Upgrading to 10 Gallons

[rel]

Hello,

So I'm hoping you guys could give me some feedback on expanding to 10 gallons batches. I want to do it with my current equipment, minimum changes. Thanks in advance!



MASH

Batch sparging with a 10 gallon cooler with ball valve (pictured) as a mash tun. I don't think anything needs to change for the mash as long as the recipe has ~22 lbs of grain or less.

BOIL

15 Gallon boil kettle (pictured) should be able to handle a 10 gallon boil. I will watch out carefully for boil over. NEEDED UPGRADE: Adding a ball valve so I can empty the kettle with gravity, if not it will be to heavy to manipulate and dump into fermentors.

COOLING

If I haven't made any mistakes in my train of thought, this is the first tricky part. I have a 25' and 50' wort chiller. In the steamy Florida weather, I cool down the ground water using the 25' wort chiller in an ice bath, which then feeds the 50' chiller that goes in the kettle. Like I said, I don't really want to buy new expensive/more involved equipment like a plate chiller. I'm sure the cooling will take a little longer, but I should get out of the danger zone just fine. Any suggestions?

FERMENTATION

The trickiest part. I don't have a 10 gallon fermentor. Right now I have 5 and 6 gallons carboys, and I ferment in a chest freezer with temperature control (Even indoors with AC, fermenting at ambient temperatures in Florida doesn't produce the best results. Getting the chest freezer made the biggest difference in the quality of my brews).

So, can I split the beer into 2 fermentors? How do I make sure that I am pitching an equal yeast count into each fermentor (using liquid yeast with a starter)? I could alternatively use 1 dry yeast package into each fermentor. Regardless, will I get 2 possibly different beers simply because I have 2 separate fermentations?

If there was a cheap 10 gallon fermentor that could fit in the chest freezer that would best. Havent found anything on the market...



Sorry for the long-winded post, but I would really appreciate all of your help. Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

I always use two fermenters for my 10 gallon batch. Partly because I can't lift a 10 gallon carboy/fermenter, but also because I have a lot of 6 and 8 gallon fermenters. This is an opportunity to use different yeast and split the batches that way, so that's fun.

For chilling, what you're doing should work but take longer. It looks like you're well set up for 10 gallon batches.

 

[duboman]

Assuming you don't do a lot of high gravity beers the 10 gallon cooler will suffice for the most part. You seem to be dialed in on the rest and as for splitting the wort into two fermenters, yes, this is what most people do. As for splitting the yeast you need to be sure everything is measured out equally. For liquid, simply swirl up your starter and measure into two calibrated vessels, for dry, split by weight to be sure and accurate. THis also allows you to even use different yeast to experiment with the flavors each provides to the same wort.

 

[grainbill]

when I split a 10 gal batch into two carboys, I alternate filling them so as to "balance" the two. When I transfer to the secondary I do the same thing...don't know if it is viable or just extra work...

 

[reelmower]

I have a diy project .. that is a work in progress. I'm getting some stainless fittings online .. and have a old sanke stainless steel keg that I bought at a garage sale. I'm not modifying the keg in any way. I plan to take the spear out of the keg .. and attach a 2" tri-clover end piece to the top of the sanke. Drill some holes in the tri-clover end piece .. and put in some 3/8" weldless stainless steel nipples. For fermentation, I can attach a blow off tube or airlock to one nipple and seal off the other nipple with a cap. After fermentation, I can attach my corny fittings to the 3/8" nipples. I still need to make a pickup tube similar to my corny kegs .. but I don't think that is going to be a problem. The first time I try this .. I'm probably just going to use a big rubber stopper to hold my airlock and use my racking cane to transfer. There is a lot of info on this site .. do a search for "sanke as a fermenter". Depending on how much you have to invest in your second hand sanke keg .. and a few fittings .. you could have a inexpensive stainless fermenter ... that is not much larger than a glass carboy. As long as you don't alter the keg .. you can always put it back to original condition .. and use it to dispense with a commercial tap.

 

[fimpster]

On my 10 gallon batch, in my 16 gal boil kettle (also using a 10 gal cooler mash tun), I split the batch into two carboys and pitch different yeasts in each.

I have a friend who ferments his whole 10 gal batch in a 15 gal glass demijohn.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

I do 10 gallon boils in my 15 gallon brew pot no problem. Ball valve is definitely a must. Also a dip tube and be sure you have a vertical pipe on the ball valve discharge that extends below the bottom of the brew kettle so as to siphon out the last of the wort from the kettle. I split the batch into 2 brew buckets. Wish my chest freezer were large enough to hold 2 fermenters, the second goes into the spare shower in the basement.

 

[rel]

Awesome username! I saw this in Germany:

 

[sfish]

I assume you are chilling the wort in the boil kettle. Just pitch your yeast, aerate then split into two containers.

 

[mbbransc]

You could use an auto-siphon instead of a ball valve, if you have one. You could go ahead and brew a 10-gal batch now.

 

[YeastMode]

I live in Miami and I am looking to do the same thing you are, and have basically the same set up you do. In fact, I am questioning whether you may be a "parallel universe" version of me.

I think you have a good plan, so I am only replying to share two thoughts: First, I use a small fountain pump to circulate ice water from a bucket or cooler through my 50' copper worm chiller. It works fairly well. Second, if you decide to go with a 15 gallon stainless pot, I can help you drill the hole for a weldless valve if you need. I got mine from ebay for cheap, but if I did it again, I would look at the brewhardware stuff. If you really want to go crazy, I have a buddy that will probably weld a fitting on there and I may do the same if you go that route.

(BTW, its 87* as I wrote this post. It can be a PITA to chill wort down here....)

 

[RmikeVT]

Back in January I went from doing 6g batches to 12 gallon batches. I was using a 10g round cooler and a 8g turkey frier aluminum pot. I have a couple suggestions for you, based on my own experience:

Mashtun
With a 10g round mashtun doing 10g+ batches I constantly had stuck mashes and stuck sparges. This was very frustrating. It happened everytime due to the grain bed thickness. I would recommend adding 1/2 or 1lb or rice hulls to the mash. After several frustrating brew days I just ponied up and bought a 70qt coleman xtreme when it went on sale at WalMart. I fitted with a ball valve and a bazooka screen. You will also probably need 1 3/4 - 2 inch nipple as the xtreme cooler wall is much thicker than the round igloo cooler.

Also you will probably be doing 2-3 batch sparges depending on the recipe. So, you will start having to take into account mash pH and run off gravity and be very carefull not to get above 168*ish

Kettle:
Your kettle will definitely be fine. I have a 15g kettle and usually have a starting volume between 13.5 - 14g. I do use fermcapS to prevent boil overs, its amazing stuff -- 1 drop per gallon.

Chilling:
Your chilling method should be fine, you might need more ice. I eventually broke down and made a DIY counterflow chiller with copper tubing and a rubber hot water garden hose. If I had to do it over again I might not have done this, because I also ended up buying a pump and making a pump box, all a big pain in the ass....when my copper IC worked great.

Yeast:
I make starters and don't decant the starters anymore and pour half into one and half into the other. Or make a starter for one and use dry yeast for the other.

Fermenters:
Unless you are Hercules you won't be able to lift and move around 10g+ of wort/beer. So you are better off using two containers. If you get on some of the bigger online retailers websites they usually have specials 1 or 2 times a year and sell better bottles or better bottle alternatives 2 for 1.

Word to the wise: Plan on spending some $$ on equipment to do 10g all grain batches. 5g for me was easy to lift and move stuff around, etc -- but once you get to 10g+ everything gets real heavy. So you might need to buy a pump or build a stand, install ball valves, etc.

 

[chezhed]

(BTW, its 87* as I wrote this post. It can be a PITA to chill wort down here....)

It's almost always that hot or hotter here! Which is why I am so glad I use a plate chiller....well worth it. I buy or get 40 lbs of ice ($2) and pump ice water using a sump pump through the chiller and gravity drain the wort. (Yes, get a ball valve and a dip tube on it...) In about 15 minutes I have it drained and typically at 18C or lower when the temp outside is below 90....rare.:cross:

And like everyone else, I split it into two fermenters. I have multiple fermentation chambers....each holds a 6 gallon carboy and a blow off and nothing else.
I've done multiple experiments with alternating the flow between them and just filling each one separately and to be honest, I don't see a whole lot of difference either way but something just seems to be logical about alternating the flow, so I do.
Yeast, yeah, what they say.

 

[hio3791]

I have a 15.5 gal kettle that I routinely use for 10 gal batches. Works great. An IC will chill the wort but it will take a long a time. You can then siphon the wort out but a ball valve will make your life easier. If you install a valve, you may as well consider getting a CFC or plate chiller to speed up chilling and if you do get one, you may consider getting a pump.

If your heat source does not provide enough power to heat up that much volume, you'll need a larger burner. Once you get it all together, you'll soon empty your propane bottle and find yourself buying a spare one but even then, you'll fill up the bottles more often than you care to admit so then you find yourself looking at the electric forum, drooling over until you convince yourself that going electric is the answer.

Instead of just electrifying your kettle, you decide that an eHERMS is the right solution for your "problem", so once you put in 220V service, build a controller, build out the vessels and run electric for a while, you'll want to move your setup to the basement. You'll need to remodel so that you can run proper water lines, ventilation and draining.

Then, one day, while perusing this site, you find yourself looking at the automated forum...

Upgrading to 10 gal batches is the most expensive brewery upgrade. But no one tells you this.

BTW I use 2 6.5 gal buckets. Cheap, easy to move and easy to clean. About the only thing that doesn't need to change.

 

[chezhed]

I have a 15.5 gal kettle that I routinely use for 10 gal batches. Works great. An IC will chill the wort but it will take a long a time. You can then siphon the wort out but a ball valve will make your life easier. If you install a valve, you may as well consider getting a CFC or plate chiller to speed up chilling and if you do get one, you may consider getting a pump.

If your heat source does not provide enough power to heat up that much volume, you'll need a larger burner. Once you get it all together, you'll soon empty your propane bottle and find yourself buying a spare one but even then, you'll fill up the bottles more often than you care to admit so then you find yourself looking at the electric forum, drooling over until you convince yourself that going electric is the answer.

Instead of just electrifying your kettle, you decide that an eHERMS is the right solution for your "problem", so once you put in 220V service, build a controller, build out the vessels and run electric for a while, you'll want to move your setup to the basement. You'll need to remodel so that you can run proper water lines, ventilation and draining.

Then, one day, while perusing this site, you find yourself looking at the automated forum...

Upgrading to 10 gal batches is the most expensive brewery upgrade. But no one tells you this.

BTW I use 2 6.5 gal buckets. Cheap, easy to move and easy to clean. About the only thing that doesn't need to change.

Sounds like someone that starts with a Corolla and constantly envies a Mercedes:cross:

A solution for the lack of heat is a brewstick supplementing the LP burner! I use one on all my 10 or 12 gallon batches in either my 15 or 20 gallon brewpot. It has reduced my time to boil by 2/3....and therefore reduced my propane consumption......wait...I'm talking myself into going electric, aren't I? ....nope, not really....my modified Corolla runs well, thank you.

 

[rel]

I have a 15.5 gal kettle that I routinely use for 10 gal batches. Works great. An IC will chill the wort but it will take a long a time. You can then siphon the wort out but a ball valve will make your life easier. If you install a valve, you may as well consider getting a CFC or plate chiller to speed up chilling and if you do get one, you may consider getting a pump.

If your heat source does not provide enough power to heat up that much volume, you'll need a larger burner. Once you get it all together, you'll soon empty your propane bottle and find yourself buying a spare one but even then, you'll fill up the bottles more often than you care to admit so then you find yourself looking at the electric forum, drooling over until you convince yourself that going electric is the answer.

Instead of just electrifying your kettle, you decide that an eHERMS is the right solution for your "problem", so once you put in 220V service, build a controller, build out the vessels and run electric for a while, you'll want to move your setup to the basement. You'll need to remodel so that you can run proper water lines, ventilation and draining.

Then, one day, while perusing this site, you find yourself looking at the automated forum...

Upgrading to 10 gal batches is the most expensive brewery upgrade. But no one tells you this.

BTW I use 2 6.5 gal buckets. Cheap, easy to move and easy to clean. About the only thing that doesn't need to change.

Sounds like someone that starts with a Corolla and constantly envies a Mercedes:cross:

A solution for the lack of heat is a brewstick supplementing the LP burner! I use one on all my 10 or 12 gallon batches in either my 15 or 20 gallon brewpot. It has reduced my time to boil by 2/3....and therefore reduced my propane consumption......wait...I'm talking myself into going electric, aren't I? ....nope, not really....my modified Corolla runs well, thank you.

I was expecting hio3791 to go on with the story, explaining how he eventually went on to buy a full scale brewery for 10 gallon batches! Jokes, aside, thanks for the reality check. I'll be doing a little more homework before this first 10 gallon brew.

Chezhed, thanks for the brewstick idea, definitely going to look into that!

 

[hio3791]

I was being facetious and I have not gone as far as everything I said. My point was, upgrading to 10 gal can put you in a path to more upgrades. It can be done cheaply however.

 

[QuercusMax]

I just started 10 gallon batches, and my upgrades so far have consisted of buying a 15 gallon kettle, 4 half-size cinder blocks, an electric bucket heater to save propane when heating mash water, and some more buckets. I guess maybe you could include buying more kegs as well. My wife bought me a real wooden mash paddle for my birthday.

I am going to get a better chiller at some point, maybe one of those fancy JaDeD brewing Hydra chillers...

And a potable water hose so I don't have to jug buckets of water from the house into the garage. (I have a floor drain and hose connection in my garage, it's actually pretty sweet, I didn't even realize when I bought the house.)

One thing I have found much easier is hitting my mash temperature. I've started using the "underlet" method of running my strike water out of the kettle into my mash tun, and I just keep on stirring and checking the temperature until I get the mash temp I want. My efficiency has actually increased because I'm using the same 48-qt cooler, and so there's only half as much (percentage-wise) being lost to dead space. And on my new kettle the copper elbow I use as a dip tube on my ball valve comes closer to the bottom of the kettle than on my old 7.5 gallon kettle, so I'm actually losing less in the kettle. Plus the kettle is bigger, so I can get a nice trub pile in the middle of the kettle if I do a whirlpool.

 

[TastyAdventure]

I have nearly the same setup, and I don't base my recipes off of batch size, but mash tun capacity/gravity.

I have two 6 gal, one 5 gal, two 4 gal, one 3 gal, and three 1 gal fermentors, so I can use whatever combo I need to accommodate.

It's great. If I want:
1.070 beer, I can make 7.5 gal
1.090 beer, 6 gal
1.050, 10 gal

Eventually I will want a bigger mash tun... I have a 24 gal kettle that I'm currently using as an ice bath for my 17 gal kettle....

 

[chezhed]

I was being facetious and I have not gone as far as everything I said. My point was, upgrading to 10 gal can put you in a path to more upgrades. It can be done cheaply however.

and the someone i mentioned wasn't meant to mean you

 

[Zepth]

I have nearly the same setup, and I don't base my recipes off of batch size, but mash tun capacity/gravity....

It's great. If I want:
1.070 beer, I can make 7.5 gal
1.090 beer, 6 gal
1.050, 10 gal

Eventually I will want a bigger mash tun... I have a 24 gal kettle that I'm currently using as an ice bath for my 17 gal kettle....

If you don't mind my asking what is your current mash tun size?

 

[QuercusMax]

Presumably around 12 gallons, as that's what I have and I'm able to do the same.

 

[madhatter63]

Pretty much what I got going on also, however, my burner is to small and takes quite a while to get my boil going. I start to heat the wort in between sparges to help but still takes a while. So this could be a possible area for up-grade going from 5 to 10 gal batches

 

[wilserbrewer]

RDWHAHB,

You can brew 10 gallons with the equipment you have. Chilling will take longer, you could chill to say 100 degrees and finish chilling in your chest freezer ferm chamber.
Nothing wrong with racking with a siphon out of the kettle, no big deal it takes an extra 3 minutes. Or you can even sanitize a plastic 1 gallon pitcher and transfer with that and a funnel? Yea, rough but works, not embarrassed to admit I've done it.

If the wort is stirred prior to transfer to the fermenters, 1st half same as the second....rdwhahb. It's been churning boiling and mixing in the kettle for an hour, I doubt the top half is really different than the bottom half...

Split the yeast, I wouldn't stress splitting it with a lab scale, just do a reasonable job splitting it.




Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[wilserbrewer]

Also, if your mash tun is challenged by a large grain bill, try a hybrid batch fly sparge, drain initial runnings, then full with sparge water and keep adding sparge water on top of the grain bed. Even a cold sparge works in a pinch....
RDWHAHB
Cheers!



Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[TastyAdventure]

If you don't mind my asking what is your current mash tun size?

10 gal. My efficiency is 60-65%. I have pretty much given up on trying to get a better efficiency. I can't afford to buy my own grain mill, and my stupid LHBS's cannot get thin enough .

 

[Zepth]

Don't give up. There's more to it than just crush. I was getting some bad efficiency in the early on as well, much of which was needing to do a partial boil and top off water system because I didn't have the boil capacity. On top of that forget boil off volume. Tried a second parti-gyle boil for the "top off water," but that system took longer than the gains provided. Then I added another plain old pot to the stovetop and got it. Albeit slower than I hoped (pot quality matters!) and wasn't such a fan of it. I'm now dialing in an electric pot. That's besides the point.

Back on track, don't give up. Try different combinations of water/grist ratio. I had luck earlier on using a thick mash. Why? It allowed a huge amount of sparge water. I double sparged that grain bed! Right there was about a 5% boost alone. Will the LHBS double crush grain? If not take a rolling pin to it after the first time through. I assure you it'll be much easier than trying this with uncrushed.

 

[QuercusMax]

I use a super cheap Corona-style mill that I made I have mounted inside a 5-gallon bucket, and I get around 77% efficiency using a rectangular cooler and hose braid. I think the whole thing ran me less than $35, including the 3-gallon water jug I use as a hopper. I took a metal file to a few spots where it wasn't turning evenly, and it does a great job now - I've used it on 80+ batches, no problems.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

You could use an auto-siphon instead of a ball valve, if you have one. You could go ahead and brew a 10-gal batch now.

I dont believe the plastic in the autosiphon would hold up to the temp of boiling wort.

 

[QuercusMax]

I dont believe the plastic in the autosiphon would hold up to the temp of boiling wort.

If you chill with an immersion chiller first it should be fine.