Uninspiring IPAs

[Steveg229]

My experience is it smells hoppy during fermentation and by the time I am bottling or kegging the aroma is gone completely.

How long do you primary and how soon after dry hopping do you keg?

 

[day_trippr]

My experience is it smells hoppy during fermentation and by the time I am bottling or kegging the aroma is gone completely.

Yup, that ain't anything to do with water. It's oxidation, and it kills hoppy beers the quickest.
Cold-side O2 avoidance is of paramount importance...

Cheers!

 

[Steven Barrett]

Typically I throw the hops in during high krausen. So maybe 3 days into fermentation. I don’t do any secondary. I either transfer to keg, bottle, or in this case, my fermenting keg was my serving keg. On other fermentations I’ve waited until fermentation is complete to dry hop. I’ve dry hopped room temperature and cold. Doesn’t seem to make much difference.

 

[Steven Barrett]

So here’s a question, can I do anything now that it’s oxidized?

One crazy idea: Throw in some amylase and which would break down some more sugars and restart fermentation which could reduce the oxygen content. Simultaneously, dry hop?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Typically I throw the hops in during high krausen. So maybe 3 days into fermentation. I don’t do any secondary. I either transfer to keg, bottle, or in this case, my fermenting keg was my serving keg. On other fermentations I’ve waited until fermentation is complete to dry hop. I’ve dry hopped room temperature and cold. Doesn’t seem to make much difference.

OKay, so next time, try this:

1. Pitch your hops just after high kreusen but while there is still some fermentation.
2. Don't ever open that fermenter to the air again while there is still beer in it.
3. Transfer via closed loop to a purged keg. You can do it by pushing the beer with CO2 if your vessel will support that or you can do it by gravity (from your fermenter into the keg via the "beer out" QD). It is best if you can hook a hose from the gas-out QD to the airlock of the fermenter too. That way the escaping CO2 from the keg goes in to the fermenter in equal volume to the beer flowing out, so you don't suck outside air into the fermenter as it drains.

If you don't have a fermenter with a spigot or valve (i.e. a carboy or a bucket) you should get one (another keg works too - ferment in one, serve in the other). Worst case If you have to use an autosiphon, make sure the hose from it is going in to the Beer Out QD. That way you aren't opening the lid on the purged keg.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

So here’s a question, can I do anything now that it’s oxidized?

One crazy idea: Throw in some amylase and which would break down some more sugars and restart fermentation which could reduce the oxygen content. Simultaneously, dry hop?

Won't help. The damage is already done. Adding more hops would work as a band-aid, but they too will fade quickly.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Won't help. The damage is already done. Adding more hops would work as a band-aid, but they too will fade quickly.

To clarify, while your suggestion might remove some amount of the oxygen that is dissolved in your beer, the beer has already been oxidized and you can't un-oxidize it anymore than you can un-burn a sheet of paper you lit on fire.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

3. Transfer via closed loop to a purged keg. You can do it by pushing the beer with CO2 if your vessel will support that or you can do it by gravity (from your fermenter into the keg via the "beer out" QD). It is best if you can hook a hose from the gas-out QD to the airlock of the fermenter too. That way the escaping CO2 from the keg goes in to the fermenter in equal volume to the beer flowing out, so you don't suck outside air into the fermenter as it drains.

Since he's fermenting in kegs his closed transfers should be smooth & easy. One of the advantages of using kegs. He just needs to quit opening them. I'll add you should liquid purge the receiving keg, e.g. fill it completely with liquid and push the liquid out. Rather than trying to purge it while empty. There are charts but it takes a lot of CO2 to completely purge an empty keg and most people who do it that way don't even come close to getting there. Something like 25 purge cycles on 30 psi. Which wastes a lot of CO2.

An alternative method I've been trying lately is something I saw a regular here post although it escapes me who it was(mongoose?). He said he filled the kegs mostly full with starsan and then shot CO2 through the liquid tube to make it all bubble out the top, then capped it while it was bubbling. Theoretically using the bubbles to push out the O2. Once it's capped I'll still purge the headspace a couple of times just for the hell of it before I push the starsan out. I like this because I usually have a bucket of starsan laying around and can quickly and easily do this, much faster and less wasteful for me than filling it up with 5 gallons of water then dumping it all out. I don't know if it's as good as a full water purge but I haven't had any noticeable oxidation issues doing it and it saves me time, although at some point I should do a split batch experiment. But I say that about almost everything and never get around to it.

 

[DVCNick]

With a keg as the fermentation vessel, once you get a second keg, you can use the fermentation gas to liquid purge the second keg in prep for the future transfer.

Actually the gas from one 5 gallon batch will be enough to liquid purge a bunch of kegs... don't know exactly how many, but I've done one in like two hours with the beer at high krausen.

What I've been doing lately is just keep one keg full of sanitizer, and when I need a purged keg, just push the sanitizer into a different keg. If I have a batch going in the fermentasaurus I'll use the gas from that; otherwise just use bottle gas, it doesn't take all that much.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Since he's fermenting in kegs his closed transfers should be smooth & easy. One of the advantages of using kegs. He just needs to quit opening them. I'll add you should liquid purge the receiving keg, e.g. fill it completely with liquid and push the liquid out. Rather than trying to purge it while empty. There are charts but it takes a lot of CO2 to completely purge an empty keg and most people who do it that way don't even come close to getting there. Something like 25 purge cycles on 30 psi. Which wastes a lot of CO2.

An alternative method I've been trying lately is something I saw a regular here post although it escapes me who it was(mongoose?). He said he filled the kegs mostly full with starsan and then shot CO2 through the liquid tube to make it all bubble out the top, then capped it while it was bubbling. Theoretically using the bubbles to push out the O2. Once it's capped I'll still purge the headspace a couple of times just for the hell of it before I push the starsan out. I like this because I usually have a bucket of starsan laying around and can quickly and easily do this, much faster and less wasteful for me than filling it up with 5 gallons of water then dumping it all out. I don't know if it's as good as a full water purge but I haven't had any noticeable oxidation issues doing it and it saves me time, although at some point I should do a split batch experiment. But I say that about almost everything and never get around to it.

Yes. I didn't specify how to purge the keg, but filling it with STar-San and then pushing that out with CO2 is Low Oxygen brewing SOP.
I also agree that keg-to-keg is easy, but I think he said he only has one keg.

 

[Steveg229]

I agree that controlling oxygen exposure is crucial, but I have a hard time believing that all of the OP's IPA attempts have been lacking hop aroma and flavor due to oxidation. If the hoppiness was diminishing rapidly over a few weeks I would agree that oxidation was the issue here, but it seems this is immediate from day 1... thoughts?

 

[Robert65]

Yes. I didn't specify how to purge the keg, but filling it with STar-San and then pushing that out with CO2 is Low Oxygen brewing SOP.
I also agree that keg-to-keg is easy, but I think he said he only has one keg.

For "low oxygen SOP," I would suggest a low foaming sanitizer, i.e. iodophor. Or maybe Saniclean if you're not concerned with about the potential flavor impact. Star San is high foam, and foam = bubbles full of air. My $0.02.

 

[mattdee1]

I would try RO water and just add basic additions of calcium chloride and gypsum and see what happens.

^^ yes

I agree that the main issue here affecting hop aroma is cold side oxygen exposure, but when trying to troubleshoot and improve any beer for any reason, it seems crazy to me to embark on such an exercise without doing everything you can to strictly control your water. I mean, low hanging fruit and all that.

It doesn't require any special techniques or equipment - you just need to spend a few bucks on some water and use it. In doing so, you've controlled more variables and can further isolate the IPA issues you want to nail down. You're free to go back to tap water later if you like, but I strongly doubt you'll want to after you try RO.

 

[marchuk96]

Grains:
4.2 kg 2-row
1.2 kg Rye malt
800 g Maris Otter
400 g Cara-Pils
100 g Rice hulls

Hops:
Green Bullet - 10 g @ 45 min
Nelson Sauvin - 7 g @ 30 min
Green Bullet - 10 g @ 15 min
Nelson Sauvin - 21 g @ 5 min
Green Bullet - 14 g @ 5 min

Nelson Sauvin - 72 g dry-hop for 5 days (in primary)
Green Bullet - 58 g dry-hop for 5 days (in primary)

Misc: 1 Whirlfloc Tab at 5 min

Yeast: US-05 Safale (1 pack, rehydrated)

Mash was 152 F, no sparge. Efficiency was a bit low. Around 65% or so. I usually use campden but we brewed at my buddy’s and I forgot to bring them. I tried to use some LODO methods, preboil and chill mash water, full grain bed some below, minimize splashing, but we lost LODO when our tubing was too wide for the mash tun valve and started sucking in a lot of air.

My water is Chicago which has quarterly published water reports. It’s quite soft water. Only something like Pilsen would require RO to get TDS down even lower. (I have not tested the actual water in my home.)

I am interested in trying RO to see the difference it makes.

The beer is not a horrifying brown. It is quite golden and a bit hazy, despite me fining with gelatin and using a top draw floating dip tube.

Oh and the Nelson Sauvin boil hops were stale, not much aroma and heading towards brown, not bright green, despite still being in the package. (I since got fresh replacement hops from the vendor but the stale ones went into the boil.)

Here's my 2¢...

I think you def need to try to either a) get your water tested or b) start using distilled or r/o water...either way you know what your working with...and then you can build from there...

In converting grams to ounces...you used a total of around 7.5 ounces or so of hops total...consider uping the total to the 10-12 oz range...while the amount you used is fine...I think the sweetest spot for IPA is within that 10-12 oz range for 5 gallons

Start whirlpooling some hops...this is one of the best techniques you can use to help up your flavor and aroma profiles...target at minimal 4 oz.

Drop all hop additions before 5 minutes and shift them to under 5 minutes...if you need or want higher ibus you can add a small charge at 60 mins of 1 hop like Columbus or Magnum and then hold all other additions to 5 mins left or less...10 mins at the absolute earliest...

Pick a better yeast....while S05 is a great base yeast...it has little ester production...try a yeast that has a higher ester production profile to help enhance the hop character...drive the temp on it to its highest limit to help with ester production

Dry hop as late as possible...I wait till about 3-4 days before I keg to add dry hops...then a second charge a day after the first one goes in...this will give you that out of the bag aroma and enhance percieved flavor...

Lastly...LIMIT O2 EXPOSURE...[emoji482]

 

[Jtvann]

Here's my 2¢...

I think you def need to try to either a) get your water tested or b) start using distilled or r/o water...either way you know what your working with...and then you can build from there...

In converting grams to ounces...you used a total of around 7.5 ounces or so of hops total...consider uping the total to the 10-12 oz range...while the amount you used is fine...I think the sweetest spot for IPA is within that 10-12 oz range for 5 gallons

Start whirlpooling some hops...this is one of the best techniques you can use to help up your flavor and aroma profiles...target at minimal 4 oz.

Drop all hop additions before 5 minutes and shift them to under 5 minutes...if you need or want higher ibus you can add a small charge at 60 mins of 1 hop like Columbus or Magnum and then hold all other additions to 5 mins left or less...10 mins at the absolute earliest...

Pick a better yeast....while S05 is a great base yeast...it has little ester production...try a yeast that has a higher ester production profile to help enhance the hop character...drive the temp on it to its highest limit to help with ester production

Dry hop as late as possible...I wait till about 3-4 days before I keg to add dry hops...then a second charge a day after the first one goes in...this will give you that out of the bag around and enhance percieved flavor...

Lastly...LIMIT O2 EXPOSURE...[emoji482]

Your advice is pretty spot on for a NEIPA. Really good advice for a NEIPA. Neipas are really good beers if that's what your intending to make.

After your first paragraph, I disagree with literally everything else you have to say if you are talking about a traditional IPA.

7.5 oz is perfect for a 5 gallon traditional IPA
Whirlpool is really popular for neipa and while some IPAs can benefit from it, plain ol flame out hops work great. Drop hop additions below 5 mins? No, No, No. Feel free to use them at 60, 45, 30, 15, 10, 5 or zero. There are more traditional timings, but any of those are fine. I'd encourage more in the 15 range. Hops can be and are useful for more than 60 min additions, whirlpooling and dry hopping. Again, NEIPAs are great beers, but please for the sake of history, do not confuse them with traditional IPAs. They are not. They are also not brewed the same way.

Pick a better yeast than S-05!?! Whisky Tango Foxtrot man. That is literally the dry version of the most well known go to yeast of all time for IPAs. You're not looking for punch you in the face ester formation in a traditional IPA ... again its not a neipa.

I go back to my original statement. People have forgotten what an IPA is.


Edit: I feel like this right now ...
https://images.app.goo.gl/GsZuYbWUeYR5zrex9

 

[marchuk96]

Your advice is pretty spot on for a NEIPA. Really good advice for a NEIPA. Neipas are really good beers if that's what your intending to make.

After your first paragraph, I disagree with literally everything else you have to say if you are talking about a traditional IPA.

7.5 oz is perfect for a 5 gallon traditional IPA
Whirlpool is really popular for neipa and while some IPAs can benefit from it, plain ol flame out hops work great. Drop hop additions below 5 mins? No, No, No. Feel free to use them at 60, 45, 30, 15, 10, 5 or zero. There are more traditional timings, but any of those are fine. I'd encourage more in the 15 range. Hops can be and are useful for more than 60 min additions, whirlpooling and dry hopping. Again, NEIPAs are great beers, but please for the sake of history, do not confuse them with traditional IPAs. They are not. They are also not brewed the same way.

Pick a better yeast than S-05!?! Whisky Tango Foxtrot man. That is literally the dry version of the most well known go to yeast of all time for IPAs. You're not looking for punch you in the face ester formation in a traditional IPA ... again its not a neipa.

I go back to my original statement. People have forgotten what an IPA is.

My apologies...I probably should have asked that question first huh...new england or non new england??...I just assumed..but i still think what I mentioned can still be applied..just not on the new england scale if the intent is just IPA...a small whirlpool will help and certainly later boil hops if your wanting more aroma on your beer which is what the original issue was...without adding more hops which you seemed to be opposed to doing which is fine...the only thing to do is shift hops around to favor more aroma and flavor and use a yeast that will produce a bit more esters to help with aromatics and flavor..but before that happens maybe just focus on the water and O2 pick up...then on hops and timing...and then yeast...

 

[Jtvann]

This is an all time low. "Non new england"

 

[marchuk96]

This is an all time low. "Non new england"

Lol...would you prefer west coast IPA..or just IPA?

 

[Steven Barrett]

As OP, I am trying to brew a classic west coast IPA. Not Pliny 100+ IBU but 70 IBU or so. And a clear or mostly clear beer, so the dry hopping can’t be absurd.

 

[marchuk96]

As OP, I am trying to brew a classic west coast IPA. Not Pliny 100+ IBU but 70 IBU or so. And a clear or mostly clear beer, so the dry hopping can’t be absurd.

OK so now that we have cleared the air there...your dry hop amount looks good man...take what I mentioned with a grain of salt...pick one thing tweak it till your happy and then move on to the next...I think a whirlpool will benefit you the most in the long run...and it doesn't have to be massive... west coast guys are whirlpooling hops and in decent quantities...

 

[Cavpilot2000]

For "low oxygen SOP," I would suggest a low foaming sanitizer, i.e. iodophor. Or maybe Saniclean if you're not concerned with about the potential flavor impact. Star San is high foam, and foam = bubbles full of air. My $0.02.

True that low foaming is ideal, but most brewers have Star San on hand. Most don’t have the others unless they have a specific reason to have it. I have used Star San many times for this procedure, but the trick is fill with water first, THEN add the Star San to the full keg. No water spraying/ splashing= no foam. Once you seal it up, turn it upside down once or twice and voila - it’s mixed with no foam.

 

[Robert65]

True that low foaming is ideal, but most brewers have Star San on hand. Most don’t have the others unless they have a specific reason to have it. I have used Star San many times for this procedure, but the trick is fill with water first, THEN add the Star San to the full keg. No water spraying/ splashing= no foam. Once you seal it up, turn it upside down once or twice and voila - it’s mixed with no foam.

My only objection to that would be, if you have to mix a batch specifically for each keg purge and discard, iodophor is way cheaper. One reason iodophor is my primary sanitizer. But you've got a perfectly viable.... wait, why do I feel like saying vector, Victor? [emoji6]

 

[day_trippr]

"Roger, Houston. This is Roger Houston"

 

[Cavpilot2000]

My only objection to that would be, if you have to mix a batch specifically for each keg purge and discard, iodophor is way cheaper. One reason iodophor is my primary sanitizer. But you've got a perfectly viable.... wait, why do I feel like saying vector, Victor? [emoji6]

Good point.
I usually use saniclean, but have been using Star San lately with procedure as described because I’m out of Saniclean and have been lazy about getting more. I have been doing a batch per keg, which is wasteful, no doubt.
I have iodophors but never use it because I am paranoid about residual iodine flavor, though my paranoia is likely misplaced and unfounded.

Now can I get a clearance, Clarence?

 

[grampamark]

Now can I get a clearance, Clarence?

OK, but stop calling me Shirley.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I just use plain old water when I do the full liquid purge. I have a bucket of Starsan that I use for awhile before replacing so I'll sanitize the keg then empty the Starsan, then fill with water and purge. If you're worried about bubbles that would solve that problem. It's not like it's your fermenter, you're filling it with beer with alcohol. And most people's tap water is pretty sanitary, remember when we used to top off our partial boil extract batches with it?

 

[Jag75]

Yea, I saw that later on. I'm skimming post while at work. LOL!

Glad I'm not the only one who does that lol....shhhhh our lil secret

 

[mattdee1]

This is an all time low. "Non new england"

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/retronym

 

[WestMichBrewer]

I use a carboy for fermentation and 3 gallon pin-lock kegs.
How much oxidation is occurring in this process:

After fermentation, cold crashing done allowing air to suck back in.
Transfer to keg with standard siphon.
Seal keg
Attach CO2 to liquid-out post and push CO2 up through the beer.
Purge whatever comes out of the gas-in post.
Repeat gas/purge 2 more times.
Attach C02 to gas-in post and pressurize for carbonation and later serving.

I didn't think too much air would go in during cold crash, nor would it replace all the CO2 from fermentation.
Transfer does swirl a bit, but is pretty slow...how much damage is being done here?
I thought my purging process was pretty good, but hard to tell I guess.

Of these I think the easiest to fix without more equipment is the cold crash suck-back with a well-timed balloon attachment.

 

[day_trippr]

After fermentation, cold crashing done allowing air to suck back in.

For a brew with lots of dry hops, that's all it takes.
Add in the open keg transfer and an neipa would be a browned mess very quickly...

Cheers!