Using ice in chilling wort

[UglyDude]

Hi,
I do partial boils when I brew, boiling 3 gallons for a 5 gallon batch.
Is there any reason I never hear of people putting ice directly into the wort to cool it quicker?

I've used very cold water from the fridge, about 35F-40F, but haven't used ice. I was thinking if I boil the water, sterilize the container, then freeze it, I would know the volume of thawed water, and it would be so much colder that my chill time would be cut way down.

Assuming everything is clean and sterile, does anyone see any flaws in this?

 

[flars]

Using ice is a technique some people use. As long as everything is sanitary there are no problems. The container, Ziploc bag or whatever is used, must be sanitized before being filled and the outside of the container sanitized before being opened.

 

[Talgrath]

It's hard to measure how much water you will get from the ice, mostly. Additionally, ice stored in a freezer with other foods could potentially be a source of infection; beyond that it should be fine.

 

[ruger988]

I used to boil/freeze a few one gallon blocks. Have themed sealed in tupperware or something of the sort in the freezer then put the block(s) into the ~120* wort to bring me to my final boil volume/pitching temp. Worked pretty good but I do full volume boils now.

Can't really say I notice much of a difference in the beer quality with full boils and it certainly takes a lot longer to cool, so I may end up going back to my original method.

 

[UglyDude]

Thanks all, I think I will give it a go ... one night this week will be sanitize, boil and freeze. then this weekend I can brew.

cheers!!!!

 

[flars]

It's hard to measure how much water you will get from the ice, mostly. Additionally, ice stored in a freezer with other foods could potentially be a source of infection; beyond that it should be fine.

If you freeze one gallon of water in a sealed container you will have one gallon of water when it thaws.

 

[UglyDude]

It's hard to measure how much water you will get from the ice, mostly.

this is the reason I hadn't used this method in the past, But by making my own ice in measured blocks, I should be able to get pretty darn close. if I do a 3 gallon boil, add 1.5 gallons of frozen water (ice) i should get somewhere south of 5 gallons. once the ice is completely melted, I can top her off.

 

[WayFrae]

I used to use bags of ice to cool my wort down. It worked better than cold water but nothing an beat a wort chiller.

 

[Weezy]

The trick is to measure the *water* volume, before you freeze it. Freezing boiled water in one gallon water jugs solves the volume and freezer contamination issues in one go.

 

[UglyDude]

If you freeze one gallon of water in a sealed container you will have one gallon of water when it thaws.

Ha Ha, we were answering at the same time I think, your answer wasnt there yet when i started typing. (im pretty slow at typing... except the backspace key, I haul ass backspacing)

 

[MB331]

this is the reason I hadn't used this method in the past, But by making my own ice in measured blocks, I should be able to get pretty darn close. if I do a 3 gallon boil, add 1.5 gallons of frozen water (ice) i should get somewhere south of 5 gallons. once the ice is completely melted, I can top her off.

That's what I do. In fact I recently did a 10 gallon batch ( 8 gallons wort, 2 gallons ice and top off water for water lost by evaporation . If you are going to do a large block of ice, be sure to have a pair of sturdy tongs to get a good grip. And if you are using Tupperware to freeze, let it sit outside for 30 minutes to start thawing and use something like a wooden tongue depresser to slide under the ice so you can grip it with the tongs. Finally, wear long gloves in case of a slip and the wort splashing upward.

 

[teamcoaster]

It's hard to measure how much water you will get from the ice, mostly. ...

If you are buying ice, this is the way to know how much you are adding to the wort:

One pound of ice equals one pint of water ("a pint's a pound the whole world round"). An 8-pound bag of ice is a gallon of water.

I believe that a kilogram of ice yields a liter of water.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

When I used to do partial boils I saved gallon milk jugs. Clean and sanitize the jug, fill with cooled boiled water and then (this is the weird part but it works) place a length of sanitized string in the jug, put on the cap on with string hanging out and freeze the jug. When you are ready to put the ice block in, cut the jug away with a sanitized utility knife and lower the block into the wort by the string. When the ice melts remove the string. The string saved me much slipping, splashing and general aggravation.

 

[ruger988]

When I used to do partial boils I saved gallon milk jugs. Clean and sanitize the jug, fill with cooled boiled water and then (this is the weird part but it works) place a length of sanitized string in the jug, put on the cap on with string hanging out and freeze the jug. When you are ready to put the ice block in, cut the jug away with a sanitized utility knife and lower the block into the wort by the string. When the ice melts remove the string. The string saved me much slipping, splashing and general aggravation.

So simple, so genius.... great idea.

 

[Yreval]

When I used to do partial boils I saved gallon milk jugs. Clean and sanitize the jug, fill with cooled boiled water and then (this is the weird part but it works) place a length of sanitized string in the jug, put on the cap on with string hanging out and freeze the jug. When you are ready to put the ice block in, cut the jug away with a sanitized utility knife and lower the block into the wort by the string. When the ice melts remove the string. The string saved me much slipping, splashing and general aggravation.

I use a pretty similar method, but instead of bothering with the string, I find that if I throw the jugs in my freezer right as I begin the boil, then pull them out right as I need to cool the wort, the jugs are just starting to freeze but aren't frozen solid. The icy water is quite good at cooling fast, and it pours pretty easy. Of course, YMMV with the temperature of your freezer and stovetop.

That said, I really like the ingenuity of your string solution, and I might adopt it in the future.

 

[MindenMan]

So this string walks into a bar, and orders a drink. The bartender asks, "Hey aren't you a string, we don't serve strings here", and the string leaves. A bit later he and his friend walk up to another bar, and the first string falls down, and gets ruffled. He walks into the second bar and orders a drink, the bartender, asks, "Hey aren't you a sting, we don't serve strings here", the string replies, "No, I'm a frayed knot".

 

[UglyDude]

That's what I do. In fact I recently did a 10 gallon batch ( 8 gallons wort, 2 gallons ice and top off water for water lost by evaporation . If you are going to do a large block of ice, be sure to have a pair of sturdy tongs to get a good grip. And if you are using Tupperware to freeze, let it sit outside for 30 minutes to start thawing and use something like a wooden tongue depresser to slide under the ice so you can grip it with the tongs. Finally, wear long gloves in case of a slip and the wort splashing upward.

I like the gloves and dropping warning... hadnt thought of that... i think I will stick to the smaller blocks made in stackable zip lock containers

 

[Fionnbharr]

It's hard to measure how much water you will get from the ice,

Not at all.

Water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon. Frozen, it weighs exactly the same; you don't lose or gain mass by changing phase. Density goes down during freezing (which is why it floats -- completely weird compared to most materials which don't float atop their liquid forms), but that doesn't change the mass/weight.

If the original post puts in 16.6 pounds of ice in the 3 gallon boil to chill it, the result will be 5 gallons of beer.

 

[Fionnbharr]

I believe that a kilogram of ice yields a liter of water.

That's the definition of litre.

1kg H2O is exactly 1 litre (at a temperature of 4C, and standard pressure). That's one of the things that makes SI (or 'metric') units superior to Imperial / US system of gallons and pounds -- it's completely reproducable without too many references to other things.

Absolute density of water in the US system is 62.4 pounds per cubic foot.

Huh? 62.4 is weird.

Absolute density of water in the Metric system is ... wait for it..... One.

One-point-zero-zero.

1 kg per litre, 1 gram per mililitre, and so on. Even to the point where it's 1 gram per cubic centimetre. A box 10cm x 10cm x 10cm holds 1kg of water.... or 1 litre.

Seriously; why would anyone bother with 16oz per pound, and 8.3 pounds per gallon? And even that changes depending on where you are. Once NASA sets up a moonbase, all moon-homebrew recipies will have to be rewritten to account for the change in gravity..... unless they're using 'metric' recipes. Those will work as-is

 

[UglyDude]

That's the definition of litre.

1kg H2O is exactly 1 litre (at a temperature of 4C, and standard pressure). That's one of the things that makes SI (or 'metric') units superior to Imperial / US system of gallons and pounds -- it's completely reproducable without too many references to other things.

Absolute density of water in the US system is 62.4 pounds per cubic foot.

Huh? 62.4 is weird.

Absolute density of water in the Metric system is ... wait for it..... One.

One-point-zero-zero.

1 kg per litre, 1 gram per mililitre, and so on. Even to the point where it's 1 gram per cubic centimetre. A box 10cm x 10cm x 10cm holds 1kg of water.... or 1 litre.

Seriously; why would anyone bother with 16oz per pound, and 8.3 pounds per gallon? And even that changes depending on where you are. Once NASA sets up a moonbase, all moon-homebrew recipies will have to be rewritten to account for the change in gravity..... unless they're using 'metric' recipes. Those will work as-is

But on the moon will the sun rise in the north or south?

I agree, the metric sys would be so much easier if us old dogs would just learn (an easier) new trick

thanks for the lesson... sincerely!

Cheers

 

[cheezydemon3]

I used to use bags of ice to cool my wort down. It worked better than cold water but nothing an beat a wort chiller.

I beg to differ.

NOTHING beats ice in your boiling wort.


Ice floats at the top, where the hottest wort is.


NOTHING BEATS ICE.

Granted, you can't do a full boil, but I wasn't doing that anyways.

 

[balrog]

Once NASA sets up a moonbase, all moon-homebrew recipies will have to be rewritten to account for the change in gravity..... unless they're using 'metric' recipes. Those will work as-is

Yea, but the boiloff rate's gonna be a beeyatch.

 

[UglyDude]

If you are doing a partial boil, like I do,
and you can't measure the exact boil off rate, like I dont,
and have to to off to 5 gallons in the fermenter, Like I do,
then all these calculations are moot.

I did this iver the weekend, added 1.5 gallons of ice, it melted quickly, I was down to 80ishF in about 10 minutes, topped off a little under .75Gal of super cold water from fridge and got down to 75ishF and pitched.

its a beautiful thing

 

[WayFrae]

I beg to differ.

NOTHING beats ice in your boiling wort.


Ice floats at the top, where the hottest wort is.


NOTHING BEATS ICE.

Granted, you can't do a full boil, but I wasn't doing that anyways.

Even if 100% of your top off water is ice, you still won't be able to bring the wort to pitchable temps with only using ice. You would have to be using an ice bath and ice.

EDIT: I suppose if you had 2 gallons of hot wort and 25 lbs of top up ice you could get much closer than I could with 3 gallons of hot wort and 16 lbs of ice.

 

[Fionnbharr]

Yea, but the boiloff rate's gonna be a beeyatch.

/*gigglesnort*/ That's funny.

But to 'splain to those who've forgotten Jr-High science.... the boiloff rate won't be bad in a pressurized living space.

Indeed, boil temperatures change with ambient air pressure, but at 'safe for humans' pressures inside the moonbase or wherever, NASA wort won't have weirdly-acting boils.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Yes, I boil down to 2.5 gallons of wort and pitch on 22 lbs of ice cubes. It is 68f in seconds.

 

[catalanotte]

Take two gallon jugs of drinking water ($.88 ea last time I looked). Freeze them. When your 3 gal boil is complete, cut the plastic off the jug and toss in your giant ice cubes. This should result in your wort cooling to about 75 degrees and yields a predictable additional 2 gallons. This is way cheaper and more sanitary than using ice cubes.

 

[cheezydemon3]

The ice cubes have worked fine and are more effective at chilling than big chunks. Kroger guarantees pure ice. Until I have a problem, it is worth 2.88

 

[MB331]

Take two gallon jugs of drinking water ($.88 ea last time I looked). Freeze them. When your 3 gal boil is complete, cut the plastic off the jug and toss in your giant ice cubes. This should result in your wort cooling to about 75 degrees and yields a predictable additional 2 gallons. This is way cheaper and more sanitary than using ice cubes.

Not to mention Eco-friendly. The reason I don't use a chiller is not because of the price but the waste of water. I believe that there are some who actually conserve the water and use it for other purposes but I also believe they are in a small minority. With all the gadgets and new machinery for home brewing I am surprised somebody hasn't invented a device to cool wort quickly with a minimum amount of wasted water. Until then I am sticking with my sanitized ice.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Ice beats any other method hands down.

That said, partial boil can have drawbacks. My beer turns out really good and fantastically clear, so I am sticking to using the 21 lbs of ice cubes that is less than $3

 

[catalanotte]

I moved to all grain full boils this year and miss the simplicity of topping up with ice or cold water for temperature control.

 

[IslandLizard]

Although you save water by using ice, how much energy are you using by making ice out of water? Carbonprint? Waterprint?

 

[catalanotte]

All comes down to a fixed number of BTU's of cooling. Depends on which resource is more important, the extra gallons of water (low BTU per pound) with no energy cost, or the energy cost to freeze just the right amount of water into ice (high BTU per pound) to get the job done.

Time for geek engineer numbers.

3 gallons of beer at 212 degrees needs to loose about 3550 BTUs of heat to cool it to 70 degrees. Every pound of ice melted and warmed to 70 degrees requires 182 BTU. That gives you 19.5 pounds of ice which yields 2.33 gallons with no wasted water.

 

[Talgrath]

Although you save water by using ice, how much energy are you using by making ice out of water? Carbonprint? Waterprint?

Well, assuming you freeze the ice in your already existent freezer, there's no increase in energy use. As far as waterprint, using ice probably uses less water than a wort chiller unless your tap/hose water is very cold.

 

[ong]

Well, assuming you freeze the ice in your already existent freezer, there's no increase in energy use. As far as waterprint, using ice probably uses less water than a wort chiller unless your tap/hose water is very cold.

Although, of course, putting room temp liquid in your freezer will increase the energy used by the freezer.

Once the wort is down to only 10 or so degrees above the chiller water temp, it takes forever to get it down much more. One thing I often do to get down to those last few degrees of cooling with full-boil recipes is place ice in a sanitized plastic bag and put the bag in the wort.