Underground beer dinners

[jgln]

No dig intended, just a little surprised by the answer is all Like I said, one way or the other this is all good info to know.

I am actually enjoying the conversation and also find it interesting what people have to say.

 

[rico567]

I saw something about this -or something like it- on a TV show, Bourdain's, I think. What seems to be important is the "suggested donation" format, thereby getting around the idea that you're a profit-making business, and the idea that this is NOT held in the same place twice....or at least twice in a row. Those who have confirmed reservations are usually called not that long ahead of time and informed where the dinner is taking place. The show I watched had dinners featuring "gray market" foods that normally wouldn't be available in this country.

Of course, depending on the state and locality, even this kind of arrangement might easily fall afoul of one or more of all the thousands of laws, statutes, regulations, etc. that The Land of the Free is more liberally littered with all the time. I am one of those who feel that the inclusion of alcoholic beverages with the meal could lead to a more complex situation.

I would be careful before getting into this that I knew my ground very, very well, and I would go to great lengths to ensure that there was never even one complaint.

As far as this topic on a homebrew forum....well, there are guys on the Equipment thread talking about cooking up commercial brew rigs all the time, so I don't see this as being any more off-homebrewing than a lot of other things I read here. There are all kinds of people on HBT and other forums who comment quite blandly about brewing WAY over 200 gallons a year, which is against Federal law, no matter how you slice it.

 

[pjcampbell]

i think it is a fine idea to invite friends over and share food and beer with them. the second you charge is no good. If you put out a pot and they put in a few bucks to help you make more beer, it is OK in my opinion but quite probably crossing the line of charging for your beer ... generally friends will offer to bring beer, wine, food, entertainment etc.

 

[jgln]

I saw something about this -or something like it- on a TV show, Bourdain's, I think. What seems to be important is the "suggested donation" format, thereby getting around the idea that you're a profit-making business, and the idea that this is NOT held in the same place twice....or at least twice in a row. Those who have confirmed reservations are usually called not that long ahead of time and informed where the dinner is taking place. The show I watched had dinners featuring "gray market" foods that normally wouldn't be available in this country.
Of course, depending on the state and locality, even this kind of arrangement might easily fall afoul of one or more of all the thousands of laws, statutes, regulations, etc. that The Land of the Free is more liberally littered with all the time. I am one of those who feel that the inclusion of alcoholic beverages with the meal could lead to a more complex situation.

I would be careful before getting into this that I knew my ground very, very well, and I would go to great lengths to ensure that there was never even one complaint.

As far as this topic on a homebrew forum....well, there are guys on the Equipment thread talking about cooking up commercial brew rigs all the time, so I don't see this as being any more off-homebrewing than a lot of other things I read here. There are all kinds of people on HBT and other forums who comment quite blandly about brewing WAY over 200 gallons a year, which is against Federal law, no matter how you slice it.

Didn't he say that afterward they all found out one of their kidneys were removed? LOL :cross:

 

[Strave19]

Wow. I'm really surprised by the responses here. This sort of underground kitchen thing is more common than you might think (especially in the PNW). You are not going to get caught by talking about having 10 people over to pay for a dinner and beer tasting at your house on a forum! There are weed-growing forums with hundreds of members still doing their thing! One of these dinners was even on an Anthony Bourdain Episode (Portland or Seattle..?). (okay i see that was mentioned)

I would totally be down for this, I would trust the cooking of a friend of a friend's as far as safety/cleanliness more than most restaurants. It would obviously start with friends and friends of friends but may branch out a bit as people find out. Good food, Homebrew, good company - sounds like a good idea to me! You're obviously not making much money off of it, but enough that you're not getting robbed and come out ahead. do it!

 

[dozer217]

If I'm not wrong aren't most of these "underground" restraunts successful because the ones preparing the menu/food are know chefs etc. Unless you have a presence in the local food scene I don't see how you would generate much interest.

 

[Zamial]

I will add I think most of the responses are people picturing if they would RUN a place like this NOT go to a place like this...

If this was done strictly word of mouth and with no "outside world" advertising, I bet you could do it for a good while and not get caught or have any real issues.

The problem lies when you do have an issue or get caught. I can not imagine you will be making money hand over fist, even under the best of conditions. The basic equation is, the risk is NOT worth the reward...

Just to be perfectly clear, you are talking about starting up an illegal brew pub. Home brewers have been fighting to get making beer for personal use legalized and this casts a "bad light" on the community as a whole, when someone decides the rules do not apply to them. This gets amplified when you are talking about doing something so many of us dream and aspire to do...so do not be "shocked" by the less than receptive responses here.

My question is why not open a legal one instead? You could even keep it small and invite only select people to come. At least you would have insurance (at least I hope you would) and not have to worry about jail/prison time which in MY opinion is the least of your concerns...

 

[Edcculus]

If I'm not wrong aren't most of these "underground" restraunts successful because the ones preparing the menu/food are know chefs etc. Unless you have a presence in the local food scene I don't see how you would generate much interest.

Yea, I've never been to one, but they usually involve major foodies and chefs. I'm pretty sure a good bit of the time, they have a featured/guest chef or group of chefs. You really have to travel in the right circles to go to, or host a "real" underground kitchen. Bourdain did an episode on one where the chefs smuggled in a bunch of young unpasteurized French cheeses, and some other food oddities that are illegal to produce and import into the US.

 

[user 30639]

Sounds kinda cool. I'd do something like this with friends or maybe friends of friends. No strangers though.

 

[SPLASTiK]

Beer & Nosh just penned an entry with pics of one he went to in San Francisco. Seemed pretty cool.

He went to one where the theme was Breakfast for Dinner:
Apéritif: Home Brewed IPA

First course: French Toast (cinnamon bread, egg), bruleed banana, coffee infused maple syrup paired with Lost Abbey’s Red Barn.

Second Course: Chilaquiles made with house-fried chips, house salsa verde, soul food egg sunny side up, queso fresco, crema paired with Oskar Blues' Mama’s Little Yella Pils.

Third Course: English Breakfast with house blood sausage, house-smoked bacon (honey brine), roasted heirloom tomato, pickled scotch egg, sauteed mushrooms paired with homebrewed Smoked Porter.

Fourth Course: Waffle with fig jam, blueberries, chocolate paired with homebrewed Belgian Quad.

 

[Airborneguy]

Just to be perfectly clear, you are talking about starting up an illegal brew pub.

Not even close. An illegal brewpub would be an ongoing operation. A single dinner, served with a selection of beers from maybe 3-4 batches comes no where close to an "illegal brewpub".

Home brewers have been fighting to get making beer for personal use legalized and this casts a "bad light" on the community as a whole, when someone decides the rules do not apply to them. This gets amplified when you are talking about doing something so many of us dream and aspire to do...so do not be "shocked" by the less than receptive responses here.

Don't be so shocked when I call this response dramatic. I hear a faint violin as I read this paragraph... Seriously, one guy, hosting an infrequent, secret dinner, serving homebrewed beer paired with select dishes, does not cast a bad light over the whole community, hell it doesn't even cast a bad light on him!

What the OP suggested amounts to slightly more than inviting your friends over for dinner. It is VERY common in many areas. I guess the posters who live in small towns and rural areas, where if you fart, Joe from 3 miles away knows about it, would obviously have a different view point. But coming from someplace where this could have happened next door last night and I wouldn't have known the difference between it and my neighbor's normal Sunday football gatherings, I don't see anything wrong with it.

If you live someplace where the cops are just waiting to come bust you for accepting $5 for a growler from an acquaintance, I got one word for you: MOVE. Sounds like a crappy place to live because those shadowy authorities are definitely waiting to jump you for other things too.

I hate the government just as much as the next libertarian, but jeez, lighten up people. I'm sure the OP's "illegal brewpub" isn't going to cause Congress to ban homebrewing again.

They might try to tax it, but that's a different story....lol

 

[munche]

I'm not morally outraged or anything, but if someone told me:
"hey man, want to pay money for a dinner at my buddies house? he made the beer and he's making the food and everything, it's in his kitchen, it'll be totally rad!"

Sounds totally sketch. I would stay far, far away from that because it just sounds like a scam or something really dodgy.

On the flip, having some of my friends over and we all bring beer or whatever for a dinner would be fun. Just when you start inviting strangers to eat in your house (weird) or trying to slang your homebrew/food for profit, well, then it's dodgy.

 

[robrob]

I would do it in a heartbeat.

Assuming the menu was interesting and pairings interesting.

I think showing up to one of these events would be really exciting and a bit a rush in and of itself. Would not hesitate to eat at a strangers house in this situation.

Kinda surprised more folks would not be interested...

 

[Germelli1]

I admit that I stopped reading after the tenth "the ATF will knock down your door if you try it" post.

I would definitely attend something like this since you have made it very clear that it will only be people you know.

After all you are serving YOUR OWN HOMEBREWED BEER IN YOUR OWN HOME...so what is so wrong?

 

[Zamial]

Blah,blah,blah

We agree that a diner party is not an issue with or without home brews. This does NOT sound like what the OP is talking about, with comments like "advertising on Facebook and hanging up fliers". "It is like a speakeasy." and the various other things posted in the WHOLE thread...that leads one to think of it as a permanent business.

As for quoting and attacking me with your ever so witty remarks and superior political views, please save that for the debate forum as that does NOT belong here.

 

[Airborneguy]

As for quoting and attacking me with your ever so witty remarks and superior political views, please save that for the debate forum as that does NOT belong here.

Neither does your extremely condescending "blah blah blah". Quite a childish move, if I must say. This discussion, as mentioned before, probably has evolved into something that belongs there anyway.

You want respect from me? Quote my words when you want to refute me, like I did with you.

Now you better go check your front door, there might be a Fed knocking on it.
(Ooops, you told me I couldn't use my wit. Damn.)

 

[BigB]

Just plain weird.

 

[dwarven_stout]

I'd go to an underground dinner. Never had the chance to do one yet.

I've been to an "underground beer tasting" at which I paid a small amount of money (and brought a homebrew) to share tastes of many brews, both commercial and homebrewed, with a bunch of strangers. It was a good time.

 

[Zamial]

Neither does your extremely condescending "blah blah blah". Quite a childish move, if I must say. This discussion, as mentioned before, probably has evolved into something that belongs there anyway.

You want respect from me? Quote my words when you want to refute me, like I did with you.

Now you better go check your front door, there might be a Fed knocking on it.
(Ooops, you told me I couldn't use my wit. Damn.)

This was my original response unedited. I tried civility but since you insisted...

Not even close. An illegal brewpub would be an ongoing operation. A single dinner, served with a selection of beers from maybe 3-4 batches comes no where close to an "illegal brewpub".

We agree...see below...

Don't be so shocked when I call this response dramatic. I hear a faint violin as I read this paragraph... Seriously, one guy, hosting an infrequent, secret dinner, serving homebrewed beer paired with select dishes, does not cast a bad light over the whole community, hell it doesn't even cast a bad light on him!
What the OP suggested amounts to slightly more than inviting your friends over for dinner. It is VERY common in many areas. I guess the posters who live in small towns and rural areas, where if you fart, Joe from 3 miles away knows about it, would obviously have a different view point. But coming from someplace where this could have happened next door last night and I wouldn't have known the difference between it and my neighbor's normal Sunday football gatherings, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Ok Let me slightly rephrase this then since I must have obviously misunderstood, if I did...

Having some folks over for dinner and charging them for food and home brew is WAY different than what I had a feeling the OP was getting at. That would be tacky and make him look like a tool to his friends/family, so we do disagree on that portion. I like my friends and family and this starts to edge on "splitting hairs".

The OP made it sound like this was going to be more of a permanent, every night kind of "private dinner/brew pub thing." With him and his "buddies" frying up lord knows what in the back room. If this is NOT the case then I am sorry for sounding "over dramatic" but with statements like "advertising to friends on Facebook and hanging up fliers" + "It's like a speakeasy" paints a VERY different picture...

If you live someplace where the cops are just waiting to come bust you for accepting $5 for a growler from an acquaintance, I got one word for you: MOVE. Sounds like a crappy place to live because those shadowy authorities are definitely waiting to jump you for other things too.
I hate the government just as much as the next libertarian, but jeez, lighten up people. I'm sure the OP's "illegal brewpub" isn't going to cause Congress to ban homebrewing again.
They might try to tax it, but that's a different story....lol

As for accepting a donation that was not asked directly for, to help mitigate losses, I see no issue with that and I bet neither do most home brewers.

As for making home brewing illegal everywhere again...there are people/groups out there that if they had their way prohibition would look like a giant drunken hippy gang bang compared to what they have planned...so if someone opens an illegal home brew pub and gets caught IT DOES LOOK BAD FOR THE HOME BREW COMMUNITY...

As for telling me, a law abiding citizen, to move if I do not like the place I am in, if the police are doing their job...well that is equally "over dramatic." I bet if you post that crap in the Alabama home brew legalization thread you would get eaten alive...and didn't home brewing just become legal in another state this very year?

and what does your political views/standing have to do with the discussion in general?

 

[Veinman]

I think it sounds like a cool concept personally.

I think it comes down to how people see it and a big part will be your chef's reputation and how the word of mouth goes.

If you have your first one and invite some friends, have some great food some awesome food pairings and they are blown away they'll likely leave impressed their word of mouth could become "Hey my buddy who is a professional chef/great cook and brewer is hosting this awesome night you get 4 courses of great food and several killer beers for $15-20 it's better than any restaurant and a fun time." If I heard this from a friend I trusted I'd totally check it out

If however it's "Ya this guy I know is invited me to dinner gave me some beer then charged me $20, it was good and all but I'd much rather hit a casual restaurant, the beer was ok." then you're obviously dead in the water.

Personally if I went I'd want the experience to be something different that I can't get at a restaurant, whether that's cool, exotic food pairings I'd never had or banned snow crab or whatever, the ultimate question is: Why am I taking this risk by going to someone's house instead of to a restaurant? I need some enticement.

 

[thataintchicken]

laying it out.

I are a chef. I are a homebrewer. If you are lucky enough to be invited to my home for dinner, beer and playing with the Doberman, then you will enjoy a great meal and a great beer or three.

Gratis.

no money involved.

I floated 4 kegs of homebrew last weekend in Santa Cruz at a festival for no money. why?

because I could.

Charging money for underground anything is BS. period.
If you want to charge $$, go pro. end of discussion.

 

[pjj2ba]

laying it out.

I are a chef. I are a homebrewer. If you are lucky enough to be invited to my home for dinner, beer and playing with the Doberman, then you will enjoy a great meal and a great beer or three.

Gratis.

no money involved.

I floated 4 kegs of homebrew last weekend in Santa Cruz at a festival for no money. why?

because I could.

Charging money for underground anything is BS. period.
If you want to charge $$, go pro. end of discussion.

That's what we do. Gratis. We cook a whole pig every summer and provide 4 kegs of homebrew. All we ask is to bring a side dish. We overnighted in 30 lbs of crayfish for about 10 people (paired with homebrew of course). We did mussels and Belgian beer for 12. All Gratis. This weekend we expect to have at least 40 people over for a sit-down Oktoberfest. 15 lbs of Sausage (homemade), 10 lbs of Sauerbratten, saurkraut, potato salad, pretzels - everything homemade. I've got 20 gal. of Oktoberfest ready that I fully expect to be gone afterward.

All because we can and it is simply what we like to do.

 

[Marko73]

That's what we do. Gratis. We cook a whole pig every summer and provide 4 kegs of homebrew. All we ask is to bring a side dish. We overnighted in 30 lbs of crayfish for about 10 people (paired with homebrew of course). We did mussels and Belgian beer for 12. All Gratis. This weekend we expect to have at least 40 people over for a sit-down Oktoberfest. 15 lbs of Sausage (homemade), 10 lbs of Sauerbratten, saurkraut, potato salad, pretzels - everything homemade. I've got 20 gal. of Oktoberfest ready that I fully expect to be gone afterward.

All because we can and it is simply what we like to do.

Can I be your friend. . . . please??

 

[Hugh_Jass]

That's what we do. Gratis. We cook a whole pig every summer and provide 4 kegs of homebrew. All we ask is to bring a side dish. We overnighted in 30 lbs of crayfish for about 10 people (paired with homebrew of course). We did mussels and Belgian beer for 12. All Gratis. This weekend we expect to have at least 40 people over for a sit-down Oktoberfest. 15 lbs of Sausage (homemade), 10 lbs of Sauerbratten, saurkraut, potato salad, pretzels - everything homemade. I've got 20 gal. of Oktoberfest ready that I fully expect to be gone afterward.

All because we can and it is simply what we like to do.

This sounds fantastic.

To the OP, I'm not sure I'd be down with going to a friend's home and paying for dinner and drinks. Personally, I could care less about the Feds and local HD, and I'm sure the food and beer would be good/great., I would, however, consider it rude to ask my friends whom I've invited to pay for anything. JM2C

 

[olllllo]

From the previously cited Beer and Nosh blog (which is excellent, BTW)

It is illegal to operate a restaurant out of your home and serve the public. It is also quite illegal to sell or serve homebrew to the public. However, it is perfectly legal to operate an informal club and serve food to it’s members, with membership fees that happen to coincide with the cost of dinner.

The caveat to this is in the last statement which is a bit misleading because you have to demonstrate that you are a club that is fulfilling it's 501c3 charter (charitable, educational, etc) and your earnings can't benefit an individual. Your charter has to be filed and your status current. In addition you need officers, minutes, meetings records etc. to maintain this status so that you are subject to all of the other regulations that commercial enterprises are subject to. Often this means, no day of, at-the door sales but that is mostly dependent upon your local Alcohol Control Board.

This is how most homebrew clubs are set up, or should be. Ours is a 501c3 educational.

If you fail to live up to the "club" definition, then you are a commercial enterprise owing back taxes and licenses and penalties and possibly legal action.


So regardless of any moral issues, you have to- as with most anything involving alcohol- avoid the tax man. That's how they got Capone.

And no. We won't be talking about politics or how Un-Constitional the tax codes are or anything about Wesley Snipes.

 

[effigyoffaith]

I see kind of like a pitch in dinner. Except people bring money in lieu of dishes so everything goes together and complements the home brew.

I would be very interested in participating in something like this as either cook/brewer or patron. Time to starting making some beer food paring menus.

Maybe not legal, but sounds like a good time to me.

-I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
-Robert Heinlein

 

[jfr1111]

I would be way more concerned about robberies and clients hijinks than about feds knocking on my door. I have been to poker games where you needed to have references to attend and were searched. There was armed security involved.

Once you start serving homebrew and handling money, you have to have gorillas on hand and a foolproof screening process or be foolish to be sure "something" will not happen that will get you into trouble. And that's way too much risk for what little profit you could make. I get the feeling the reason all these underground diners are working and not getting busted is because they either have "connections" (they are getting grey market items after all) or they are too small to even make a blimp on the radar.