well add OO? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I guess I'm with Denny on this one (if it wasn't obvious already)...that a treatment has to show some sort of positive effect for me to bother with it. Otherwise, where (or how) does one draw the line?

Lastly, I'd be interested to hear why you thought Vance's experiment was circumstantial and incomplete. From my reading, I thought it was much more solid analysis compared to Hull thesis. It is ironic that Hull, with his brewery and university affiliations (cough...money) couldn't pull off a better designed experiment than some dude in his basement.

 

[Wynne-R]

It’s an oversimplification to characterize the viewpoints as ‘Why?’ and ‘Why not?’ I would group them as people who haven’t tried it and people who have. People who have tried it seem to like it and continue to use it. People who haven’t are inexplicably opposed. Which is the more compelling evidence?

Vance’s experiment is a question mark. We don’t know anything about the beer. There were two samples labeled OO and O2. How was the oil added? Was it a couple of drops in the starter or a toothpick in the wort?

It never occurred to me that pathogens live in oil. I have been adding it to my starters for years, just before the stirplate. I suppose you could add it to the hot starter wort. Good idea!

 

[Haputanlas]

My whole experience with OO might be moot anyways. I was reading this from another HBT thread:

From the FAQ section on Danstar's website:

I always aerate my wort when using liquid yeast. Do I need to aerate the wort before pitching dry yeast?

No, there is no need to aerate the wort but it does not harm the yeast either.

Since I primarily use Dry Yeast and rarely use liquid, I probably am not doing much for the beer by using Olive Oil. However, I still believe I'm not hurting anything either.

 

[luke2080]

My issue with it is the flavor of the OO. I recently tried a west coast ale (brewery to remain nameless) that was fed on EVOO and had another one at a bottle share yesterday that I didn't know was treated with OO.

The problem for me is, the olive taste is present in the final beer. Since I cook with EVOO and have several different varieties in my kitchen, I can generally pick it out and differentiate between different types of cooking oils by taste when i'm out at restaurants.

The taste is just foreign to me in beer and I don't like it. It doesn't belong in the flavor profile of most beer styles (vegetable beer the only exception) and I find it disgusting when mixing with hops flavors in a beer like an IPA.

I'm now marking any EVOO beers I come across in untapp'd to avoid buying them in the future.

I've used 1 miniscule drop (put some on a spoon, then let that drip free, then shake off one tiny drip) into the 1.6 ish Liter starter, which gets split to 2 5G batches. I cannot taste the OO. That is all the OO you need according to the research.

I haven't proved positive results from a fermentation standpoint yet, but no off-flavors.

 

[Andrikos]

Wow, what a thread.
I finally went through it after a week of on and off reading.

From all the data and opinions I've read, these are my conclusions so far:

1) Add the OO in the starter and not the wort.

2) Only useful for liquid yeast starter. Don't bother with dry yeast.

3) Only use about half a drop (per 5 gallon wort) of (preferably sanitized) OO a few (5-6) hours before starter is to be poured into the wort.

4) Since oxygenation needs go up with higher OG, it seems that this would be more useful with higher gravity beers.

5) It looks like head retention is not affected by the tiny addition of OO.

6) People with little/no wort oxygenation wort abilities (other than splashing/shaking) seem to be the intended audience here despite the experiment's original goal (i.e. longer shelf stability). Brewers with wort oxygenation abilities need not (necessarily) bother with this method.

How am I doing so far?
Am I in the ballpark?
Did I miss anything?

 

[Wynne-R]

Nailed it. I can’t think of anything you left out.

Brilliant synopsis.

 

[luke2080]

How am I doing so far?
Am I in the ballpark?
Did I miss anything?

Yep - good recap.

Got results from the last batch I brewed. An FG of 1011 when this same beer with same starter usually finishes out at 1014. Now, I added a heater to my temp chamber to better get the diacytl rest, and I changed my fermentation temp schedule. But an encouraging result.

This weekend I'll split the starter for the batch. OO in one, not in the other. No other variables. I ordered an aquarium pump to for future high gravity beers anyway. May take me a year, but I'll collect up a bunch of data and post the results. Someone remind me to post those results in December 2013.

 

[Denny]

Nailed it. I can’t think of anything you left out.

Brilliant synopsis.

How about...

7) what has mainly been proven so far is that it doesn't hurt. There is no direct evidence that it helps.

 

[Haputanlas]

How about...

7) what has mainly been proven so far is that it doesn't hurt. There is no direct evidence that it helps.

That's fair

 

[broadbill]

That's fair

It is, but this point has been largely ignored by the majority of posters. Despite any lack of substantial evidence, they still think that if THEY try it, it will magically work...

 

[Wynne-R]

It seems pretty silly to ignore the original experiment and the myriad anecdotal evidence and then say there’s no evidence.

Do you think we’re all deluded? I guess it would be a buzzkill to consider that your oxygen setup could be replaced by two cents worth of cooking oil.

Is there anything that would convince you?

 

[Denny]

It seems pretty silly to ignore the original experiment and the myriad anecdotal evidence and then say there’s no evidence.

Do you think we’re all deluded? I guess it would be a buzzkill to consider that your oxygen setup could be replaced by two cents worth of cooking oil.

Is there anything that would convince you?

I don't have an oxygen setup and I really don't care about "buzzkill". What would convince me is to take a batch and split it, using OO in one half and a traditional aeration technique (O2, aquarium pump, MixStir, fermenter shaking, wort dropping...pick one) in the other half. Maybe even split into more portions to try more techniques. Pitch measured equal amounts of yeast into each. Measure fermentation time and FG. Then do a blind triangle tasting with the beers, both after about a month or so and again at maybe 3-4 months. Simply saying "I used OO and the beer came out good" doesn't cut it for me.

 

[Haputanlas]

I don't have an oxygen setup and I really don't care about "buzzkill". What would convince me is to take a batch and split it, using OO in one half and a traditional aeration technique (O2, aquarium pump, MixStir, fermenter shaking, wort dropping...pick one) in the other half. Maybe even split into more portions to try more techniques. Pitch measured equal amounts of yeast into each. Measure fermentation time and FG. Then do a blind triangle tasting with the beers, both after about a month or so and again at maybe 3-4 months. Simply saying "I used OO and the beer came out good" doesn't cut it for me.

We need more experiments! I've got a few professional brewer friends that I'm going to bug about this. It would be awesome to see some larger systems and the affects that resulted.

 

[luke2080]

We need more experiments! I've got a few professional brewer friends that I'm going to bug about this. It would be awesome to see some larger systems and the affects that resulted.

Agreed, which is the bigger point of this thread to me. This is a new topic, in a hobby where there are not a lot of new topics.

I've got the yeast in the starter, tomorrow morning going to split the yeast to two containers for the same 10G batch split to 2 5G fermentors. I'll put my tiny drop of OO into one before I start to the brew day. The other will only get the standard shake.

 

[Denny]

We need more experiments! I've got a few professional brewer friends that I'm going to bug about this. It would be awesome to see some larger systems and the affects that resulted.

I'd much rather see experiments at the homebrew level. Many times the things commercial brewers do don't really have any bearing on us.

 

[broadbill]

Agreed, which is the bigger point of this thread to me. This is a new topic, in a hobby where there are not a lot of new topics.

I've got the yeast in the starter, tomorrow morning going to split the yeast to two containers for the same 10G batch split to 2 5G fermentors. I'll put my tiny drop of OO into one before I start to the brew day. The other will only get the standard shake.

One problem you are going to have splitting up the yeast into equal batches. When you have a solution of yeast cells that equates to millions/billons of cells/mL, very small measurement differences (such as when you divide a yeast starter into 2 equal halves by eye, for example) result in huge differences in yeast number.

Additionally, even small differences in yeast numbers turn into huge differences in final yeast numbers after they have divided a number of times (as they tend to do in beer wort). See logarithmic growth curves, 2^n rule, etc.

The take away is if a difference is seen in your experiment you cannot rule out that each wort received the exact number of yeast cells. There is no way you can split a batch of starter and be sure that each one has a similar # of cells in it, unfortunately.

Second, your research plan follows Grady Hull's thesis, of which there is critical piece missing: it is unclear if oxygenation (with an method) is required in the first place, in the worts they studied. They did not include a wort that received no treatment whatsoever to test this. Their assertion is that OO has an effect because it was only minor differences between it and their typically oxygenation step (diffusion stone). Once again, this whole idea hinges on the assumption that the typical oxygenation step has an effect in the first place!!!

Let assume for a moment that adding supplemental oxygen does not have an effect on fermentation in the setup that Grady Hull used in his thesis studies. In this case, would you then see a difference in OO vs. their typical oxygen setup? No, because oxygenation doesn't have an effect in the first place, anything you add to the wort (provided it doesn't decrease yeast population) would not look any different when compared to it.

IN other words, their conclusion is based on an untested assumption...just like your experiment is. Ironically, both your experiment and Grady Hull's/New Belgium aren't being done correctly for the same reason....neither of you want to waste beer and therefore aren't willing to dedicate a batch of wort to a true negative control!

 

[broadbill]

Better experiments to do to test effects of OO on fermenation:

1. Find a way to "strip oxygen" from a wort before treatment either with OO or with a traditional oxygen setup. This will remove endogenous oxygen from the starting material, allowing you to separate effects of oxygen already in the wort versus the treatment methods.

2. OO is postulated to work because it contains ergosterol that is utilized by yeast to build cell walls during division. Oils with different amounts of ergosterol should have different effects on fermenation, but in a predictable manner (high ergosterol, better fermentation; less ergosterol, poor fermentation). Addition of exogenous ergosterol should also be investigated (this has already been mentioned here).

 

[broadbill]

It seems pretty silly to ignore the original experiment and the myriad anecdotal evidence and then say there’s no evidence.

Do you think we’re all deluded? I guess it would be a buzzkill to consider that your oxygen setup could be replaced by two cents worth of cooking oil.

Is there anything that would convince you?

Earlier in this thread, I've explained why the original experiments was flawed, and why we could not make any conclusions based on it. I've yet to hear any meaningful response to it, or any assertions as to why I may be incorrect in my position.

Anecdotal evidence is just that; I agree with Denny that it not worth much. If we hang our hats on anecdotal evidence, why not start adding marbles, tulip petals, and toothpicks dipped in petroleum jelly? After all, it couldn't hurt and there is just as much data on the advantages of adding these as there is for OO.

Below I've outlined experiments that would test OO in a much better way. Unfortunately I'm not sure if they can be done at the homebrew level.

 

[Denny]

broadbill, you are a wise man.

 

[agenthucky]

The take away is if a difference is seen in your experiment you cannot rule out that each wort received the exact number of yeast cells.

Here is the fail-safe in his argument, this can't ever be achieved. There are not two batches of beer brewed, ever, in the world, that are known to have the same number of yeast cells. The point is somewhat valid, one can count and estimate yeast cells but there is a level of error that is acceptable, even when dogfish head brews one 60 minute to another.

Despite any lack of substantial evidence, they still think that if THEY try it, it will magically work...

They're trying it to see what happens for them. They aren't publishing a paper on it or forcing you to do it. It has never hurt to experiment, even if the first time they do it that it has it's flaws. You sound like an A$$ for shooting down people for trying.

 

[broadbill]

Here is the fail-safe in his argument, this can't ever be achieved. There are not two batches of beer brewed, ever, in the world, that are known to have the same number of yeast cells. The point is somewhat valid, one can count and estimate yeast cells but there is a level of error that is acceptable, even when dogfish head brews one 60 minute to another.

They're trying it to see what happens for them. They aren't publishing a paper on it or forcing you to do it. It has never hurt to experiment, even if the first time they do it that it has it's flaws. You sound like an A$$ for shooting down people for trying.

So I have valid points, but I'm an ass for pointing them out. Got it.

I guess you could look at it that I'm not shooting down someone's idea, I'm saving somebody some time.

If I had a dumb/bad/not-well-thought-out idea I would hope someone would let me know....I guess were just a bunch of brainless cheerleaders around here, eh?

 

[Denny]

agenthucky, the problem here is that the people who just want to see what happens for them aren't making objective judgements. As Bill has pointed out, there are no systems for controls or comparison.

 

[agenthucky]

So I have valid points, but I'm an ass for pointing them out. Got it.

They were two separate points, you extrapolated them into one conclusion.

Are you having trouble separating concepts? Like lets say adding OO instead of adding O2 and whether that O2 in beneficial in the first place.

Also, you used 'ironically' incorrectly, probably to help make your point.

 

[agenthucky]

agenthucky, the problem here is that the people who just want to see what happens for them aren't making objective judgements. As Bill has pointed out, there are no systems for controls or comparison.

I get it, these aren't scientific experiments. It is down right impossible for that level of control in homebrewing, and even more impossible for a scientific level of comparison. The results are gathered by people opinions and perceptions of taste. What you are asking of these people is impossible, exact cell counts, removal of O2, which makes it easy to shoot down. Repetition in large numbers however does have statistical value, and can lead to a scientific study. It seems neither you nor bill are interested in furthering the concept, with the excuse that if you try this, you have to try everything. That argument obviously isn't enough for the people who read this thread.

I don't see the harm in people just brewing as a constant (to their best ability), with one procedure changed. Whether or not whatever O2 is in there is moot, it is in both and it's effects on the beer, positive or not, are the same. To really test shelf life, yes it is crucial that you strip out all the O2. This conversation has got away from that though.

 

[Wynne-R]

Olive Oil Addition to Yeast as an
Alternative to Wort Aeration

That’s the title to the original thesis. I think the effects of wort aeration are well known, born out by centuries of experience. Oh wait, that’s anecdotal. Well there are plenty of published experiments too.

The idea that the conclusions are not valid because they didn’t test some other hypothesis is ridiculous.

Anecdotal evidence lacks scientific rigor, but it would be wrong to ignore it. When I did my experiment I brewed the same recipe twice, a day apart. They were in five gallon carboys in the same closet and I observed the fermentation. Hmmn, observed, sciencey, right? Then I performed chemical analysis using pretty similar pint glasses and my own refined palate. I repeated this analysis over a period of weeks, until the beer ran out.

I don’t offer this as conclusive proof, but it is pretty solid evidence.

 

[broadbill]

They were two separate points, you extrapolated them into one conclusion.

Are you having trouble separating concepts? Like lets say adding OO instead of adding O2 and whether that O2 in beneficial in the first place.

Also, you used 'ironically' incorrectly, probably to help make your point.

Thanks for the English lesson. Maybe since you seem like the smart person around these parts, care to take a shot at some of the points I've raised relative to OO vs. oxygen addition?

Otherwise you come off as just another ****** who has nothing important to say so they point out spelling and grammar errors.

 

[agenthucky]

I guess you could look at it that I'm not shooting down someone's idea, I'm saving somebody some time.

Time is never wasted trying something new, and who are you to value their time anyhow?

How full of yourself and your ideas you must be to be that audacious

 

[broadbill]

Olive Oil Addition to Yeast as an
Alternative to Wort Aeration

That’s the title to the original thesis. I think the effects of wort aeration are well known, born out by centuries of experience. Oh wait, that’s anecdotal. Well there are plenty of published experiments too.

The idea that the conclusions are not valid because they didn’t test some other hypothesis is ridiculous.

Anecdotal evidence lacks scientific rigor, but it would be wrong to ignore it. When I did my experiment I brewed the same recipe twice, a day apart. They were in five gallon carboys in the same closet and I observed the fermentation. Hmmn, observed, sciencey, right? Then I performed chemical analysis using pretty similar pint glasses and my own refined palate. I repeated this analysis over a period of weeks, until the beer ran out.

I don’t offer this as conclusive proof, but it is pretty solid evidence.

Um, where is the evidence you refer to? The only solid evidence presented here is you drank some beer. Nice work professor!