Using Olive oil instead of Oxygen

[camiller]

... Oxygen is a medical gas. How do y'all get your O2 bottles? Where do you get them filled? Is the stuff from welding supply houses the same?

Someone on the local (Omaha) craigslist is selling oxygen concentrators (with too many hours for medical use) for $75. They push out 94% pure oxy. Otherwise, like the others said, the little red cylinder from the hardware store.

 

[jimg]

I am not as experienced as most on forum, but I have used the smallest drop of OO in my starter. I think there was an article in Home Brew magazine that suggested using a very thin wire and barely coating it with OO. I tried it and had a great fermentation and no loss of head retention. My thought was, I only aerate wort by shaking, so why not help fermentation along with OO. What the heck give it a try.

 

[beerman1957]

I know this is an old thread, but I have been adding .03ml OO to 5 gallons of cooled wort. I have found no ill-effects of such a small amount. In fact, my oatmeal stout has great head retention. I don't really have a scientific method to test the actual oxygen that is produced with and without OO. I use extra virgin organic expeller pressed, if that makes any difference. Anyway, that small amount does NOTHING to the flavor or head retention of any of my beers. So, there.

 

[camiller]

... I don't really have a scientific method to test the actual oxygen that is produced with and without OO. ...

IIRC it is not that the OO causes production of oxygen but that the yeast use the oxygen to produce fatty acids which, if you provide the fatty acids via OO then yeast don't need the oxygen, or something like that. At any rate I think the small amount your using is even less than what New Belgium use in their experiment. One estimate I read was that New Belgium used the equivalent of .06ml in their yeast starter.

At any rate if it works for you rock on. :rockin:

 

[Synovia]

Was there any reason (other than fear of no head retention) that New Belgium used so little olive oil? We seem to be taking their numbers as gospel, when the experiments (and calculations) seem to indicate that the yeast isn't getting enough.

 

[camiller]

It was a long time ago when I read the original story. I think Grady Hull's thesis (it was for his MSc in Brewing and Distilling) is online if you want real details.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/thesis-olive-oil-aeration-method-57627/

 

[Gremlyn]

Next time I see a 1 uL pipette for sale, I'll pick it up. Given the numbers from the article, 1 uL would even be too much, but much better than a 'drop'. I'm a firm believer that having a well aerated, full sized starter for the beer you are brewing is the most important thing a homebrewer can do. If you grow the majority of the yeast before you pitch, you don't need much oxygen in the wort to bring the numbers up and get fermentation under way. I'd like to do some empirical tests on this at some point soon; probably do a full batch, split it in half and aerate the hell out of one and not at all the other, then pitch half of a full sized starter made on a stirplate (gives excellent oxygenation!) in each.

 

[raceskier]

Germlyn1,

Lightbulb!

I now use an almost immeasurably small amount in my brews. I dampen a q-tip with OO and just touch the tips of a few threads of my brew pot hop stopper before I assemble the fittings. (Stops the horrible squeal when I tighten it as well.)

Your starter comment made me realize another opportunity. I brew up and pressure can my starter wort. I am going to start adding perhaps a measurable amount (a drop for 6 gallons?) to that wort. I decant my finished starters anyway, so if there is excess OO, most will be discarded.

 

[shroomzofdoom]

Subscribed. I am following this article with much interest.

Though a bit off topic, I've had some anecdotal experiences with yeast and olive oil. I make my own breads and doughs and have noticed that if I add too much olive oil to my dough, the yeast suffocates and never reaches it's full potential, likewise if added too early to a dough, the dough never takes on the complexity and character that's most desirable after proofing. However, as most bakers will tell you--it's almost impossible to have good character to your dough without some form of oil added AFTER the yeast has had a chance to come to life. I find the 'ester-in-lieu-of oxygen' part rather intriguing.

 

[Gremlyn]

Germlyn1,

Lightbulb!

I now use an almost immeasurably small amount in my brews. I dampen a q-tip with OO and just touch the tips of a few threads of my brew pot hop stopper before I assemble the fittings. (Stops the horrible squeal when I tighten it as well.)

Your starter comment made me realize another opportunity. I brew up and pressure can my starter wort. I am going to start adding perhaps a measurable amount (a drop for 6 gallons?) to that wort. I decant my finished starters anyway, so if there is excess OO, most will be discarded.

I was actually starting to think along the same lines, though I was going more for adding a drop to a 1L culture, which I would then harvest into test tubes for storage. Same principle though...

 

[madavis25]

I know this is an old thread, but what about using olive oil and pitching more yeast to a stuck fermentation?

You can't reaerate after partial fermentation because of oxidation issues. People haven't had great success just pitching another package of yeast because there isn't enough cells and there is no O2 left for exponential growth.

If you pitch another package and add olive oil, or make another starter to which you have added olive oil, then you should be able to get another growth phase and cure a stuck fermentation, no?

 

[v2comp]

I know this is an old thread, but what about using olive oil and pitching more yeast to a stuck fermentation?

You can't reaerate after partial fermentation because of oxidation issues. People haven't had great success just pitching another package of yeast because there isn't enough cells and there is no O2 left for exponential growth.

If you pitch another package and add olive oil, or make another starter to which you have added olive oil, then you should be able to get another growth phase and cure a stuck fermentation, no?

Maybe, I havent had a stuck fermentation in more than 6 or 7 years so I cant speak to that specifically. I have been using a tiny amount of Olive oil in my starters instead of 02 for about 20 brews though, and so far they have been great.

 

[azingsheim]

I've done it with almost all my batches and when i have forgotten, I notice a much "Lighter" fermentation. My friend that got me into homebrewing turned me onto this

 

[beerman1957]

I have had one batch of Scottish Ale Wee Heavy which was about 1.70 but finished out at a VERY high 1.055. No matter what I tried, I could not get the yeast to start back up. I ended up pouring water into the finished beer to obtain a FG of 1.015 but obviously this is not the correct way to do it.

I was just watching Brewmasters on Discovery Channel with Dogfish Head and Sam C. just showed an entire 120 IPA batch go down the drain for the EXACT same reason. No matter what, they couldn't get the yeast to start again. It cost them over $500,000 in lost sales (yes, they are insured) but I feel the pain.

A lot goes into a brew and I have been VERY successful with nearly every brew I have done. I have NEVER had a failure on the Scottish Wee Heavy but for some reason I just could NOT get it to ferment again. Yes, I tried everything to include a micro drop of Olive oil and even injecting pure O2.

In the end the brew was okay but not something to be real proud of. Next time I am going to use a better starter and probably some yeast nutrient and watch the batch MUCH more closely.

 

[JewBrew]

I have heard of topping off with olive oil to prevent oxidation. Wine and oil are immiscible and the oil floats on top of the wine. The oil layer prevents contact between oxygen in the air and the wine.

 

[abbot555]

Interesting, I have never heard of this. So when adding the amount of oilve oil, when would it be added ? During the boil, or just when the yeast is added ?

This did get me thinking of its use in meads. Has anyone ever used it with sucess in meads? Head rentention does not matter with a mead

 

[gicts]

I have heard of topping off with olive oil to prevent oxidation. Wine and oil are immiscible and the oil floats on top of the wine. The oil layer prevents contact between oxygen in the air and the wine.

This tid bit of ingeniousness I have never heard!

 

[rosier9]

I have had similar experiences as azingsheim with much lighter fermentations without olive oil (I forgot)

 

[jessup]

I have heard of topping off with olive oil to prevent oxidation. Wine and oil are immiscible and the oil floats on top of the wine. The oil layer prevents contact between oxygen in the air and the wine.

that sounds crazy. good bye head retention i would rather add a layer of whole hops to prevent oxidation than using expensive olive oil. the amount of olive oil you need for the O2 replacement is much less than a single drop.

 

[kpr121]

that sounds crazy. good bye head retention i would rather add a layer of whole hops to prevent oxidation than using expensive olive oil. the amount of olive oil you need for the O2 replacement is much less than a single drop.

Wouldnt you only need enough to create a very thin layer of oil on top of the wine/beer?

I do agree with you that I would not be surprised to see no head on the beer.

 

[beerman1957]

I have tried the olive oil experiment. I used a diabetic syringe and measured to .025 nl per 5 gallons and injected that into the wort and not into the slurry. I did this based on some other results I had seen from home brewers that post here. I can say that the fermentation was very vigorous but I can NOT say it was because of the OO because of no controls to compare it to. In retrospect I should have poured off a liter or two before adding the OO to keep as a test.

I didn't see noticeably less head retention in the final product. I couldn't distinguish the taste and I didn't have a control to compare it to.
I didn't dare put more in and I am not sure I put enough in the wort to make a difference. So, it is true that the amount you use is very VERY small and I am not sure the big breweries that have tried this still are experimenting.

The idea, on paper, is sound. It comes from an experiment done by Grady Hull (and possibly inspired by others) and was done on a very big scale. The thesis is here:
http://www.haandbrygforum.dk/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Olive-oil-thesis.pdf

A bit of heavy reading. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the risk of losing head retention even at the very low margins of oil I used. Since I was not using scientific methods to measure, I can't really say how much is needed or if I used too much. I don't really want to ruin my beer based on a few studies. As time goes on I think we will see more experiments and possibly a calculation based on SG that one could add some olive oil as an oxidizer.

http://www.fermentarium.com/homebrewing/brewing-beer/should-you-put-olive-oil-in-your-homebrew/

I would simply not recommend doing this because I think most home brewers can get excellent results using traditional yeast starters and normal brewing procedures. I do admit I like experimenting but doing so without controls simply is anecdotal at best.

 

[ArcLight]

Maybe I'm missing something, but head retention is far far less important to me than making a good tasting beer. I care 100% about the taste on 0% about clarity and head retention.

My only concern with Olive Oil is the chance of introducing an infection.

 

[beerman1957]

Maybe I'm missing something, but head retention is far far less important to me than making a good tasting beer. I care 100% about the taste on 0% about clarity and head retention.

My only concern with Olive Oil is the chance of introducing an infection.

The amount of Olive Oil would be so insignificant, infection worries wouldn't matter. If Olive Oil is fresh, there should be minimal bacteria present. I suspect the alcohol produced would kill bacteria. In any event, I tried the OO addition of about 1 mil per 5 gallons. I have an endless supply of diabetic syringes from my Vet and I used that to measure.

Does it work? Hard to say. I don't think there is a good scientific study to prove it works. I just avoid it now. I would estimate there would NOT be enough oil to cause a significant head retention loss. However, no controlled studies have been done and it is unlikely it will be done. I also must add that simply extrapolating data is not a proven... in fact often DIS-PROVEN method of experimentation. One would have to repeat this experiment over time and using various controls... yuk, relax and have a homebrew!

As stated before, I just concluded on my own that OO injection is not worth it. I am not sure of results and not willing to sacrifice my brew just for science.

 

[monock]

Here is a good experiment showing the merits of using olive oil vs oxygen aeration.

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/...estroy-head-formation-and-retention-your-beer


I have personally used olive oil without any issues. One drop of olive oil when hydrating the dry yeast works great. Microwave 1 cup of water for 1 minute and then add 1 drop of olive oil. Mix it gently with a spoon to break it up. Let it cool until it reaches 80 degrees and then add the yeast and mix gently.

 

[samc]

Here is a good experiment showing the merits of using olive oil vs oxygen aeration.

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/...estroy-head-formation-and-retention-your-beer


I have personally used olive oil without any issues. One drop of olive oil when hydrating the dry yeast works great. Microwave 1 cup of water for 1 minute and then add 1 drop of olive oil. Mix it gently with a spoon to break it up. Let it cool until it reaches 80 degrees and then add the yeast and mix gently.

Pointless experiment. You don't need to add O2 or the Oil for a quality dry yeast as the manufacturer (Fermentis) has built that in the yeast. I never aerate or oxygenate my wort if using dry yeast.

 

[monock]

I wouldn't say pointless. It at least shows that the non-aerated beer tasted better and the oil did not affect head retention which was the main point. Does the olive oil help the yeast at all? I am not a biochemist but it is quite possible that the yeast made use of the oil.

 

[DannPM]

I tried this with back to back golden strong batches and I can't tell a difference in taste but the olive oil starter one did have less head retention, but not to the point of making it sub par. I used one very small drop for five gallons.

 

[camiller]

I tried this with back to back golden strong batches and I can't tell a difference in taste but the olive oil starter one did have less head retention, but not to the point of making it sub par. I used one very small drop for five gallons.

And the one small drop was still probably 100 times more than needed.

 

[broadbill]

I really surprises me that this olive oil idea has as much traction as it does. Grady Hull's thesis is scientifically flawed and inconclusive, the maltose falcon's experiments conclude that there really is no effect of olive oil, other than it only decreases head retention "a little bit", and the best we can get is a bunch of anonymous posters on the web forum that claim it has an effect when they use it.

Can't we put this one to bed? Leave the olive oil for cooking and if you want to oxygenate your wort, use a oxygen setup from your home brew shop.

 

[Nightbiker]

I tried it once by putting a drop in one fermenter and just aerated the second (both containing half of the 10-gal batch of the same beer) and the aerated one took off better, and the oiled one took a bit longer to complete, but in the end I wasn't convinced that oil was worth adding to my wort -far as I'm concerned, I'm with Broadbill. Olive Oil works GREAT as a cooking ingredient (and in our house we use it often) -but has no real place in my brewery.