Understanding flavors from latest brew

[Clementine]

I just did a brew from my old recipe list when I did extracts and so I took a guess at the mash temp. I went with a slightly warmer temps as it is heavily hopped and could support some more residual sweetness. My target temp was 156.

Additional information that may be helpful

My MLT is a "free cooler" and is less than ideal and I noticed temp differentials between the outside grain closer to the outside of the cooler and the middle of the cooler. Probably about 4 degrees, I did stir the mash to try to even this out however, I was limited on how much I should stir the mash as I did not want the temp to drop too much.

My thermometer was calibrated.

This was the first beer I made since moving to PA, I'm not used to having such cool air around my MLT effecting my mash temp. Also the water unknown here for me, although from basic assessment (taste and smell) it is significantly better.

Now the result, my beer was still an good beer but had some faults I would like to correct, I suspect that my mash temp dropped too much and the result was an overly dry beer and lacked the body I was looking for. The attenuation was beyond what I wanted the OG was heavier than expected and the FG was lower than expect 1064 to 1009. The taste is great once you are drinking the beer but the very first taste is a little watery, that is in the only description I can think of that describes the beer. My thought is sweet taste bud receptors are on the front of the tough and hence the first taste is weak but then as the beer goes across the palate the bitterness and other hop flavors support the beer well.

recipe

9 lb 2row
.25lb Wheat Malt
.5lb Dextrin
1lb Crystal 80L

Hops... lots
60 0.5 Centennial
30 1.5 Centennial
15 1 Cascade
0 1.25 Cascade
Dry 0.75 Cascade

Yeast WLP001 1.5L starter on Stir Plate

Mash temp ? aim 156
Fermentation temp 64 degrees
Time to reach FG 52 hrs or less
Time in primary 3 weeks.

Any advice is appreciated

Clem

 

[crackhead7]

Look a few posts down I am having a similiar issue I would bump you initial mash temp up and a little more malt with unfermentables at least that's the advice I was given. Where were at before Pa? You also might want fill the lid of your cooler with foam insulation such as "great stuff" by drilling two holes on opposite ends of the lid this should help prevent as much temp loss.

 

[CTownBrewer]

Just a few possibilities...

1) What was your mash water to grain ratio? You could thicken up your mash by going with 1.25 qt/lb.

2) Did you pre-heat your mash tun? I usually fill it up with a few gallons of 175 F water & close it for about 15 - 20 min before starting my mash. That way it keeps temp better, especially around the edges.

3) Up your mash temp to 158 F.

4) Increase your wheat addition to .75 - 1 lb. That much won't impact your flavor, but it should increase body & head retention.

 

[Clementine]

My aim was around 1.25qt/lb ratio I think it was close. Just a question on that by thickening the mash you are saying I would then also sparge less and therefore to make the same volume I'm in effect add more grain over all? I don't know if it is relavent but my efficiency was much higher in this batch than previous.

Yes I preheat my mash tun with boiling water and then run that through the drain line of the mash tun also to clean it. Then I add the strike water (at boiling) and allow it to cool to strike temp, so the tun is well heated.

I'm going to try both increasing temp and wheat and maybe some crystal also.

Thanks for your input CTownBrewer

Clem

 

[crackhead7]

Thicker mash ratio creates less fermentible sugars thus increasing your fg, but you would need more sparge water to get your boil volume. Or top off with some water but either may result in having to increase grains because efficiency may effectively be reduced.

 

[Clementine]

Understood, I was not aware of the effect of water/grist ratio on fermentability of the wort, I will give it a go and adjust the recipe accordingly.

Clem

 

[user 70770]

Thicker mash ratio creates less fermentible sugars thus increasing your fg

I'm not convinced this is true. Also, I don't think the watery taste is due to the final gravity. 1.009 is on the dryer side, but it's by no means too dry. We bottled a bitter yesterday that finished at 1.009 and it was nice a flavorful with enough body to be very drinkable.

One thing that wasn't mentioned was the age of the beer. Young beer will have a tendency to be a lot less flavorful. If the beer is quite young (< 2 weeks), that might be the reason it is watery. Wait another 2 weeks to a month and try it again. I'm 100% sure it will be much better. Second, you fermented very cool (64F) with a clean yeast. I'd suggest try to ferment at 67-68 which should get a tad bit more yeast character. But I think just waiting a couple more weeks will do wonders.

 

[thisoneguy]

You also might want fill the lid of your cooler with foam insulation such as "great stuff" by drilling two holes on opposite ends of the lid this should help prevent as much temp loss.

I was having trouble maintaining temps in my cooler MLT. I did the insulation and also put thick blankets over and under the cooler during the mash. I had consistent temps throughout and only lost about one degree F in a one hour mash.

 

[Clementine]

I'm not convinced this is true. Also, I don't think the watery taste is due to the final gravity. 1.009 is on the dryer side, but it's by no means too dry. We bottled a bitter yesterday that finished at 1.009 and it was nice a flavorful with enough body to be very drinkable.

One thing that wasn't mentioned was the age of the beer. Young beer will have a tendency to be a lot less flavorful. If the beer is quite young (< 2 weeks), that might be the reason it is watery. Wait another 2 weeks to a month and try it again. I'm 100% sure it will be much better. Second, you fermented very cool (64F) with a clean yeast. I'd suggest try to ferment at 67-68 which should get a tad bit more yeast character. But I think just waiting a couple more weeks will do wonders.

Did I mention this was the first beer that brewed since moving here... the pipe is empty I don't know if I can wait that long!!!! LOL kidding.

I agree that it will be better but I have been brewing for a while and I know green beer and that is not the issue I'm addressing here. My interest is the initial taste has a flat spot and it is only noticeable on the first sip. The reason I'm looking at fermability (is that a word) is that the earlier versions of this beer were extract did not present this problem at this age or younger. Also once the bitterness of this beer takes over the flavor is not noticeable but allow the beer to warm up and go flat and the flavor is much more obvious.

The real help I would like is analysis of the taste (via my taste buds to my computer anyone got a USB uplink for my head). So what taste receptors are the first used when tasting beer, I have read that sweetness is the first taste we notice and hence the second reason I'm looking at the fermability.

I was having trouble maintaining temps in my cooler MLT. I did the insulation and also put thick blankets over and under the cooler during the mash. I had consistent temps throughout and only lost about one degree F in a one hour mash.

Already planning that one, I have some R30 with paper backing I'm going to cocoon it in before I mash.

Thanks for the responses

Clem

 

[Lennie]

I agree about doing something to maintain your mash tmep a little better. You might also start a few degrees warmer. When you get towards 160F the beta amylase denatures so it really doesn't matter if your temp drops, the enzyme is dead. You can also mash for a shorter time at the higher temp, and mash out to kill any residual beta activity and maintain your full-bodied beer.

1.060 to 1.009 is pretty darned dry, unexpected considering you had some dextrine malt and crystal in there. You could always bump the crystal up to 15% of the grist to get more sweetness. Doesn't seem like a beer that ought to be too sweet though, with those nice citrusy hops.

 

[Clementine]

with those nice citrusy hops.

mmmm, yum! I was talking to the head brewer from the Mad Fox at a Christmas Party when we were talking of my love of American Hops he said to give Cirta a go so that one is next on the list to try but I don't want to alter the recipe in to many ways before I fix this problem... you know only change one variable at a time.

Clem

 

[crackhead7]

i have a thing for Cirta hops, but im also one of those hop lovers that like thier beers more on the balanced side with a nice preceptable malt character. i often have people say that my apa and ipa tend to have too much carmel notes, my response is that is what I intended. I don't necessarily brew to stlye I brew my beers for me if you don't like it feel free to make your own!

 

[crackhead7]

I'm not convinced this is true. Also, I don't think the watery taste is due to the final gravity. 1.009 is on the dryer side, but it's by no means too dry. We bottled a bitter yesterday that finished at 1.009 and it was nice a flavorful with enough body to be very drinkable.

One thing that wasn't mentioned was the age of the beer. Young beer will have a tendency to be a lot less flavorful. If the beer is quite young (< 2 weeks), that might be the reason it is watery. Wait another 2 weeks to a month and try it again. I'm 100% sure it will be much better. Second, you fermented very cool (64F) with a clean yeast. I'd suggest try to ferment at 67-68 which should get a tad bit more yeast character. But I think just waiting a couple more weeks will do wonders.

I never said that I was the expert or even close to the most versed brewer here, becasue that is far from the reality. However, I stated what my understanding of these issues are, but ill have to ask some of the local pros at my next club meeting what thier take is on the subject of grist/water ratios. I only try to offer some suggestions for the elements that might have lead to a lower then expected FG, maybe I should have qualified the statement with "some suggest". I also feel that taste perception is too subjective to trouble shoot from, now if the OP mailed me a sample I might be able to percieve the same "watery" flavor or I might not. I stated I was having the same problems with lower then expected FGs, but i dont percieve a watery taste in my beers they just are dryer then intended. The only time I had the flavor that I choose to describe as "watery" was my first AG batch and it was accompanied by astringency aswell. A result of "what I believe" to have been over sparging with with a water ph well over 6. I changed the sparge volumns and adjusted ph below 6 and wallah no more astringnecy or "watery" taste but dryer then intended. Now it time to focus on fermentiblity and tempature ( I read that precision is hard to achieve).

 

[Clementine]

I brew my beers for me if you don't like it feel free to make your own!

Totally, Your gullet - your choice. I always hate being told what a mature palate should enjoy, wine people are always like that, well go F*^% yourself! They are my taste buds, I'll drink/eat what I want.

I like lots of malt too but there has to be the hops and lots of them, not bitterness but rather aroma and flavor! I would have preferred this beer around the 1014 mark, previously it has been around 1016.

Clem

 

[Lennie]

Citra is good, Amarillo, Centennial, Simcoe, Sorachi Ace, the list of citrusy hops goes on and on. Use two or three for late additions.

If you can find Falconers Flight thats a great blend of C hops.

 

[crackhead7]

I just kegged an pale ale tonight with Nelson sauvin hops ill have to report back but the initial tastes are quite promising!