under-carbronated beer

[Merlinus]

Hello. I have a question.

Some months ago i did a dubbel and a tripe. I used 8.5 grams of priming sugar per liter of beer, and both came under-carbonated, especially the dubbel (even if i used same amount of priming sugar for both), the yeast was a liquid yeast that was almost expired, but i did a starter (1.25 pitching rate). So i think 8.5grams / liter is enough for the belgian beers, so in that case, it could be from the yeast ? (because it was old, or too less and too stressed?) Before i did many beers with dried yeast and i had no problem. If i'm looking at the bottom of the bottle, it seems very few yeast, in the past with the dried yeast, it was a lot of yeast on the bottom.

Next days i'm planing in doing an Imperial IPA, Imperial Stout and a Quadrupel, all 3 beers will stay in a secondary too (7-10 days, the ipa for dry-hopping, the quad and IS to stay with wood chips), in that case some of the yeast will be also lost, i'm afraid that they will finish also under-carbonated. I will use the same yeast as for the dubbel and trippel, which is wyeast 1762, but this time i hope to be fresher. For the Imperial IPA im going to use dried Safale US-05, but still is going to stay in a secondary for 7-10 days. Should i add some dried yeast after secondary ? How much, when and which yeast (dried) if yes ? I'm brewing 9.5 liters of each batch (which is about 2.5 gallons). Or it will help if i add more priming sugar (9-9.5 grams per liter) ?

* its first time when im going to do a secondary

Thanks !

 

[Yooper]

I'm terrible with metric, so I'll convert here for others like me! You used .299 ounces of corn sugar per 33 ounces of beer. I'd use 1 ounce per gallon, so you are right in the ballpark.

It may help to add a bit of fresh yeast, but the problem could be that for 'bigger' beers, you may be at the alcohol tolerance of the yeast strain. If that's the case, some dry champagne yeast near bottling time (to help ferment the priming sugar) may be most helpful.

 

[Merlinus]

I'm terrible with metric, so I'll convert here for others like me! You used .299 ounces of corn sugar per 33 ounces of beer. I'd use 1 ounce per gallon, so you are right in the ballpark.

It may help to add a bit of fresh yeast, but the problem could be that for 'bigger' beers, you may be at the alcohol tolerance of the yeast strain. If that's the case, some dry champagne yeast near bottling time (to help ferment the priming sugar) may be most helpful.

it's cane sugar (don't know if there is a difference in terms of fermentation), so you are saying i have to use even less priming sugar ? if my calculations are correct, i should use 7 grams / liter.

the dubbel and tripel had 8 and 8.5 abv, so should be no problem with Wyeast 1762 which has Alcohol Tolerance: approximately 12% ABV

i forgot to mention:
for the carbonation: i leaved them 2 weeks at 22 celsius degrees and then moved them in a room that has about 15 celsius degrees and they stayed there 1-2 months, and as i said i never had problems with the carbonation before when i used dried yeast...

 

[flars]

New e-mail system. Did my reply find its way?

 

[Merlinus]

New e-mail system. Did my reply find its way?

Yes, and i replied you

 

[Yooper]

I'd keep them all at 22C longer than two weeks, and only then once carbonated would I move them to 15C. 'Bigger' beers do take more time to carb up, and they won't carb up at 15C.

 

[flars]

Since my reply disappeared, the forum may be more reliable and have more responses.

Copied:
I don't think the problem was the yeast, unless your starter wort did not ferment out, and if the starter didn't work, the beers would not have fermented out. Making the starter gives you a current production date for the yeast.
The amount of priming sugar you used, if it was dextrose or sucrose, would be equal to 5.6 ounces in 5 US gallons. This amount is definitely sufficient for priming.
The problem may be time and temperature for bottle conditioning. Beers with high alcohol content much take longer to bottle condition. I would give these beers four weeks at 70°F (21°C) to 75°F (24°C) to begin carbonating. Six to eight weeks to fully carbonate and finish.

Copied:
the beers fermented as i wanted, so the starter worked, as i used only 1 pack for 2 beers, and both fermented well (85% attenuation)and they finished at 8 and 8,5% abv, it was white sugar (cane). i leaved them 2 weeks at 22 celsius degrees and then moved them in a room that has about 15 celsius degrees and they stayed there 1-2 months



You had said cold conditioning worked in the past, but for these higher ABV beers, it could be contributing to the problem.

 

[Merlinus]

Ok. Thanks. So i shouldn't add dried yeast after 2nd fermentation, but just leave it 3-4 weeks instead of 2 weeks for the bottle fermentation ?

Still I'm afraid that because I'm going to do a 2nd fermentation I'm going to loose even more yeast (in my dubble and tripel is already a thin layer of yeast on the bottom of the bottles). And as i said the tripel is more carbonated than the dubbel (don't know why)

 

[flars]

Sufficient yeast is available for bottle carbonation, even with the use of a secondary vessel. It is near impossible to get all of the microscopic yeast cvells to drop out of solution. A long secondary, six months to a year may reduce yeast levels to the point bottle carbonation is very slow, but yeast cells do remain.
More yeast can be added, but this will also increase the yeast sediment in the bottle.

 

[Merlinus]

Ok thanks, so i will not add extra yeast. I'm preparing the starter, i have 1 pack of wyeast 1762 produced on 23 November. I will brew 2 beers of 1100 and 1105 OG, and 2,5 gallons each batch (9,5 liters each batch) , if i make a starter of 1045 gravity and 2,5 - 2,6 liters, will it be enough to ferment my beers ? My Erlenmeyer glass is only 2,5 liters, is there a problem if i make the starter 1045-1047 gravity ? Or at least 1043...

 

[flars]

A starter of 1.037 to 1.040 will propagate more healthy yeast cells than a starter of higher gravity. Higher alcohol levels produced in a starter wort will inhibit cell budding.

Will you have head space in your flask for krausen if you have 2.5 liters of wort in it?
This pitch rate/starter calculator will help out.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

A two liter starter for each of the beers should give you more than enough yeast using a stir plate.

 

[Merlinus]

A starter of 1.037 to 1.040 will propagate more healthy yeast cells than a starter of higher gravity. Higher alcohol levels produced in a starter wort will inhibit cell budding.

Will you have head space in your flask for krausen if you have 2.5 liters of wort in it?
This pitch rate/starter calculator will help out.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

A two liter starter for each of the beers should give you more than enough yeast using a stir plate.

Yes i know, but will it be a big difference if i make it 1043 ? Would help me a lot !

I think i should have, my Erlenmeyer its 2.5 liters, but after the 2.5 liters line there is a big space. (last time i did a 2.6-2.7 liters starter using 2 packs of same yeast, but i didn't make any krausen). I can't make two starters since i only have 1 pack of yeast (once opened ...), 1 Erlenmeyer flask and 1 stir plate, so i would like to build 1 starter instead of 2, and i will brew the beers in the same day, or at 1 day distance.

Using two difference calculators, a 2.6 liters starter of 1043 gravity (using stir plate) should be enough for 19 liters of 1105 gravity wort. (at a Pitch Rate of 1)

Target Pitch Rate Cells: 472 billion cells
Ending Cell Count: 502 billion cells

Thanks

 

[flars]

A starter wort of 1.043 would not be excessive. I had used a pitch rate of 1.25, but the pitch rate of 1.0 would propagate enough cells to be within safe margins.
Brewers Friend seems to estimate viability of yeast low. The number of cells propagated may be even higher than the calculator estimates.
Go with your numbers. Should be good.

 

[Merlinus]

A starter wort of 1.043 would not be excessive. I had used a pitch rate of 1.25, but the pitch rate of 1.0 would propagate enough cells to be within safe margins.
Brewers Friend seems to estimate viability of yeast low. The number of cells propagated may be even higher than the calculator estimates.
Go with your numbers. Should be good.

Ok thanks again ! Will keep you updated. I smacked the pack now. Next days im goind it.