Uninspiring IPAs

[Steven Barrett]

So in my two year brewing journey I’ve attempted to make IPAs my favorite style more than any other. My beer before last, a porter, won a gold medal at the latest homebrew festival in town but my most recent IPA which I fermented in the keg to minimize oxygen exposure tastes like, well, nothing. There is no hop aroma whatsoever despite 4 oz of dry hopping. (Full disclosure, I did open the keg many times throughout the process. Several times to install a diptube filtered which failed to work. Then again to install a floating top draw device, which works really well.)

It tastes a bit flat, a bit stale, no aroma, the only perceptible flavor is some spiciness from the rye.

I am being immensely critical. It’s definitely beer. It’s for sure drinkable. But it’s not what I’m going for. I know my process could be improved. I’ve read enough posts, books, and podcasts and it feels like I’m the only person who is experiencing the dry hop black hole. The aroma is there in the hops. I drop them in the keg. But they vanish somewhere in the middle. I once dry hopped with 5 oz of cryo hops in a 5 gal batch and all that resulted was sweetness.

Any malt based beer, I feel extremely confident in my ability but the IPA (which ironically is supposed to be forgiving) is the nut I can’t crack.

 

[Jtvann]

You already acknowledged opening the keg, not just once but multiple times. Might as well call it a 5 gallon bucket after that. There's zero closed ferment benefit when opening up a bunch. It's probably oxidized.

In my opinion, dry hopping contributes aroma and some flavor. Late boil hops, 15 mins and less, and whirlpool gives more flavor. You don't have to beat a beer over the head with hops to get good flavor. One of my favorite beers only has 5oz total in the boil and dry hop. This NEIPA hop craze needs to die when considering traditional IPAs. Remember zombie dust that was so freaking good? It used 8oz total in the boil and dry hop. It also was considered a lot of hops.

I question a lot when people say they dont have good hop flavor, if they've just killed the beer with too many hops which muddles the overall flavor.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

In the past year I have finally started making IPAs that I am proud of. I made a number of improvements/changes in 2019, but I feel like my IPAs benefited from:

Water Chemistry: My tap is quite low in Sulfate and without salt additions or pH adjustments my mash pH would come in around 6.0. I shoot for Sulfate in the 150 to 200 range and a pH in the 5.4 range.

Closed Keg Transfers and Limiting Cold Side Oxidation: I do everything I can now to avoid any air/oxygen exposure after fermentation slows. I use mylar balloons to avoid suck back during cold crashing and when taking samples from the spigots on my fermenters. I limit any air exposure during dry hopping.

Hops Amounts: I dug my feet for a while thinking that I should be able to make hoppy beers with 4 or 6 oz of hops. My last IPA had 5 oz of late boil hops and 4 oz of dry hops. I have an NEIPA in the fermenter with 8 oz of late hops and 6 oz of dry hops. There are diminishing returns, and I do enjoy lesser hopped Pale Ales, but I have learned that the best way to get more hop punch is to use more hops.

Less and Lighter Crystal: Maybe more of a personal preference, but I have moved from often using 10% Crystal 40 and 60, to maybe 5% Crystal 20, and looking to use more malts like Munich.

 

[Jtvann]

This reminds me of something a friend called IPAs a few years back. He referred to them as "Pallat Crushers". If you want to smoke out your taste buds with a lb of hops in a 5 gallon batch and call it your favorite beer ... more power to you. Do your thing. If you want to call it a traditional IPA ... you're wrong.

 

[day_trippr]

No way around it, the math strongly suggests major oxidation, four ounces of dry hops does not simply vanish without cause.
Process needs major revision to avoid all those keg openings at least...

Cheers!

 

[Steven Barrett]

This NEIPA hop craze needs to die when considering traditional IPAs. Remember zombie dust that was so freaking good? It used 8oz total in the boil and dry hop. It also was considered a lot of hops.

Preach. I long for the days of West Coast IPA. The bitterness gave it balance between the hops and the malt.

What I love about home brewing is the ability to brew exactly what I want. The trouble is getting what’s in my brain into the glass.

Sounds like there’s general consensus that I’m oxidizing the beer. So how does one dry hop without opening the vessel and exposing it to oxygen? The only method I can think of is placing the hops into a CO2 purge keg and then closed transferring into this “secondary.” That seems extreme. (Plus I only have one keg.)

Aren’t there people on this site making killer beers with carboys and bottling buckets? How are they not exposing the beer to oxygen?

 

[marchuk96]

Preach. I long for the days of West Coast IPA. The bitterness gave it balance between the hops and the malt.

What I love about home brewing is the ability to brew exactly what I want. The trouble is getting what’s in my brain into the glass.

Sounds like there’s general consensus that I’m oxidizing the beer. So how does one dry hop without opening the vessel and exposing it to oxygen? The only method I can think of is placing the hops into a CO2 purge keg and then closed transferring into this “secondary.” That seems extreme. (Plus I only have one keg.)

Aren’t there people on this site making killer beers with carboys and bottling buckets? How are they not exposing the beer to oxygen?

You said you used a keg...do you have co2? are you not purging the keg after opening it? If the answer is no to those questions then why even use the keg?....purging the keg would remove the o2 you picked up(multiple times) when you opened it...if you didn't purge you essentially trapped o2 in your keg/beer and oxidized the hell out of it...explaining your lack luster performance with dry hopping...

 

[Steven Barrett]

You said you used a keg...do you have co2? are you not purging the keg after opening it? If the answer is no to those questions then why even use the keg?....purging the keg would remove the o2 you picked up(multiple times) when you opened it...if you didn't purge you essentially trapped o2 in your keg/beer and oxidized the hell out of it...explaining your lack luster performance with dry hopping...

Yes I have CO2. No I did not purge after opening. Honestly the thought didn’t cross my mind. That is a good suggestion.

 

[mrdauber64]

This sounds like a Water Chemistry issue to me. If you are making gold medal Porter's that means that your water is suited for dark beers, not pale, hoppy beers. Try using store bought Distilled or RO water and build a water profile using the water software of your choice.

If it is was oxidized you would still get bitterness and aroma in the beginning. Oxidation would be a progressive change in most cases.

 

[Steven Barrett]

This sounds like a Water Chemistry issue to me. If you are making gold medal Porter's that means that your water is suited for dark beers, not pale, hoppy beers. Try using store bought Distilled or RO water and build a water profile using the water software of your choice.

If it is was oxidized you would still get bitterness and aroma in the beginning. Oxidation would be a progressive change in most cases.

I had a calculated 3.0 sulfate to chloride ratio and a targeted 5.35 pH per Bru’N Water, so I would hope my water chemistry is covered.

For the porter I targeted a similar pH and a 1:1 sulfate to chloride to accentuate the maltiness. Interestingly, the harsher judge’s feedback was there was little aroma. Which is the same issue I’m tackling with the IPAs, just at a larger scale.

 

[Jag75]

Yes I have CO2. No I did not purge after opening. Honestly the thought didn’t cross my mind. That is a good suggestion.

This right here is the issue. I purge everytime I open my FV. What also has been a game changer for my IPAs is dry hopping right before I package. When I'm 3-5 days out I dry hop , purge and then package .

 

[brew703]

This right here is the issue. I purge everytime I open my FV. What also has been a game changer for my IPAs is dry hopping right before I package. When I'm 3-5 days out I dry hop , purge and then package .

Are you cold crashing during the dry hop period? Are you throwing your hops in loose or in a bag?

 

[wsmith1625]

This sounds like a Water Chemistry issue to me. If you are making gold medal Porter's that means that your water is suited for dark beers, not pale, hoppy beers. Try using store bought Distilled or RO water and build a water profile using the water software of your choice.

If it is was oxidized you would still get bitterness and aroma in the beginning. Oxidation would be a progressive change in most cases.

I was thinking water chemistry as well. Good suggestion to use RO on the next batch.

 

[Jag75]

Are you cold crashing during the dry hop period? Are you throwing your hops in loose or in a bag?

I use bags

 

[wsmith1625]

If your PH is too high, you will not get good hop utilization. Target PH is 5.2 in the mash. Don't buy the 5.2 PH Stabilizer like I did. If you read the reviews, it doesn't work and adds salt to your beer. Get your water professionally tested.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Sounds like there’s general consensus that I’m oxidizing the beer. So how does one dry hop without opening the vessel and exposing it to oxygen? The only method I can think of is placing the hops into a CO2 purge keg and then closed transferring into this “secondary.” That seems extreme. (Plus I only have one keg.)

Aren’t there people on this site making killer beers with carboys and bottling buckets? How are they not exposing the beer to oxygen?

It's not extreme. I ferment in kegs, and I do it one of two ways. Either load a separate dry hop keg with the dry hops at the beginning of fermentation, attached with the jumper so fermentation completely purges it. Then after a cold crash I'll transfer straight into it. Or, I dry hop in primary at the tail end of fermentation, like 48-72 hours after pitch. I purge the keg with CO2 after closing it up but then the remaining active fermentation will help purge as well. There is no way around it, limiting O2 is the most important aspect of making a good hoppy beer. Way more important than what hops or malts you select.

In terms of people making killer beers in buckets and carboys where they expose it to lots of O2, I'm skeptical. As least for really hoppy styles and what I consider "killer". But taste is extremely subjective.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Sounds like there’s general consensus that I’m oxidizing the beer. So how does one dry hop without opening the vessel and exposing it to oxygen? The only method I can think of is placing the hops into a CO2 purge keg and then closed transferring into this “secondary.” That seems extreme. (Plus I only have one keg.) That's not extreme - that's one very good way to do it (and a common one, at least among those of us truly being conscious of O2 exposure). Another is to add the hops at the tail end of fermentation and then closed transfer to a purged keg.

Aren’t there people on this site making killer beers with carboys and bottling buckets? How are they not exposing the beer to oxygen? No. Not IPAs with persistent hop character anyway. They may get some but it only lasts a few weeks at best.

And all these brownish IPAs? That's a sure sign of oxidation. A good IPA should not be brownish AT ALL unless you added dark malts to it. If it's an IPA that looks like Newcastle, it is oxidized junk.

 

[Jag75]

If your PH is too high, you will not get good hop utilization. Target PH is 5.2 in the mash. Don't buy the 5.2 PH Stabilizer like I did. If you read the reviews, it doesn't work and adds salt to your beer. Get your water professionally tested.

I think the OP sets up his water profile with Bru N Water

 

[wsmith1625]

I think the OP sets up his water profile with Bru N Water

Yea, I saw that later on. I'm skimming post while at work. LOL!

 

[HB_ATL73]

Have you considered trying Camden tablets when packaging?

Ive recently begun using 0.3 grams crushed during packaging into the keg and it seems to be helping

 

[Cavpilot2000]

This is a prime example of a badly oxidized/ ruined IPA. The brewer said it was 2-row/ Citra SMASH. It should be bright pale yellow.

 

[Steveg229]

I think this sounds more like a water issue to me, than being oxidized. Can you post the recipe you used and maybe a quick description of your process/timeline? What is your water source? treated tap water? chlorine?

Maybe try making the next IPA with RO water and buildup from there? That would confirm if it is a source water issue....

 

[Steven Barrett]

Grains:
4.2 kg 2-row
1.2 kg Rye malt
800 g Maris Otter
400 g Cara-Pils
100 g Rice hulls

Hops:
Green Bullet - 10 g @ 45 min
Nelson Sauvin - 7 g @ 30 min
Green Bullet - 10 g @ 15 min
Nelson Sauvin - 21 g @ 5 min
Green Bullet - 14 g @ 5 min

Nelson Sauvin - 72 g dry-hop for 5 days (in primary)
Green Bullet - 58 g dry-hop for 5 days (in primary)

Misc: 1 Whirlfloc Tab at 5 min

Yeast: US-05 Safale (1 pack, rehydrated)

Mash was 152 F, no sparge. Efficiency was a bit low. Around 65% or so. I usually use campden but we brewed at my buddy’s and I forgot to bring them. I tried to use some LODO methods, preboil and chill mash water, full grain bed some below, minimize splashing, but we lost LODO when our tubing was too wide for the mash tun valve and started sucking in a lot of air.

My water is Chicago which has quarterly published water reports. It’s quite soft water. Only something like Pilsen would require RO to get TDS down even lower. (I have not tested the actual water in my home.)

I am interested in trying RO to see the difference it makes.

The beer is not a horrifying brown. It is quite golden and a bit hazy, despite me fining with gelatin and using a top draw floating dip tube.

Oh and the Nelson Sauvin boil hops were stale, not much aroma and heading towards brown, not bright green, despite still being in the package. (I since got fresh replacement hops from the vendor but the stale ones went into the boil.)

 

[day_trippr]

This is a prime example of a badly oxidized/ ruined IPA. [...]

That's just so nasty...

 

[Steveg229]

The recipe and hop additions look pretty solid. Skipping the campden and the stale hops may have been a contributing factor for this brew.

Have you had similar results with other IPA recipes as well?

Using chicago water, I would recommend filtering and the use of a campden tablet. I have chicago water too but use RO water as I l think it is easier to build up water profiles from scratch. I would try RO water and just add basic additions of calcium chloride and gypsum and see what happens.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I think this sounds more like a water issue to me, than being oxidized.

There could be a water component here, but NOTHING kills hops flavor and aroma faster than oxygen.
Do you ever brew a hoppy beer and it tastes great when fresh, but a few short days or weeks later you feel like it doesn't pop like it used to? That's because the volatile hops compounds have oxidized.
It isn't always so obvious as the "wet cardboard" taste we have always been told is the staple of oxidation. It manifests itself in other ways including darkening/browning of the beer and loss of hop character.

Oxygen is the enemy of virtually all aspects of any non-living matter. It never ever ever helps, and almost always harms non-living materials.

 

[Steven Barrett]

The recipe and hop additions look pretty solid. Skipping the campden and the stale hops may have been a contributing factor for this brew.

Have you had similar results with other IPA recipes as well?

Using chicago water, I would recommend filtering and the use of a campden tablet. I have chicago water too but use RO water as I l think it is easier to build up water profiles from scratch. I would try RO water and just add basic additions of calcium chloride and gypsum and see what happens.

Yes I’ve generally had the same results with all my IPAs.

Where do you get RO from? Jewel or Mariano’s? How much does it typically cost?

 

[Steven Barrett]

Do you ever brew a hoppy beer and it tastes great when fresh, but a few short weeks later you feel like it doesn't pop like it used to?

My experience is it smells hoppy during fermentation and by the time I am bottling or kegging the aroma is gone completely.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

My experience is it smells hoppy during fermentation and by the time I am bottling or kegging the aroma is gone completely.

Same culprit. The speed at which the aroma and flavor goes away is entirely dependent on the amount of oxygen exposure, so it is mostly process and/or equipment dependent.
Once you pitch your yeast and seal up your fermenter (really the only step of the process where oxygen should be introduced, and the only step where it provides any benefit), your beer should ideally never encounter oxygen again if you can help it.

There is a lot of ongoing discussion about good ways to dry hop without introducing oxygen, and the bottom line is it requires some inventive or expensive equipment to have ZERO O2 intrusion when dry-hopping, but you can eliminate MOST of it with small process adjustments. The simplest adjustment is ALWAYS use purged kegs and a closed-loop transfer (and don't ever open the keg once you put the beer in).

 

[Steveg229]

Yes I’ve generally had the same results with all my IPAs.

Where do you get RO from? Jewel or Mariano’s? How much does it typically cost?

I have my own RO system, but you can buy gallons from most stores for a dollar or so a gallon. Either RO or Distilled water would work.

 

[Steveg229]

My experience is it smells hoppy during fermentation and by the time I am bottling or kegging the aroma is gone completely.

How long do you primary and how soon after dry hopping do you keg?

 

[day_trippr]

My experience is it smells hoppy during fermentation and by the time I am bottling or kegging the aroma is gone completely.

Yup, that ain't anything to do with water. It's oxidation, and it kills hoppy beers the quickest.
Cold-side O2 avoidance is of paramount importance...

Cheers!

 

[Steven Barrett]

Typically I throw the hops in during high krausen. So maybe 3 days into fermentation. I don’t do any secondary. I either transfer to keg, bottle, or in this case, my fermenting keg was my serving keg. On other fermentations I’ve waited until fermentation is complete to dry hop. I’ve dry hopped room temperature and cold. Doesn’t seem to make much difference.

 

[Steven Barrett]

So here’s a question, can I do anything now that it’s oxidized?

One crazy idea: Throw in some amylase and which would break down some more sugars and restart fermentation which could reduce the oxygen content. Simultaneously, dry hop?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Typically I throw the hops in during high krausen. So maybe 3 days into fermentation. I don’t do any secondary. I either transfer to keg, bottle, or in this case, my fermenting keg was my serving keg. On other fermentations I’ve waited until fermentation is complete to dry hop. I’ve dry hopped room temperature and cold. Doesn’t seem to make much difference.

OKay, so next time, try this:

1. Pitch your hops just after high kreusen but while there is still some fermentation.
2. Don't ever open that fermenter to the air again while there is still beer in it.
3. Transfer via closed loop to a purged keg. You can do it by pushing the beer with CO2 if your vessel will support that or you can do it by gravity (from your fermenter into the keg via the "beer out" QD). It is best if you can hook a hose from the gas-out QD to the airlock of the fermenter too. That way the escaping CO2 from the keg goes in to the fermenter in equal volume to the beer flowing out, so you don't suck outside air into the fermenter as it drains.

If you don't have a fermenter with a spigot or valve (i.e. a carboy or a bucket) you should get one (another keg works too - ferment in one, serve in the other). Worst case If you have to use an autosiphon, make sure the hose from it is going in to the Beer Out QD. That way you aren't opening the lid on the purged keg.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

So here’s a question, can I do anything now that it’s oxidized?

One crazy idea: Throw in some amylase and which would break down some more sugars and restart fermentation which could reduce the oxygen content. Simultaneously, dry hop?

Won't help. The damage is already done. Adding more hops would work as a band-aid, but they too will fade quickly.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Won't help. The damage is already done. Adding more hops would work as a band-aid, but they too will fade quickly.

To clarify, while your suggestion might remove some amount of the oxygen that is dissolved in your beer, the beer has already been oxidized and you can't un-oxidize it anymore than you can un-burn a sheet of paper you lit on fire.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

3. Transfer via closed loop to a purged keg. You can do it by pushing the beer with CO2 if your vessel will support that or you can do it by gravity (from your fermenter into the keg via the "beer out" QD). It is best if you can hook a hose from the gas-out QD to the airlock of the fermenter too. That way the escaping CO2 from the keg goes in to the fermenter in equal volume to the beer flowing out, so you don't suck outside air into the fermenter as it drains.

Since he's fermenting in kegs his closed transfers should be smooth & easy. One of the advantages of using kegs. He just needs to quit opening them. I'll add you should liquid purge the receiving keg, e.g. fill it completely with liquid and push the liquid out. Rather than trying to purge it while empty. There are charts but it takes a lot of CO2 to completely purge an empty keg and most people who do it that way don't even come close to getting there. Something like 25 purge cycles on 30 psi. Which wastes a lot of CO2.

An alternative method I've been trying lately is something I saw a regular here post although it escapes me who it was(mongoose?). He said he filled the kegs mostly full with starsan and then shot CO2 through the liquid tube to make it all bubble out the top, then capped it while it was bubbling. Theoretically using the bubbles to push out the O2. Once it's capped I'll still purge the headspace a couple of times just for the hell of it before I push the starsan out. I like this because I usually have a bucket of starsan laying around and can quickly and easily do this, much faster and less wasteful for me than filling it up with 5 gallons of water then dumping it all out. I don't know if it's as good as a full water purge but I haven't had any noticeable oxidation issues doing it and it saves me time, although at some point I should do a split batch experiment. But I say that about almost everything and never get around to it.

 

[DVCNick]

With a keg as the fermentation vessel, once you get a second keg, you can use the fermentation gas to liquid purge the second keg in prep for the future transfer.

Actually the gas from one 5 gallon batch will be enough to liquid purge a bunch of kegs... don't know exactly how many, but I've done one in like two hours with the beer at high krausen.

What I've been doing lately is just keep one keg full of sanitizer, and when I need a purged keg, just push the sanitizer into a different keg. If I have a batch going in the fermentasaurus I'll use the gas from that; otherwise just use bottle gas, it doesn't take all that much.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Since he's fermenting in kegs his closed transfers should be smooth & easy. One of the advantages of using kegs. He just needs to quit opening them. I'll add you should liquid purge the receiving keg, e.g. fill it completely with liquid and push the liquid out. Rather than trying to purge it while empty. There are charts but it takes a lot of CO2 to completely purge an empty keg and most people who do it that way don't even come close to getting there. Something like 25 purge cycles on 30 psi. Which wastes a lot of CO2.

An alternative method I've been trying lately is something I saw a regular here post although it escapes me who it was(mongoose?). He said he filled the kegs mostly full with starsan and then shot CO2 through the liquid tube to make it all bubble out the top, then capped it while it was bubbling. Theoretically using the bubbles to push out the O2. Once it's capped I'll still purge the headspace a couple of times just for the hell of it before I push the starsan out. I like this because I usually have a bucket of starsan laying around and can quickly and easily do this, much faster and less wasteful for me than filling it up with 5 gallons of water then dumping it all out. I don't know if it's as good as a full water purge but I haven't had any noticeable oxidation issues doing it and it saves me time, although at some point I should do a split batch experiment. But I say that about almost everything and never get around to it.

Yes. I didn't specify how to purge the keg, but filling it with STar-San and then pushing that out with CO2 is Low Oxygen brewing SOP.
I also agree that keg-to-keg is easy, but I think he said he only has one keg.