Unidentifiable off flavors

[chipwitch]

This may be a fool's folly, but I'm trying to find out if someone can help me identify what's wrong with my ales. The first 4 all have it. It seems a little less noticible the more recent the beer. All were done within about 2 weeks of each other. If anything, it seems to be getting a little better with age, but not much. There's a flavor, that I don't like but can't describe. A couple of friends have tried it (I don't know any homebrewers except my local store). They can taste it, don't care for it but like me, can't describe it. I've searched numerous threads for "off flavors" and I dont' think it tastes like any of them... horse sweat, sour, butter, bitter, wet cardboard, medicine, band-aid, alcohol etc. It hits you on the finish.

The first two are kits from Northern Brewer and were brewed within a week of receiving, so I think it's safe to rule out old ingredients. All were liquid extract bought on different occasions. 3 from NB and one from my LHBS, a special order 33lb Breiss jug. All were golden malt except one had some maris otter as well. All were partial boils. I've only ever used Star-san for sanitation. One was on the stove. The rest on a propane burner. All were different strains of dry yeast (fresh Safeale or Wyeast) but one which was purchased local, Wyeast abbey and was only like 6 weeks old. I've since made some other beers that I don't detect the flavor. If all my beer will taste like this... I'll be looking for a new hobby. Also, the beer styles.... Karl's ninety shilling, Belgian Dubbel, Irish Red and a Strong Dark Ale. As you can see I prefer malty beers.

One reason I suspect partial boil is that the first batch I made, I didn't account for evaporation. Lost more than I expected. Using a 4 gallon pot, I'm guessing there may have been as little as 2.5 gallons of liquid at the end of the boil. I was careful in all cases to dissolve the extract off the burner. In at least one case, I dissolved the extract before heating. After the first brew, I tried to get as much water in the pot as possible. The last two, I would add a cup or so of water during the boil every few minutes... not enough to cool it down, but enough to replenish the evaporate.

Also, the first couple, I may have rushed the bottling a little but the last two were in the fermenter for a month to six weeks. Could this be the lees? I've had commercial ales that are bottle conditioned, on lees and love them... I don't taste anything "off." However, I don't cold crash and maybe I have excess lees? I haven't noticed any huge amounts of sediment or anything.

I don't have great temp control, but my house is a constant 74F. Since I've stuck with Safeale 05, and 04 and Wyeast's Abbaye ale for dry and a belgian dubbel liquid, I wouldn't think that temperature would be a huge concern.

I did take a bottle of my Karl's ninety to my lhbs. A few people tried it. No one said anything bad about it, but the clerk swears it's how its supposed to taste. I don't buy it. When pressed for more input, he acted like he didn't want to be bothered. The other people who tasted it kept silent. I think they were just being kind. It was obvious they didn't care for it.

I know it's hard to advise without being able to taste it, but I'm hoping someone will have had a similar experience and can enlighten me?

 

[MagicMatt]

I don't have great temp control, but my house is a constant 74F. Since I've stuck with Safeale 05, and 04 and Wyeast's Abbaye ale for dry and a belgian dubbel liquid, I wouldn't think that temperature would be a huge concern.

I'd say this is a huge red flag to me. If you're fermenting with ambient temps of 74°F, then your actual beer temp will be somewhere in the 85°F-90°F range.

Fermentation is an exothermic process, so it will actually generate it's own heat. Without cooling, the temperature of the fermentation increases as much as 15°F, to the point where if the temps were already near the upper end of the acceptable range, the character of the final product is adversely affected. Most yeasts like a temp range of 65-68°F, though sometimes you'll find a wider range of say 60-75°F. Even with the yeast you're using, the upper end is around 77°F. There's very little chance your beer will be able to stay that low, and even so that's at the extreme for the yeast (i.e. not really what you should be aiming for).

Fermentation temps are crucial to producing consistently great beer. I'd start there and see if the off-tastes disappear.

 

[m00ps]

I don't have great temp control, but my house is a constant 74F. Since I've stuck with Safeale 05, and 04 and Wyeast's Abbaye ale for dry and a belgian dubbel liquid, I wouldn't think that temperature would be a huge concern.

Way too hot for any non-belgian beer. Im guessing its that, or something with your water

 

[chipwitch]

I realize it isn't ideal, but I used a laser IR thermometer to read the outside temp of the plastic fermenter (middle side). Periodic checks have never indicated anything above a couple degrees above ambient. I know that's surface temperature, but shouldn't it be close? Isn't that essentially what the color bars are on some fermenters?

 

[chipwitch]

It seems temperature is commonly cited as a cause for off flavors. But how much can off flavors (besides fruity esters) be caused by it? The reason I ask is that I read this experiment. http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/12/11/fermentation-temperature-experiment-results/ which studied up to 86F with fair results. I'm not trying to be contrary. Just trying to understand the theory. If everyone always ferments in the 60's, how is it determined that temperature is the cause? Aside for fruity of course.

Water? Maybe... I'm using tap water. Which we have some of the best water in the state. consistently rated high. Florida isn't known for good water, but we have an aquafir down about 200 feet that is good. Our water supply is then mixed with water taken from shallower wells to reintroduce the minerals. I've never been able to locate a detailed profile, but my LHBS swears everyone here has good luck with it... for whatever that's worth. I run it through an activated charcoal filter for beer... now I use k-meta. Though, I've used straight tap, untreated for my wine which is good.

 

[m00ps]

yeah, the actual temp of the wort will be a few degrees hotter than the outside of the fermentor. The outside of the fermentor will be a few (or several in early fermentation) degrees hotter than ambient The problem is, even your ambient is like 10 degrees too high. To get nice clean beers with stuff like US-05, youd need am ambient of like 62F at most. That, or set the thermostat to 68F and use a wet t-shirt swamp cooler setup

 

[m00ps]

That study was using a belgian ale yeast. They are really the only type of yeast that dont produce offensive flavors past 70F

 

[Jsamp]

74* is way too high to ferment at.

 

[Ski12568]

You can rule out the water by brewing a batch with RO water and see if the off flavor is still there.

 

[Ski12568]

Do all the beers look the same color wise?

 

[IslandLizard]

As said before, it's very important to keep your fermentation temps in check and toward the lower side of the temp range for the yeast you're using. Definitely for the first 3-5 days, sometimes longer. It can be left 3-5 degrees higher for the rest of the fermentation. Leave the beer in the primary vessel for 2-3 weeks (sometimes longer) to condition out. Yeast is still actively cleaning up, making better beer for you. Omit secondaries, they are not needed (some exceptions noted).

Also, don't boil all your extract, and definitely not when doing partial boils. Too much malt (gravity) in the wort causes excessive caramelization and potential scorching. Add only enough malt extract to get a 1.030-1.040 wort, boil that for an hour with your bittering hops and do your other regular timed hop additions. Then when the boil is done, turn the flame off, and add the rest of the malt, and stir well, making sure it's all dissolved completely.

At that point, when all is dissolved, if the temp of the wort is lower than 165°F heat up very slowly with continuous stirring until it reaches that temp, and turn the heat off. Let it sit for 10 minutes (stir occasionally) to pasteurize the wort. Then chill down to pitching temps.

Other hints:

• Don't use hopped extracts, they can have a nasty flavor.
• Use good sanitation for everything that touches your chilled wort/beer.
• Read: How to Brew or get the book.
• Read HBT, educate yourself about brewing better beer.

 

[Mexibilly]

Try one with RO water from the grocery store, but do everything else identically.
Refills are .39/gal here if you have a jug. It sounds like you have multiple carboys or buckets, so go buy enough for a complete brew day.
If your issue isn't temp I bet it's water.

 

[chipwitch]

That study was using a belgian ale yeast. They are really the only type of yeast that dont produce offensive flavors past 70F

Okay. Going on that assumption, then what about Safbrew Abbaye yeast? Or Wyeast 1762? Would you expect them to have the same off flavor?

 

[chipwitch]

Do all the beers look the same color wise?

No. I didn't expect that question. Why would that matter? They are all dark-ish... by choice. In my un-expert assessment, I'd say they were the approximate color they should have been. The Irish Red could have been a little more red. The ninety shilling is dark, but not porter dark. The dubbel was on the light side of porter. The belgian strong was like a porter. Is that what you mean? That's more shade than color?

 

[m00ps]

Okay. Going on that assumption, then what about Safbrew Abbaye yeast? Or Wyeast 1762? Would you expect them to have the same off flavor?

Both of those will work fine. But its usually best to pitch into wort thats a bit cooler than you are shooting for. I ferment my saisons to 90F, but still pitch in the mid 60s. You may get some hot flavors from starting too high

 

[chipwitch]

As said before, it's very important to keep your fermentation temps in check and toward the lower side of the temp range for the yeast you're using. Definitely for the first 3-5 days, sometimes longer. It can be left 3-5 degrees higher for the rest of the fermentation. Leave the beer in the primary vessel for 2-3 weeks (sometimes longer) to condition out. Yeast is still actively cleaning up, making better beer for you. Omit secondaries, they are not needed (some exceptions noted).

Also, don't boil all your extract, and definitely not when doing partial boils. Too much malt (gravity) in the wort causes excessive caramelization and potential scorching. Add only enough malt extract to get a 1.030-1.040 wort, boil that for an hour with your bittering hops and do your other regular timed hop additions. Then when the boil is done, turn the flame off, and add the rest of the malt, and stir well, making sure it's all dissolved completely.

At that point, when all is dissolved, if the temp of the wort is lower than 165°F heat up very slowly with continuous stirring until it reaches that temp, and turn the heat off. Let it sit for 10 minutes (stir occasionally) to pasteurize the wort. Then chill down to pitching temps.

Other hints:

• Don't use hopped extracts, they can have a nasty flavor.
• Use good sanitation for everything that touches your chilled wort/beer.
• Read: How to Brew or get the book.
• Read HBT, educate yourself about brewing better beer.

My first brew was a kit. They did a late addition as part of the recipe which I followed. It also introduced me to the concept. I read more about it and made sure to do it for subsequent brews so they all had late additions, using only some malt for the full term to help with hop extraction. Though, I didn't do it after flame out. It was added 10 minutes prior.

Leaving the beer in the fermenter longer is something I did on the last two brews thinking that might be the problem... as you suggested.

 

[Ski12568]

When I made my first couple extract batches, one was a red ale and one was a witbier. They both looked similar, darker than expected, and had the same off taste. I came to the conclusion that the extract was old. I made them soon after receiving them, but I don't know how long they sat around the store. This happened a third time trying to make an extract pale ale, came out way darker than normal and had that same "homebrew" taste. I didn't know what else to call it. I bought that extract from my LHBS and they store it room temp (AZ).

If you try the RO water and the taste is still there, next time try using dry malt extract, it stores longer than the liquid.

 

[chipwitch]

Both of those will work fine. But its usually best to pitch into wort thats a bit cooler than you are shooting for. I ferment my saisons to 90F, but still pitch in the mid 60s. You may get some hot flavors from starting too high

I wouldn't describe the flavors as "hot" (alcohol?). Green? Maybe. Again... I'm ust not sure what that is. I've never tasted a sample where anyone said, "Here, this is a 'green' beer." But, the first brew is now about 3 months in the bottle. It woultn't still be green?

I only just got an immersion chiller. So, my previous method for chilling, method used on brews in question, was to pour gently onto 3 8lb ice chunks in the fermenter (sanitized containers, filtered water). This would generally drop the temperature of the wort to 60 or less. Then I'd wait a couple hours until the yeast and wort were close in temperature before pitching. 65 or so. I don't think that's it.

I really have tried to do everything I could think of. Obviously, I'm doing SOMETHING wrong.

 

[chipwitch]

When I made my first couple extract batches, one was a red ale and one was a witbier. They both looked similar, darker than expected, and had the same off taste. I came to the conclusion that the extract was old. I made them soon after receiving them, but I don't know how long they sat around the store. This happened a third time trying to make an extract pale ale, came out way darker than normal and had that same "homebrew" taste. I didn't know what else to call it. I bought that extract from my LHBS and they store it room temp (AZ).

If you try the RO water and the taste is still there, next time try using dry malt extract, it stores longer than the liquid.

I'll give that a try. But, again, I have a hard time believing it's the water. I site my wines for example... Also, I have made some beers with the same water without the taste. It's just the first four that is pronounced. Since the malt was common (golden) from Northern Brewer, i can't imagine it was old. That was the first two batches, kits. The next one was my own recipe from Briess off the shelf at my LHBS. I could see an argument that that one could be old. I don't know their turn over though I think it's high. They get a lot of traffic. Being in unmarked generic half gallon containers tells me they're pouring their own and marking up. That one could be old. But, then I had them special order a jug for me. It was a sealed 33 lb jug, sealed. Came right off the truck. Had to wait almost a month before the shipment came in since they order only monthly. I'm sure that one's fresh. Just seems odd that given the random nature of the purchases I could have my first four batches old stock?

 

[Mismost]

I've only been doing this about year and still just LME and a mini mash...but I had what I could only define as a "line of taste" in all my beers....not good, not bad, but dang sure there!

Brewed one of the same beers with RO water...the "line" was gone. Then started do late LME additions, beer got better.

I've since put together a freezer and temp controls and will use that on my next batches.

The arm bone is connected to elbow...everything needs to work together. I am just trying to put all the puzzle in the right spots!

 

[sky4meplease]

Sorry if I missed it somewhere in the thread but can you give some examples of starting and finished gravity?

 

[thaefathan]

OP, how are you treating the yeast? Do you pitch enough, and do you rehydrate it?
http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-pitch-rates.cfm

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] They can taste it, don't care for it but like me, can't describe it. [...]

Extract beer can have a character that's hard to describe. It's a certain residual syrupy sweetness that tastes like nothing else, and probably comes from the process that produces malt extract. People refer to this as "extract twang." It's in the aftertaste and can leave an astringency-like mouthfeel as well. The twang seems to be more pronounced when using LME rather than DME. The more curious thing is, DME is produced from LME, in a final process.

[...] I've since made some other beers that I don't detect the flavor. [...]

What beers were those? Did you do anything differently?

[...] the last two were in the fermenter for a month to six weeks.[...]

Are those the beers you said that were slightly better?

4-6 weeks is about the limit to leave beer on the yeast cake. It should not cause off flavors during that time, generally. Some stalled or slow finishing beers remain on the cake that long. Autolysis may set in after longer times and leave Marmite or Soy Sauce like aromas and flavors. This is a gradual process of course. I noticed it happening after 3 months.

More notes and questions:
Do you use steeping grains?

As said before, your water may be the culprit. You said you treat with k-meta to remove chlorine and chloramines. How much do you use, a 1/4 crushed Campden tablet or 1/32 of a teaspoon of powder per 5 gallons of water? Stirred well?

Do you use a water softener or other water treatment?

I would definitely brew your next batch with 100% RO water, just to eliminate the water variable for now.

And/or, if you have the capabilities, brew a small (1-3 gallon) 100% all grain batch with RO water, no extract, and see if you like it better. You can mash in a large pot in a luke warm oven (150-160°F).

On a side note, US-05 and S-04 have a distinct flavor profile, and the higher fermentation temps bring that forward. I don't care for US-05/WLP001,WY1056, there are better yeasts (liquid).

 

[joshesmusica]

I don't buy the water idea at all.

74F is way too high for those yeasts. I'm almost betting it's the temperature.

Look into what's called a swamp cooler if you don't have the resources to get a temperature controller and some kind of fermentation chamber.

That source you cited with the ferment temp experiment was 1) a fruity belgian strain, and 2) you can see that the sections that was clearly worse with higher temps than the optimal range (the middle one for that strain), were fruity, green apple, thin/watery, and yeasty/soapy. Those things only get worse for a strain that's meant to ferment in the mid-60s.

US-05's ideal range is 59-71.6. So you started out (meaning exothermic heat's gonna make it go even higher), already about 2 degrees outside of its ideal range.

S-04's ideal range is 59-68. So you started out 6F higher than the top of the ideal range!

These yeasts will produce pretty much the same types of off-flavors at the warmer temps. Fruity, green apple, thin/watery (which is a big one since yours are meant to be malt-forward), and yeasty/soapy. If one of those specifically doesn't describe the off-flavor it's likely because it's a combination of the above.

During the time when you see lots of bubbles coming from the airlock, you should be aiming for an ambient room temp of 60-62F. Once the activity starts to slow down, you can begin allowing it to gradually raise up to 70-72. This will help encourage the yeast to finish strong; meaning attenuate fully, and to clean up some of those esters (fruity) and acetaldehydes (green apple), and to drop clear. If you can't cold crash, that's the important thing to avoid those yeasty flavors. Make sure you wait until the beers are dropping clear, otherwise there's tons of yeast still in suspension. (By the way, in the beer homebrewing world, we don't use the term "lees" really.)

For your malt-forward beers, I would go 3-4 weeks in the fermenter, then 6-8 weeks bottle conditioning, with the first 3 weeks being at room temperature to carbonate fully, and the last 3-5 weeks being at cellar temps.

The three most important things to get down before trying to diagnose any other problems are: 1) full control over proper sanitation methods, 2) pitching the proper amount of healthy, viable yeast, and 3) temperature control during fermentation. Even with extract you can make good beer if you've got those three down for sure.

 

[ballsy]

OP's description is not reminiscent of yeast fermenting too high....to the OP, is it a bit of weird bitterness on the back end of each sip? Almost like a bitter green apple, a little astringent but not too overly so (I.e.-doesn't make you look like you just ate a sour warhead?) Oddly enough, I brewed a NB extract kit recently and got this same taste and I am attributing it to the friggin LME. I did nothing different than I have done for 3 yrs (other than order an extract kit bc I was lazy and didn't have time for my usual AG) and it is a nasty end result with that damn twang on the back end of each sip...never happened with ultra light extract which is what I always used before....Try brewing one of those but instead of the kit, order ultra light extract (keep with late addition at flame out) and get the colors and flavors from the specialty grains. Additionally, use campden tablets b/c some of the flavor you're describing could be from chloramines. I'd be willing to bet you do those things and you will end up with a whole different tasting beer.
NB told me I should not have done late extract addition and should have used RO water....their reasoning is b/c the extraction process "leaves salts behind in the extract which combine with the mineral composition of your tap water and could affect the end product"....which to me doesn't make sense if I had made a bunch of good extract batches prior to this using ultra light extract....although maybe the ultra light extract has less salts left behind in it?? That being said, if it were the case then brewing with RO water and not using ultra light extract might be the same as brewing with tap water and using the ultra light?
Yes, you're fermenting temps could use improvement for sure and would most likely result in even better beer than your good batches you've done, but I don't think it's what is causing your issue.

 

[chipwitch]

Sorry if I missed it somewhere in the thread but can you give some examples of starting and finished gravity?

All have been between 1.06 and about 1.07 roughly. Maybe a little less. Final gravities were higher than I expected. I think the highest finish was around 1.018. Lowest probably around 1.012

And... no, you didn't miss it

 

[chipwitch]

OP, how are you treating the yeast? Do you pitch enough, and do you rehydrate it?
http://www.wyeastlab.com/com-pitch-rates.cfm

Good questions. Admittedly, I hadn't heard about pitching rates initially... Coming from wine, one 5 gram pkt is enough for up to 10 gallons. They don't talk about pitch rates. I started realizing the difference with beer I'd say after my second brew, but still didn't apply great practices from a position of knowledge. Looking back, I know a little about it now. I certainly didn't overpitch.

Three were dry yeast, 11g pkts. 1 was a large smack pack. If you know anything about wine making, they often talk about making a starter, which I do. I was conflating wine starters with beer and they are NOT the same as I eventually learned. Wine starters are glorified rehydrations. A cup of water, a spoonful of sugar and some yeast nutrient.

So, all the yeasts were rehydrated as per instructions, though I may have made the first one with a little sugar like a wine starter. The 1 smack pack was pitched straight. No starter.

 

[chipwitch]

Extract beer can have a character that's hard to describe. It's a certain residual syrupy sweetness that tastes like nothing else, and probably comes from the process that produces malt extract. People refer to this as "extract twang." It's in the aftertaste and can leave an astringency-like mouthfeel as well. The twang seems to be more pronounced when using LME rather than DME. The more curious thing is, DME is produced from LME, in a final process.

I've read a lot about "twang". Having not ever had the experience of tasting it AND having someone tell me, "Yup, that's twang," I can only guess at it. It is tangy, sort of. I've never done solely DME so I can't compare. I find the tast unpleasant. Not intollerable, just unpleasant. I don't feel a lot of motivation to grab one from the fridge... I'll go for a Trader Joe Oatmeal Stout first.

What beers were those? Did you do anything differently?

Of course! I'm still learning so they're all a little different. Recipe, yeast... like I said earlier, trying to keep the pot more full by continuously adding water to the pot to replenish evaporation (on the premise that the closer to full boil you do, the better). Longer on the lees. One, I even tried to control temp by putting it in a refrigerator for an hour or two ever few hours. But, those are all those first four with the tangy flavor.

The ones that have no tang are the non-extract brews (partial and full mash). I know that sounds like that identifies the problem, but I'm not satisfied with that. I read how many "award winning extract brews" there've been. Plus, I just can't imagine there would be a market for LME if they all tasted like mine do. Sure, it's drinkable but I'd rather spend my money on commercial beer.

Maybe there is a connection to the extract, but I find it difficult to swallow that extract brews and that tangy flavor or inseparable. No?

Are those the beers you said that were slightly better?

4-6 weeks is about the limit to leave beer on the yeast cake. It should not cause off flavors during that time, generally. Some stalled or slow finishing beers remain on the cake that long. Autolysis may set in after longer times and leave Marmite or Soy Sauce like aromas and flavors. This is a gradual process of course. I noticed it happening after 3 months.

Only about 4 max on the yeast cake. Maybe up to 6 weeks on one of the brews. I move them to a secondary glass carboy, but never more than about 8 weeks total. I start getting nervous after that. Now the first one was probably one week in the primary and 3 weeks in a secondary. That was a pretty big beer so in hindsight I thought I might have been rushing it and since have started extending fermentation time.

More notes and questions:
Do you use steeping grains?

Yes. Type varies. Usually just a pound or so. One was 3 lbs, an attempt at Troubadour Obscura. It was actually the least offensive in terms of the off flavor.

As said before, your water may be the culprit. You said you treat with k-meta to remove chlorine and chloramines. How much do you use, a 1/4 crushed Campden tablet or 1/32 of a teaspoon of powder per 5 gallons of water? Stirred well?

1/16 t. I know its more than necessary, but what we use in wine is considerably more to no ill effect. I only started using it on my last two brews. I like it and will continue using it on tap water. Prior to that it was Brita filter city water only. So, I haven't done an extract with k-meta. All brita. But I have done one or two non-extract brews with brita only with no tang

Do you use a water softener or other water treatment?

No

I would definitely brew your next batch with 100% RO water, just to eliminate the water variable for now.

And/or, if you have the capabilities, brew a small (1-3 gallon) 100% all grain batch with RO water, no extract, and see if you like it better. You can mash in a large pot in a luke warm oven (150-160°F).

On a side note, US-05 and S-04 have a distinct flavor profile, and the higher fermentation temps bring that forward. I don't care for US-05/WLP001,WY1056, there are better yeasts (liquid).

I attempted a 2 gallon batch of ESB AG. I don't know what they're supposed to taste like. I've never had one. But, it definitely doesn't have the tang.

Honestly, I can't taste the yeast profile. Probably a product of my untrained pallate. I started brewing in the summer. I live in Florida. I hadnt yet discovered my LHBS. Ordering yeast mail order restricted me to dry yeast. I just used what Northern recommended initially.

 

[chipwitch]

OP's description is not reminiscent of yeast fermenting too high....to the OP, is it a bit of weird bitterness on the back end of each sip? Almost like a bitter green apple, a little astringent but not too overly so (I.e.-doesn't make you look like you just ate a sour warhead?) Oddly enough, I brewed a NB extract kit recently and got this same taste and I am attributing it to the friggin LME. I did nothing different than I have done for 3 yrs (other than order an extract kit bc I was lazy and didn't have time for my usual AG) and it is a nasty end result with that damn twang on the back end of each sip...never happened with ultra light extract which is what I always used before....Try brewing one of those but instead of the kit, order ultra light extract (keep with late addition at flame out) and get the colors and flavors from the specialty grains. Additionally, use campden tablets b/c some of the flavor you're describing could be from chloramines. I'd be willing to bet you do those things and you will end up with a whole different tasting beer.
NB told me I should not have done late extract addition and should have used RO water....their reasoning is b/c the extraction process "leaves salts behind in the extract which combine with the mineral composition of your tap water and could affect the end product"....which to me doesn't make sense if I had made a bunch of good extract batches prior to this using ultra light extract....although maybe the ultra light extract has less salts left behind in it?? That being said, if it were the case then brewing with RO water and not using ultra light extract might be the same as brewing with tap water and using the ultra light?
Yes, you're fermenting temps could use improvement for sure and would most likely result in even better beer than your good batches you've done, but I don't think it's what is causing your issue.

I wouldn't personally call it green apple, but there is a tanginess. Green apples are tart. Maybe that's it? I taste nothing fruity. I would probably like that. Sometimes I pick up some banana in a Leffe. Very distinct. But you're right... it's on the end of every sip. It isn't sour. My first partial mash I left the wort in a covered pot for 2 days before boiling. Just didn't have time. Now THAT soured. LOL I went ahead and completed the recipe for kicks. It's fairly mild sour. Once bottled it may turn out to be a happy accident.

I don't know why NB advised you against late additions. From what I've read, late additions are a no brainer. Provided, of course you have SOME extract in the boil to aid the hops extraction.

Now, your explanation about the salts makes a little sense. IF the extract manufacturers are using mineral water (tap, well, spring or otherwise) then yeah, those are in the extract. Adding them to your own water would essentially double the amount in your beer. Is that enough to cause off flavors? That's the question.

Since you had better results with the light LME, I'd say the claim about double salts is specious. If they use the same water, you should have the same amount of minerals and salts in the light as well as golden. At least I would think so.

 

[chipwitch]

I appreciate all the input. But my motive for the OP is to find out what the flavor is and what causes it. There's a lot of speculation and good advice for making good beer here. In the end that's the goal, of course. The scientist in me is looking for the cause. We know the precise cause for so many off flavors in beer. But this one? Time and time again, threads like this come up, yet there are no definitive answers. What's even weirder to me is that some LME people seem clueless as to what the flavor is! Am I the only one that finds that fascinating?

There were certainly some great posts here! Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful input. I still have some LME in my brew room. I've been reticent about using it but now you've given me some things to try. Maybe I'll do some one gallon batches. Try some RO. Lower temps. etc. I'd really like to nail down the cause.

 

[sky4meplease]

With so many suggestions it would be hard not to incorporate as many as possible as quickly as possible but that could lead to you never knowing what is the culprit.
It does sound like the further you distance yourself from the extract the better your beer becomes.

 

[joshesmusica]

I appreciate all the input. But my motive for the OP is to find out what the flavor is and what causes it. There's a lot of speculation and good advice for making good beer here. In the end that's the goal, of course. The scientist in me is looking for the cause. We know the precise cause for so many off flavors in beer. But this one? Time and time again, threads like this come up, yet there are no definitive answers. What's even weirder to me is that some LME people seem clueless as to what the flavor is! Am I the only one that finds that fascinating?

There were certainly some great posts here! Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful input. I still have some LME in my brew room. I've been reticent about using it but now you've given me some things to try. Maybe I'll do some one gallon batches. Try some RO. Lower temps. etc. I'd really like to nail down the cause.

If it were me I would start with the basics before you tried to see if it's the water.

Proper temps, proper pitching rate (and one 11.5 gram pack is not enough for anything above 1.060, in my opinion), healthy yeast, proper sanitation (I was gonna say you probably have this down from winemaking, but then you admitted to leaving wort in a pot for a couple of days... Haha). Get those down because you need those for every single beer.

Then if the off-flavor is still there, try the water. If it's still there it's the extract and then maybe it's time to see if you can do some kinda small BIAB batches with your equipment you already have.

But don't change everything all at once, or you'll never know what the problem actually was.

 

[brewprint]

As others have mentioned; try some different water.

When I used to do extract all the beers had an off flavor. Not the extract flavor but another flavor. Well as I type this it could've been the extract taste. I think it was actually the chlorine in the water I used to top it off with.

When I switched to all grain full volume boils the flavor was gone.

I suggest trying different water or go all grain. I have a very sensitive palate though. Temp could be too high too but I don't think that's it.

How can you sleep in 74 degrees!?

 

[pepindavid]

Would you say it's kind of a weird "harshness", different from bitterness? I brewed 3 batches so far (all BIAB, all-grain; no extract), and I had that weird flavor on the first two (the third is fermenting right now, but I detected the same harshness in the unfermented wort). That last time, I know my mash temp and PH are ok (and the pre-boiled wort tasted great). The harshness appeared during the boil (before fermentation). I'm suspecting either water chemistry (based on city's report, I had added gyspum and calcium chlroide), or maybe hops overt-utilization because of slow cooling (I cool in my kitchen sink for the moment).

So, does your off-flavor is similar to a type of "harshness"?

For my next brew, I will either move my hops addition later in the boil (like 30 min, instead of 60), or start with RO water, and see if the flavor is still there.

 

[joshesmusica]

Would you say it's kind of a weird "harshness", different from bitterness? I brewed 3 batches so far (all BIAB, all-grain; no extract), and I had that weird flavor on the first two (the third is fermenting right now, but I detected the same harshness in the unfermented wort). That last time, I know my mash temp and PH are ok (and the pre-boiled wort tasted great). The harshness appeared during the boil (before fermentation). I'm suspecting either water chemistry (based on city's report, I had added gyspum and calcium chlroide), or maybe hops overt-utilization because of slow cooling (I cool in my kitchen sink for the moment).

So, does your off-flavor is similar to a type of "harshness"?

For my next brew, I will either move my hops addition later in the boil (like 30 min, instead of 60), or start with RO water, and see if the flavor is still there.

Tasting the wort right after the boil (when you're testing OG I presume?) will lead you to believe that it's way more bitter than it's supposed to be. That will mellow out during fermentation. If there is a harshness post-boil that's not a hop bitterness, it's likely not the hops, especially not if it's still there post-fermentation.

 

[chipwitch]

If it were me I would start with the basics before you tried to see if it's the water.

Proper temps, proper pitching rate (and one 11.5 gram pack is not enough for anything above 1.060, in my opinion), healthy yeast, proper sanitation (I was gonna say you probably have this down from winemaking, but then you admitted to leaving wort in a pot for a couple of days... Haha). Get those down because you need those for every single beer.

HEY! Laughing at me already? In hindsight it IS pretty funny If you've never made wine, you can't appreciate the differences. I practice good sanitation. Yeast grows so fast in fruit juice, "pitching rates" are pretty much useless. 5g packets are good for up to 10 gallons, I believe. In 3 days, you can go from 1.100 or more down to .999. At that rate, nothing can compete with the yeast. A lot of people only cover their fermenter with a towel for the first couple days as it allows maximum air for the yeast. Soooo, everything I do is based on SOMETHING. ...might be the WRONG something.... but still

Then if the off-flavor is still there, try the water. If it's still there it's the extract and then maybe it's time to see if you can do some kinda small BIAB batches with your equipment you already have.

But don't change everything all at once, or you'll never know what the problem actually was.

I HAVE upgraded to AG and full boil now... just still getting used to it and kinda doing some things unconventionally. I bought a 10 and a 15 gallon aluminum pot. The larger one has a stainless spigot with a false bottom. I know mashing in aluminum is a challenge. After a couple tries I finally came up with a method to overcome the tremendous heat loss and control temp. I've only done one batch like that as I discovered in the middle of that batch my thermometer (lab mercury type) SUCKED. I wanted to brew yesterday to try out my new thermapen but we're experiencing torrents at the moment.

If you're wondering, my method of heat control is adding a full burn blast of heat every 5 minutes. I did very well my last batch (with the exception of the questionable readings). The method is a bit of a pain, but not intolerable. Before mashing, I determine the number of BTU's (calories, kJ or whatever you like) required to raise the temp of the pot, water and grain 1 degree C. I have predetermined how many BTU's my burner can transfer to the pot (simple). A simple calculation will determine the number of seconds of full burn required to restore the lost BTU's. Usually about 15 seconds. I test the temp every 5 minutes. Give it a blast. At next check, if it lost more than a degree, I may blast 20 seconds. Pretty easy to adapt to. But, the short blasts maintain temperature and aren't so long as to scorch the grain on the bottom.

I tried the reflextix... it did virtually nothing. 15 gallon pot with a small 5 gallon batch just loses too much heat. Once I'm more confident about my brewing, I'm planning to do parti-gyle batches. That should help with heat loss.

I have 8 1 gallong jugs and lots of airlocks. I'm thinking about using them to do small experiment batches (1/2 gal?) and setting up a real experiment trying different things. One change per micro batch. Thoughts?

 

[chipwitch]

As others have mentioned; try some different water.

How can you sleep in 74 degrees!?

What's wrong with 74F?

This is south Florida. We only get about 5 days a year where we don't see that temperature at some point during the day.

 

[m00ps]

Nothings wrong with 74F for yeast or people. but with any non-belgian yeast, if you want it to make something that you actually want to drink and you ferment at 74F, youre gonna have a bad time...

look up swamp cooler setups. cheap and easy way to shave 7-8 degrees off your room temp

 

[chipwitch]

Would you say it's kind of a weird "harshness", different from bitterness? I brewed 3 batches so far (all BIAB, all-grain; no extract), and I had that weird flavor on the first two (the third is fermenting right now, but I detected the same harshness in the unfermented wort). That last time, I know my mash temp and PH are ok (and the pre-boiled wort tasted great). The harshness appeared during the boil (before fermentation). I'm suspecting either water chemistry (based on city's report, I had added gyspum and calcium chlroide), or maybe hops overt-utilization because of slow cooling (I cool in my kitchen sink for the moment).

So, does your off-flavor is similar to a type of "harshness"?

For my next brew, I will either move my hops addition later in the boil (like 30 min, instead of 60), or start with RO water, and see if the flavor is still there.

No, I wouldn't call it "harsh" per se. It is "tangy" but not to an extreme. Just enoughso that when you drink... just as you're taste buds are about to go, "mmmMMM" the tanginess hits and it's like, wtf?

Since you taste your harshness pre-boil, I wouldn't think it has anything to do with hops utilization? What do I know? Are you getting tannins maybe? Think red wine that makes you pucker, but it isn't sour. Tannins could come from too fine a crush or over sparging, squeezing the bag etc

I wouldn't reduce the hops to 30 minutes. You need the 60 minutes to get extract the bittering oils.

<edit> Sorry.... I misread your post. I thought you were saying the harsh was there pre-boil. My bad

 

[chipwitch]

Would you say it's kind of a weird "harshness", different from bitterness? .

On second thought... I could see how a little more of this flavor could be called harsh. Could be the same. Maybe not. It isn't really a bitter though. Are you doing full or partial boil?

When you say the wort tastes good pre-boil, is that before or after you remove the bag of grain for the last time?