Using Olive oil instead of Oxygen

[seabass07]

There's no harm. I've been messing around with this for a while and have come to the conclusion that the proper amount is so far below the threshold that would have negative affects that there is no downside. Try it on a recipe you make regularly and see what your results are. I look at it as an additional yeast nutrient that will help assure healthy yeast cells. I've stopped any aeration other than what happens from dumping my wort quickly into the fermentor and have had good results. I use the OO in my starters on a stir plate. I also have no way to quantify how helpful it is other than a good product.

 

[outside92129]

I've been using it on all my starters for the last year (just like the research paper says) and have had no ill effects. I put in a few drops, and most of the extra floats and gets poured off later.

 

[Firebat138]

so what about putting a toothpick in the oil and then in the fermenter.. would that be enough

 

[Denny]

There's no harm. I've been messing around with this for a while and have come to the conclusion that the proper amount is so far below the threshold that would have negative affects that there is no downside. Try it on a recipe you make regularly and see what your results are. I look at it as an additional yeast nutrient that will help assure healthy yeast cells. I've stopped any aeration other than what happens from dumping my wort quickly into the fermentor and have had good results. I use the OO in my starters on a stir plate. I also have no way to quantify how helpful it is other than a good product.

Sure you do. Do a split batch. Use OO on one half and just pour the other half like you usually do. The do a blind triangle tasting. I bet I know what the results will be.....

 

[broadbill]

Sure you do. Do a split batch. Use OO on one half and just pour the other half like you usually do. The do a blind triangle tasting. I bet I know what the results will be.....

This would be the experiment to do, and one that wasn't actually done in Grady Hull's thesis.

 

[seabass07]

Sure you do. Do a split batch. Use OO on one half and just pour the other half like you usually do. The do a blind triangle tasting. I bet I know what the results will be.....

Most likely, absolutely no difference. I've had good results with and without it. My point about not being able to test it is due to the fact that there is a lot of aeration going on during the transfer.

 

[ArcLight]

>>Most likely, absolutely no difference. I've had good results with and without it. My point about not being able to test it is due to the fact that there is a lot of aeration going on during the transfer.

I don't think the aeration during the transfer is as much as you think. It may be 3PPM, not 8PPM.
If OO is as good as a minute of vigorous shaking/rocking the fermentation bucket/carboy, there probably isn't much advantage.

On the other hand, if OO helps augment the dissolved O2, it might be worth it.

I think a better test is - normal transfer + OO vs active shaking. Also, for higher gravity beers, does the OO help?

 

[mrwilson]

I had been a fan of this for a while until my last two batches were contaminated by the olive oil. I now use a wine whip for aeration.

 

[Denny]

This would be the experiment to do, and one that wasn't actually done in Grady Hull's thesis.

But it was done by a homebrewer on HBD.org. A guy I know have great confidence in his results.

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/43688/45581.html

 

[Wynne-R]

Denny do you happen to know the conditions on that experiment? All I could find is ‘OO vs 02'. How much oxygen? How much oil? Any incidental aeration? What kind of beer?

If they were going with the nonsense with the toothpick it would be way different than a couple of drops.

Also not sure what sort of flavor ‘clean’ is.

 

[Denny]

Denny do you happen to know the conditions on that experiment? All I could find is ‘OO vs 02'. How much oxygen? How much oil? Any incidental aeration? What kind of beer?

If they were going with the nonsense with the toothpick it would be way different than a couple of drops.

Also not sure what sort of flavor ‘clean’ is.

I think Vance covered that in earlier posts, but I'm not certain. You could certainly contact him and ask for details. I have a fair amount of confidence in his experimental techniques, though.

 

[Wynne-R]

Thanks Denny for the quick response. I‘m not trying to impugn your buddy.
I just can’t evaluate the conclusion without knowing what the question was.

In the original Brady Hull experiment, the more oil was used the better it worked up to 1mg/L. He suggested even more might be better. The beer tasted better and had more flavor stability after three weeks at room temperature.

Here’s a link to the original thesis for readers not in a coma from this really long thread.-http://www.haandbrygforum.dk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Olive-oil-thesis.pdf

 

[Denny]

Didn't they only use OO for yeast storage, not propagation?

 

[Denny]

This is interesting....http://forums.morebeer.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22416&p=218107#p217847

From an email from New Belgium....

"To translate that into a 5 gallon size, you would need to measure about 0.0000833mL of olive oil. For any practical purpose, that is much too small an amount to accurately measure out. You could fudge and just add the tiniest imaginable drop to the yeast you have, but you'd be over-dosing the oil by thousands of times the required amount, and run the risk of having zero foam retention. Not a good compromise in my opinion."

 

[Wynne-R]

All controls were aerated in-line, with micro filtered compressed air, in excess of
saturation for the entire duration of the transfer according to the breweries standard
operating procedures. The tests were not aerated. For the test fermentations, olive
oil was added to the yeast in storage tanks five hours prior to use and the amount
added increased with each trial.

What Hull did was no air or oxygen for the oil batches. The people on this forum that have reported success with oil are aerating the wort somewhat through normal handling. It occurs to me that might be the best of all possible worlds. We could reduce staling and still have healthy happy yeast without all that shaking and bubbling.

Just wondering where Vance was on that spectrum and if he fell for the toothpick hooey.

Yup, that’s where toothpick hooey started. He made a mistake, it should have been .083 mL, about two drops.

 

[Denny]

I'll try to contact Vane and see if he'd like to participate in this conversation. May take a few days (weeks!).

 

[agenthucky]

I've tried one or the other but they suggest using both to boost the ppm of O2 for us shakers

 

[SC_Ryan]

Subscribed

 

[ianmatth]

I used a quick spray of olive oil for a yeast starter I made as well as the batch I used it in today: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/8th-hoppin-dipa-w-pale-malt-368703/

My OG was 1.080 and Wyeast recommends adding oxygen for an OG above 1.064. Nothing to compare it against, but we'll see how low my FG gets.

 

[Denny]

With no control for comparison, how will you know it's effective?

 

[Wynne-R]

Ooh! I just had a thought. Yeah, I know, but it happens sometimes. I’m not set up to do this now but I will be in the winter.

I did two identical batches a couple of years ago but the tasting was mostly me and I knew which was which. I could try it again and do a blind tasting with BJCP judges this time. I’m thinking just tell them the category and that there is one variable different, not even tell them if it’s process or recipe.

In the winter I use a space heater in my laundry closet. I could get away with using a thermowell in only one of the fermenters, they should be identical.

Am I missing anything? What do y’all think?

 

[Denny]

Do a blind triangle tasting. Don't tell the tasters anything except that one beer is different from the other 2 and ask them to identify which one it is. Then take the people who correctly identified the different beer and ask them a series of questions about its flavor. BTW, this has been done...it's by Vance Barnes, whose results I mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[Haputanlas]

Doing this on my next hef. Gonna be my first 10+ gallon attempt and I don't have a very good aeration system in place yet. Hopefully I'll have some good results to post on this.

 

[Denny]

Doing this on my next hef. Gonna be my first 10+ gallon attempt and I don't have a very good aeration system in place yet. Hopefully I'll have some good results to post on this.

How about splitting the batch so you'll be able to compare and give it a fair judgement?

 

[BrewOnBoard]

One more small data point on the olive oil thing.

I recently tried it after reading about it in a yeast book. Unfortunately they made no mention of quantities, though I guess it would be a small quantity.

I poured in as little as I could (which I estimate to be 1-1.5ml) into my 2.5gal batch. There was no problems with this beer's head retention and even though it was my first time brewing this beer it turned out just fine.

BrewOnBoard

 

[Denny]

But would it have turned out just as well if you did nothing?

 

[BrewOnBoard]

But would it have turned out just as well if you did nothing?

I don't doubt that I would have. I think my data point is potentially useful because I put in WAAAAAY more olive oil than is recommended and it didn't ruin the beer. I read a thread where a guy put in much more than I did and ruined his batch, so it looks like the point at which a beer gets ruined is above how much I put in and below how much the other guy used. (sorry I can't recall exactly how much it was)

That's about all I think I can learn from it.

BrewOnBoard

 

[Denny]

+1.060!

 

[Haputanlas]

How about splitting the batch so you'll be able to compare and give it a fair judgement?

Will do.

I'll post my findings asap.

 

[Haputanlas]

By the way, a good buddy of mine uses nothing but the OO method and swears by it. A few of his beers have been pretty fantastic. Can't say all are great, but I also don't think the lesser brews were lesser because of the OO. More likely just a recipe issue.