Ultra low watt density heater for RIMS system

[augiedoggy]

Only if your circuit has a single outlet. I'm sure those exist, but personally I've never seen that. Most have 2 or more outlets on the same circuit, which is perfectly legal to run 15A.

I was mistaken with what I was going to say here.

 

[Ramdough]

So I ended up getting a 5500 watt folded element. It is straight and was the largest in size HD had. I will post pics as I go.


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[Ramdough]

So I ended up getting a 5500 watt folded element. It is straight and was the largest in size HD had. I will post pics as I go.

Thanks everyone.


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[cjgenever]

Only if your circuit has a single outlet. I'm sure those exist, but personally I've never seen that. Most have 2 or more outlets on the same circuit, which is perfectly legal to run 15A.

how is it okay to put a 15 amp rated device behind a 20 amp breaker. Wouldn't that be a fire hazard? not being a smarta$$, just trying to understand. I thought I understood electrical concepts and code pretty well.

is this just one of those things that is done in practice, though technically not approved. or is it based on the 80 percent rule? From what I understand a typical breaker is purely magnetic. hence, is totally dependent on current. unlike a thermal breaker, which can also take into account time which can cause heat buildup in an underrated device.

if I put two 5000@240 heating elements on a single 15 amp receptacle that is a continuous 20 amp draw. wouldn't this be an unsafe condition?

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[augiedoggy]

how is it okay to put a 15 amp rated device behind a 20 amp breaker. Wouldn't that be a fire hazard? not being a smarta$$, just trying to understand. I thought I understood electrical concepts and code pretty well.

is this just one of those things that is done in practice, though technically not approved. or is it based on the 80 percent rule? From what I understand a typical breaker is purely magnetic. hence, is totally dependent on current. unlike a thermal breaker, which can also take into account time which can cause heat buildup in an underrated device.

if I put two 5000@240 heating elements on a single 15 amp receptacle that is a continuous 20 amp draw. wouldn't this be an unsafe condition?

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I think you got that backwards... any device or appliance up to 20a can be used on a 20a circuit the breaker is there to protect the ciruit not the device itself... if its not shorting and only draws 12 amps then great... most houshold devices like a tv drwa much less than 15 amps and they are on a 15 amp circuit.... A 20a appliance or device has a receptacle that has one horizonal spade and one vertical...it will not plug into a 15 amp outlet this is the key reason for having different plug configurations. For a moment I myself forgot this (hence my deleted comment above..) but you can put too many devices on one ciruit and overdraw from it.... Thats when the breaker pops.. happens all the time.
now using 14 guage wire with a 20a breaker is bad news with or without 20a outlets....because you can put a sustained load beyond what the wire is rated to carry and the breaker wont pop... hence the fire hazard.

 

[cjgenever]

Sorry to hijack the thread.

By device I am speaking of the receptacle. A 15a gfci can feed 20a. The problem is it would overheat because the internal conductors are not large enough for the current. As the conductor slowly heats due to the slight over current the resistance increases. this causes the conductor to continue building heat at an exponential rate.

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[cjgenever]

yes 20 amp receptacles have a different plug. you can still plugg two 10a Appliances into a single receptacle, the strong 20 amps through a 15 amp receptacle. there is a small strip of conductor that bonds the upper and lower of a duplex receptacle. I am assuming that on a 15 amp rated receptacle that small bonding strip can safely carry only 15 amps. am I making any sense? responses are welcome but I'm done posting on the subject because I don't want to hijack anymore than I have. Thanks!

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[Largus1776]

In reality, the voltage will be probably low generally because I will start with water that is at temperature from the HLT. It will only be used to maintain temperature.

I wanted the low watt density just to make it less likely to collect junk on it.

Employing a RIMS tube just to maintain the the temperature works well, and can be done at 120V/15Amp. The heater element can be kept out of the wort circulation, thus avoiding the potential disadvantages of the RIMS-tube heating element directly contacting the wort, and it does not add to cleaning:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f244/biab-herms-via-outboard-rims-tube-build-458429/

 

[kenh]

how is it okay to put a 15 amp rated device behind a 20 amp breaker. Wouldn't that be a fire hazard? not being a smarta$$, just trying to understand. I thought I understood electrical concepts and code pretty well.

is this just one of those things that is done in practice, though technically not approved. or is it based on the 80 percent rule? From what I understand a typical breaker is purely magnetic. hence, is totally dependent on current. unlike a thermal breaker, which can also take into account time which can cause heat buildup in an underrated device.

if I put two 5000@240 heating elements on a single 15 amp receptacle that is a continuous 20 amp draw. wouldn't this be an unsafe condition?

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You do it all the time in your own house. I'm sure that your microwave oven is rated at far less than 15 Amps but it's plugged into a 20 amp circuit, so is your fridge. Your TV is rated at less than 5 Amps and it's plugged into a 15 Amp circuit.

 

[augiedoggy]

yes 20 amp receptacles have a different plug. you can still plugg two 10a Appliances into a single receptacle, the strong 20 amps through a 15 amp receptacle. there is a small strip of conductor that bonds the upper and lower of a duplex receptacle. I am assuming that on a 15 amp rated receptacle that small bonding strip can safely carry only 15 amps. am I making any sense? responses are welcome but I'm done posting on the subject because I don't want to hijack anymore than I have. Thanks!

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each receptacle in the outlet is rated at 15 amps so the outlet can actually carry 30a =15 on each recepticle and the breaker and line feed the receptacles, not the other way around.
Those tabs break off between the outlets because in some installations there may actually be two dedicated lines feeding one outlet and each receptacle respectively...

the appliance only draws what it needs so there is no harm in having a 15a outlet on a 20 or even 50a circuit.... now if you break code and wired up your own makeshift element cord and used a 15a rated cord and outlet on say a 220 23a load with a 30a line and breaker feeding it than technically its unsafe because the oulet and receptacle is not rated to safely PASS that current from one end to the other. (in reality this would likely work ok since they overbuilt the contacts and components in most cases but will still get you into trouble if there ever is an issue) I'm sure some members here have already gone this route and are afraid to mention it here... I chose switchcraft connectors that are rated at 30a and I and others even took heat for that here more than once.

 

[Ramdough]

So, the element that I selected is a straight ULWD element. It was $17. I am tempted to use that one for my HLT and boil kettle to save some money over the ripple ones Kal uses. Is there a huge advantage to the ripple elements over the straight ones?


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[augiedoggy]

So, the element that I selected is a straight ULWD element. It was $17. I am tempted to use that one for my HLT and boil kettle to save some money over the ripple ones Kal uses. Is there a huge advantage to the ripple elements over the straight ones?


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just more surface area to the beer and with that the heat is distributed a bit more evenly. its a bit less likely to burn the wort... if its a ULDW at least you should be fine.... as others have stated even regular ldw elements work ok they just might scorch the wort depending on how much you keep the wort moving around them. In rim elements its very easy to get stuck flow and burn the wort. Not as easy in a BK.

 

[cjgenever]

My system is built as cheaply as possible. It's all common electrical boxes, switches,etc. At least half was salvaged from jobs I worked. I use a 3 way switch to switch between 240 and 120v rather than a reostat and ssr. @120v The strait element can keep a good roll after boil has started, but the ripple does not (I'm impatient, so yes, my bk has two elements. I also have a heat stick that I use to boil as well as decoct in the MT). It is still putting out the same joules, just over a larger area, so the boil seems less vigorous. It works fine for me. I simply kick it up 240v for the last ten min to burn off any extra dms (if any). If you already have a strait element give it a go. I think you would need a high gravity to get it to scorch. I only run my strait elements@ 120v, so I can't say. I have scorched a batch using hd 120v elements before. I figured the extra $10 for the ripple was a good investment to ensure I never have to taste that again... I'm forcing myself to drink it as punishment for stupidly destroying a good bitter. Lol.

Another good thing is with the ripple the heat density is so low you can dry fire it for longer before destroying it.

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[cjgenever]

I would be surprised if 1375w couldn't keep up with a rims. What wattage/ voltage did you pick up. My 5500w lwd elements put out 1375w@120v. I used one on a heat stick to decoct 15lb of grain@ 1.5/1 from 145° to 152° in I'd say 4 min. I was two bombers into it so take my grasp of time for what it's worth . Just sayin that @that low a heat density there is certainly nothing to worry about and it should be enough for holding temp easily. With a 240v option you could step real easily on the rims.

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[Ramdough]

So I have a straight 5500 watt ULWD element for my Rims that will run on 120v. For my boils kettle, I am using a ripple element. I may do the same thing for the HLT, but I have not decided yet. Thanks everyone for your input.


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[cjgenever]

U can use whatever in the HLT. The larger elements are better in hard water situations when used in a water heater. With the two 1500w 120v HWD elements in my HLT it all works fine for me.

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[atoughram]

The all barey batch I made yesterday didn't leave much gunk on the 2kw 240V RIMS (LWD) element. I think I'll have to be quite careful with wheat beers.