Unpasteurised Apple Juice - Risks?

[AlexBr]

I've been in contact with a local orchard who's agreed to supply me with unpasteurised juice straight from the press. As he pasteurises in the bottle, the price would increase substantially if I went for the bottled pasteurised apple juice option.

I'd be looking to fill 2x25l carboys but I'm a little concerned about the juice spoiling. Obviously, I would sterilise equipment as much as I could on site but how big a risk is there of spoiling with unpasteurised juice? Would adding the yeast immediately help to mitigate any risks?

Thanks for any help in advance. I really don't want to miss out on this season's crop.

 

[Drewed]

Unsterillised should either be refrigerated asap, have chemicals added (campden,) a prayer sent to the gods of wild ferments, or yeast dumped in.

 

[AlexBr]

Thanks for the answer. Could I also add sulphites to the carboys and leave them for 2 days before adding in my yeasts?

 

[Drewed]

Yep.

 

[Miraculix]

Let them go wild!

 

[ten80]

Thanks for the answer. Could I also add sulphites to the carboys and leave them for 2 days before adding in my yeasts?

Yep. shoot for 50 ppm SO2 for "partial wild yeast kill" and 100 ppm for "complete yeast kill." This is pH dependent so do check THIS TABLE to determine your dosing.

I usually shoot for 50 ppm SO2, let sit 48 hours, then pitch 1 pack of rehydrated wine yeast in 5-6 gallons. My ciders have a very slight "funk" which leads me to think that a little wild yeast survives the sulfite, which is fine with me as I have bottles that are 2+ years old and haven't exploded or turned to vinegar.

 

[TGFB]

Sorry to add on to the question, but you guys are the people I need... I was going to split between wild fermentation, and my cider-beer recipe including hops and some mash. I have the same type of cider. no pasteurization etc. So two gallons go to the wild (just to see what happens) and I use 3 for the recipe.
If I use champagne or wine yeast will it knock out the wild organisms including bacteria? I have never tried being so.... dirty? when making it. Does unpasteurized cider change the taste a whole bunch? Just have never done it this way because of such strict hygiene for beer... like tom cruise in "eyes wide shut"....

 

[ten80]

Wine yeast will probably do most of the fermentation in unpasteurized juice, but won't kill wild yeast and bacteria, so you'll likely get a cider with "funk."

Unpasteurized or non-sulfited apple juice will result in a little to a lot of "funk." Depends on whether you pitch wine yeast and what wild microorganisms take hold.

Look up "graff" recipes for inspiration for your "Cider-beer" so that you have a basis to go on that is proven. I wasted 3 gallons of apple juice last year making an apple-berlinerweiss that was a poor idea from the get-go

Good luck!

 

[TGFB]

Thanks for the help! I have made several batches of a ciderbeer. winged it, and it worked out really well, but i have always used pasteurized cider (and after reading some of these threads apparently really lucky)
I am going to try and bring the wild cider up to 190 for 10 minutes or so, like a wart, and then add my grain mash I just made with my freedom water cooker (different thread), and cool it all and pitch some wine yeast and see where it takes me.
Also, putting wild cider on the side in my mini- gallon fermentor no yeast just let it go and see where it takes my drunkslef for fun!
dam i love bucket brewing!

 

[AlexBr]

Yep. shoot for 50 ppm SO2 for "partial wild yeast kill" and 100 ppm for "complete yeast kill." This is pH dependent so do check THIS TABLE to determine your dosing.

I usually shoot for 50 ppm SO2, let sit 48 hours, then pitch 1 pack of rehydrated wine yeast in 5-6 gallons. My ciders have a very slight "funk" which leads me to think that a little wild yeast survives the sulfite, which is fine with me as I have bottles that are 2+ years old and haven't exploded or turned to vinegar.

Thanks for all this great info. Can't wait to get this batch going.

 

[ten80]

...
I am going to try and bring the wild cider up to 190 for 10 minutes or so, like a wart, and then add my grain mash I just made with my freedom water cooker (different thread), and cool it all and pitch some wine yeast and see where it takes me.

Just checking but it reads as if you might be considering a mash with your Apple Juice. If so, it would be a bad idea to use apple juice as your strike water, the pH of apple juice (pH 3-4) is much too low for beer mashing which should be around pH 5.2-5.8.

 

[TGFB]

Thanks! no, to many beers! mashing with water, then boil then hopping, cooling, then adding pasteurized cider.
attempting to give it a unique body from the med. crystal malt and a bite from the cascade. all the while burning as much sugar as possible. I have no idea whats going to happen....

let the experiment begin! Thanks again for all the info, and sorry for jumping in here...

 

[Drewed]

I'm not sure you will be happy with a wine yeast. It can / will burn through all of your fermentables leaving you with a very dry drink. I'd toss in a clean fermenting ale, or a 'monistary' or ' abby' ale if you want it to booze up to a higher level.

 

[TGFB]

Oh... welllll that ship has sailed....
But thanks! I ll have to try that next batch. Unless this turns out delicious, then I will make a half and half and do a taste test...

 

[ten80]

If it turns out too dry or too bitter from the hopping, then you can always add a very light-colored (pilsener or wheat) liquid extract to add some residual sweetness. About 1-2 pounds poured right into the fermenter should work to add a noticeable amount of unfermentable sugars. It will obviously take a few extra weeks to ferment out. This has worked well for me using wine yeasts.

 

[TGFB]

Not boiled at all? no worries about contaminants? interesting...
its already bubbling away so figure burnout will be pretty quick.
Thanks for that, cool idea

 

[ten80]

Not boiled at all? no worries about contaminants? interesting...
its already bubbling away so figure burnout will be pretty quick.
Thanks for that, cool idea

Dry and liquid malt extract have already been boiled by the maltster and are generally sterile until you open the package. I use liquid malt extract in my ciders because it can be warmed and poured directly into the fermenter. Don't forget to de-gas your cider before pouring it in or else FOAM VOLCANO!

 

[Scrumpy!]

Most types of yeast are your friends and many types of bacteria are your enemies. Contrary to some opinions, sulfite in recommended doses does not kill yeast, it halts their reproduction long enough for commercial yeast to get established and out compete it. Sulfite does kill bacteria which can infect your ferment. Most wine producing countries restrict the addition of sulfite to low levels in the finished beverage for health reasons so use care when adding it to avoid poisoning your friends.

My advice is sulfite your juice to 50 ppm when you pick it up. Refrigeration is not necessary unless the temperature is above 25 deg C for the next 24 hrs. Otherwise, wait a day for the sulfite to act, raise the temperature above 22 deg C then add the commercial yeast of your choice. When you are sure fermentation is underway cool it to 15 deg to slow it down for the rest of the terment. If you want to roll the dice on wild fermentation, cut the sulfite dose in half. A wild ferment can take a few days to get established and take a year to go to completion. If you are that patient, you might make some really good cider.

Here is a fermentation curve for a wild ferment I bottled last week. Note that it started at 1.058 and got down to 1.013 after 330 days, It could take another 300 days to get to the FG and carbonation level I want.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=417401&stc=1&d=1508126785

 

[ten80]

I agree completely with Scrumpy. What does "FSU" mean in your chart and do you have a gravity end point for the 71B, or is it still going?

 

[Maylar]

FSU is a term coined by cider master Claude Jolicoeur and means Fermentation Speed Units. One FSU is 1 gravity point in 100 days. Jolicour describes the progress of his fermentations in those terms in his book, "The New Cider Maker's Handbook", a highly recommended read for apple freaks.

 

[Scrumpy!]

Maylar is right, FSU is a measure of the speed of fermentation. You can see on my graph that it varies dramatically at first which is due to things like racking which I do every 10 point drop and temperature which is controlled by how cold it is at night and how much I leave my garage doors open overnight. It would be nice to have a climate controlled environment but this is amateur cider making.

By racking every 10 point drop, I am depriving my yeast of nutrient recycling from the lees. This really slows the fermentation down with each racking and can eventually starve even commercial yeast despite the presence of un-metabolized sugar. This is tricky business since I don't monitor YAN (yeast available nitrogen). There is a titration I could do to quantify this which would enable me to stoke the yeast with just enough DAP to get where I want to go but I haven't tried that yet.

The 71B was blended into a larger batch at the last data point so it disappears from the graph. Now it is disappearing down our throats while the wild ferment sits in bottles waiting for Thanksgiving 2018.

Note that the initial FSU of both the commercial 71B yeast and the wild yeast were similar. If I had left some of the 71B batch to ferment further, it might have gone to 1.010 in another 6-8 weeks. The last data point on the 71B is probably anomalous and was more likely to be around 1.022. I must have been over sampling the taste of that cider when I took the SG measurement. You can see the SG goes up from time to time which is of course impossible. These are just bad measurements on my part. Got to remember to measure SG first then do my taste sampling.