Using aged high alpha acid hops in sours?

[dcHokie]

I was thinking about the traditional usage of aged/debittered hops in lambic (turbid mash, coolship, open air inoculation) vs the approach of a low IBU charge of fresh, low AA hops in 'modern sours' (well-cultured bug blends, SS fermenters & hand picked barrels). I recall seeing something recently about the role of beta acids in aged hops lending a citrus/lemon brightness to sours.

In all that I've read, I've always seen low alpha acid hops mentioned for wild beers. What might be the effects of using well-aged high alpha acid hops in a sour?

 

[jester5120]

I put 1 oz. of 3 year old columbus (originally 12.7% AA) in an oud bruin. After about a year the beer is still a little more bitter than i'd like but still drinkable. I didn't get much in terms of flavor contribution from them but there was more bitterness left in them than i would have thought.

 

[dcHokie]

I put 1 oz. of 3 year old columbus (originally 12.7% AA) in an oud bruin. After about a year the beer is still a little more bitter than i'd like but still drinkable. I didn't get much in terms of flavor contribution from them but there was more bitterness left in them than i would have thought.

Interesting, how were they stored?

Part of what got me thinking about this was a pound of 3 yr old Warrior taking up space in my freezer. Using this calculator puts them at around 0.3% AA now http://brewerslog.appspot.com/HopAlphaCalc

 

[jester5120]

For the most part they were in the freezer. The guy who sent them to me said he kept them in the freezer too. I think the last time I used the hop age tool in beersmith it said they were somewhere around 6% AA after factoring in age and storage temp. I think it was somewhere around a 25 ibu contribution to the beer. I don't know if maybe using high alpha hops at flameout would give a good flavor/aroma contribution with low bitterness that would work well with sours.

 

[TNGabe]

I was thinking about the traditional usage of aged/debittered hops in lambic (turbid mash, coolship, open air inoculation) vs the approach of a low IBU charge of fresh, low AA hops in 'modern sours' (well-cultured bug blends, SS fermenters & hand picked barrels). I recall seeing something recently about the role of beta acids in aged hops lending a citrus/lemon brightness to sours.

In all that I've read, I've always seen low alpha acid hops mentioned for wild beers. What might be the effects of using well-aged high alpha acid hops in a sour?

I don't know, but I'm going to find out. I won a bunch of hops from Sierra Nevada including three one gallon bags of Cascade. I've been using the 2012 harvest, but I put the two bags of 2011 harvest in a paper sack and have them sitting in the basement where the woodstove is. I probably won't use them until around this time next year, so in three to five years when the beer is ready, I'll let you know. I used some 'unaged' 2011 Sterling in a bug county Lamebic I brewed in August of this year, but I haven't tasted it yet. Ithaca Brute had aged Cascade, but it's not a bacteria beer.

 

[Calder]

For the most part they were in the freezer. The guy who sent them to me said he kept them in the freezer too. I think the last time I used the hop age tool in beersmith it said they were somewhere around 6% AA after factoring in age and storage temp. I think it was somewhere around a 25 ibu contribution to the beer. I don't know if maybe using high alpha hops at flameout would give a good flavor/aroma contribution with low bitterness that would work well with sours.

I am currently using some 15 year old Cascade pellets. They got lost in the freezer for 12 years. Then I couldn't bring myself to use them. They have been sitting at room temp now for the past 18 months, and I'm using them up in sours. I'm still wary about how many IBUs they are contributing to the beer.

 

[jester5120]

I am currently using some 15 year old Cascade pellets. They got lost in the freezer for 12 years. Then I couldn't bring myself to use them. They have been sitting at room temp now for the past 18 months, and I'm using them up in sours. I'm still wary about how many IBUs they are contributing to the beer.

probably no bitterness there at all. those would be fantastic for sours if you're serious. if you're really wary about using them i'll help ya get rid of them

 

[badlee]

probably no bitterness there at all. those would be fantastic for sours if you're serious. if you're really wary about using them i'll help ya get rid of them

Me too!

Question
Let's say that I have some 5 or 6 % AA whatever pellets. How long would they need to be left out in a hot place( this is Thailand) before they could be good to go for minimal bitterness?

 

[jester5120]

Me too!

Question
Let's say that I have some 5 or 6 % AA whatever pellets. How long would they need to be left out in a hot place( this is Thailand) before they could be good to go for minimal bitterness?

I think they recommend like 4-5 years for pellets to completely lose their bitterness (2-3 for whole leaf hops) but that process can be sped up by breaking the pellets up into dust so there is more surface area and people have also de-bittered them by baking them in the oven. I don't remember the exact time or temp but i'm sure the info is on here somewhere.

 

[dcHokie]

I think they recommend like 4-5 years for pellets to completely lose their bitterness (2-3 for whole leaf hops) but that process can be sped up by breaking the pellets up into dust so there is more surface area and people have also de-bittered them by baking them in the oven. I don't remember the exact time or temp but i'm sure the info is on here somewhere.

I've heard similar timeframe for aging whole hops and pellets.

The debittered hops I've previously ordered from HopsDirect were 3 year old Williamette leaf hops, so that is essentially the same AA range as Cascade.

 

[Calder]

probably no bitterness there at all. those would be fantastic for sours if you're serious. if you're really wary about using them i'll help ya get rid of them

I dial them into the recipe at about 2.5 AAs, and keep it to about 10.

 

[ChugachBrewing]

I am currently experimenting with a set of IPA sours. Going to release them this spring.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/another-brett-bug-yeast-experiment-403400/