Ultra low watt density heater for RIMS system

[Ramdough]

Does anyone have a recommendation for an Ultra low watt density heater for RIMS system that is strait (not wavy like Kal's e-brewery)? I would like the same or less watt density as Kal and strait to fit better in a tube.


Thanks


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[AfroHopster]

Home Depot has some

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[augiedoggy]

Home Depot has some

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yup I seen them recently there too

 

[Ramdough]

Do you know if they have the same watt density?


That is what I am looking for.


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[augiedoggy]

Do you know if they have the same watt density?


That is what I am looking for.


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um they are "ultra low watt density" which is less likely to scortch the wort... because they likely aren't as long as the wavy ones they will not have the same surface area to the wort... Unless to found a really long one.

 

[kenh]

Do you know if they have the same watt density?


That is what I am looking for.


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No they don't, the watt density is higher than the CAMCO 02963.

 

[Ramdough]

Has anyone ever found one that is longer with equal or lower watt density?


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[augiedoggy]

Has anyone ever found one that is longer with equal or lower watt density?


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You do realize that even a 4500w element is overkill in a rims tube application? I would think any 5500w uldw element would do what your looking for? are you trying to bring it from tap temps to boiling in one pass or something?
I'm building one now with a 1000w stainless element.

 

[P-J]

Has anyone ever found one that is longer with equal or lower watt density?

Check out this site: Boston Heating Supply - element link

I think you will find what you need there.

P-J

 

[Indian_villager]

Bobby M gave me this tip when I picked up my Rims Tube from him. Lowes has a store brand 5500W element that if you run on 120V will operate @ 1375W

 

[rgauthier20420]

Bobby M gave me this tip when I picked up my Rims Tube from him. Lowes has a store brand 5500W element that if you run on 120V will operate @ 1375W

Surprised this question hasn't come up yet. Are you running 120 or 240? I've got a 5500 ULWD from amazon that will be run at 120 which will spread the wattage out even more. It's about 11" long and straight.

 

[augiedoggy]

I assumed it was being ran at 220v since no mention of running it at half power came up. plus he was specifically looking for 5500w...

 

[Ramdough]

I plan on using an arduino with multiple RTD temperature sensors and then driving this element with a digital dimmer circuit, so the wattage used will change based on a desired change in temperature.

In reality, the voltage will be probably low generally because I will start with water that is at temperature from the HLT. It will only be used to maintain temperature.

I wanted the low watt density just to make it less likely to collect junk on it.


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[gpack]

http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02853-Screw-In-Foldback-Element/dp/B000KKVZUO

 

[Ramdough]

Thanks everyone for your feedback.


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[cjgenever]

Think of how long it would need to be. Why would a manufacturer make a water heater element too long to fit in a water heater? Use a high wattage 240v element folded onto itself and run it@ 120 v. It's an easy way too make an uld out of a low density.

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[gpack]

Or. you could go onto amazon and buy a ULWD (Camco) that is barely over eight inches long that fits in my RIMS tube great and you can run it at the specified voltage.

 

[cjgenever]

Yes, agreed. Looks like that has about 28-30 inches of element. The 220v option is a bit longer giving even lower heat density. Either would work just as well with 120vac. I suppose the decision here would come down to size requirements.

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[Bobby_M]

Or. you could go onto amazon and buy a ULWD (Camco) that is barely over eight inches long that fits in my RIMS tube great and you can run it at the specified voltage.

I don't recommend it. Amazon has been representing the Camco 2853 as ULWD at just under 8" for a really long time http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KKVZUO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

and in reality it only measures 4" and the fold back section is only 1". That means it's about the same density as a 5-6" straight element.

If you're happy with 1500 watts, the best way to achieve it is to put the largest 5500 watt 240v element in there that you can fit and run it on 120v for 1375 watts.

Running an element at its rated voltage is fine, but it's not like running it half voltage carries any liability with it. These things are big resistors.

 

[rgauthier20420]

I don't recommend it. Amazon has been representing the Camco 2853 as ULWD at just under 8" for a really long time http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KKVZUO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

and in reality it only measures 4" and the fold back section is only 1". That means it's about the same density as a 5-6" straight element.

If you're happy with 1500 watts, the best way to achieve it is to put the largest 5500 watt 240v element in there that you can fit and run it on 120v for 1375 watts.

Running an element at its rated voltage is fine, but it's not like running it half voltage carries any liability with it. These things are big resistors.

I bought this exact supposed 8" element from Amazon and return it. It's ridiculously short (4" is a close measurement) and in reality would have had very contact with the wort on the in port side of the tube because of it's length. I got this element and it's almost 11" with a fold back portion of about 5" or so. It's perfect for a RIMS tube. Step mashing would be annoying, but I don't do that. Mash out might be a 15 minute process, but that's not bad when you can get full conversion in 45 minutes with a RIMS set up.

 

[cjgenever]

The camco 5500w (1375w @120v) lwd I use is in stock@ hd and is probably about 9" long. There is also an uld in stock at like 11 or 12". My 240v element is uld 5500w ripple@about 15" long (bk)

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[jpalarchio]

I use the Camco 02933 @ 120v for 1375w and it works fine and keeps it within range for a 15 amp circuit.

 

[cjgenever]

Yeah, @1375w I can run a cord to an outlet in the kitchen and still be able to use countertop appliances. My house is all 12 ga so my breakers are 20a. The gfci's are 20a as well. Don't know why the electrician did that... I would have used cheaper 15a gfci w/ 15a breaker. He still would have needed 12 ga due to voltage drop. Whatever, it helps me

I don't worry about sharing grounds since it is only temporary and every circuit does have its own appropriately sized ground. There is no fire hazard that way.

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[augiedoggy]

Yeah, @1375w I can run a cord to an outlet in the kitchen and still be able to use countertop appliances. My house is all 12 ga so my breakers are 20a. The gfci's are 20a as well. Don't know why the electrician did that... I would have used cheaper 15a gfci w/ 15a breaker. He still would have needed 12 ga due to voltage drop. Whatever, it helps me

I don't worry about sharing grounds since it is only temporary and every circuit does have its own appropriately sized ground. There is no fire hazard that way.

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if its a dedicated line and its 12ga the 20a breakers and gfci are a benefit especially when it comes to kitchen outlets were the 20a is utilized by appliances like coffe makers and toasters..microwaves. you can run two of them on the same circuit with a 20a line with no worries.... The 12gauge wire is the only real cost increase as far as I understand it. I'm not sure what you mean by "voltage drop" though? is it a long cable run?

 

[iijakii]

if its a dedicated line and its 12ga the 20a breakers and gfci are a benefit especially when it comes to kitchen outlets were the 20a is utilized by appliances like coffe makers and toasters..microwaves. you can run two of them on the same circuit with a 20a line with no worries.... The 12gauge wire is the only real cost increase as far as I understand it. I'm not sure what you mean by "voltage drop" though? is it a long cable run?

The cost of 20A gfci outlets is quite higher that 15A. It's also not required, so I too find it odd his house is all 20A gfci outlets. Score!

 

[cjgenever]

The cost of 20A gfci outlets is quite higher that 15A. It's also not required, so I too find it odd his house is all 20A gfci outlets. Score!

They are required with the 20a breaker.

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[cjgenever]

if its a dedicated line and its 12ga the 20a breakers and gfci are a benefit especially when it comes to kitchen outlets were the 20a is utilized by appliances like coffe makers and toasters..microwaves. you can run two of them on the same circuit with a 20a line with no worries.... The 12gauge wire is the only real cost increase as far as I understand it. I'm not sure what you mean by "voltage drop" though? is it a long cable run?

It's not dedicated. It simply feeds the entire kitchen

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[iijakii]

They are required with the 20a breaker.

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Only if your circuit has a single outlet. I'm sure those exist, but personally I've never seen that. Most have 2 or more outlets on the same circuit, which is perfectly legal to run 15A.

 

[atoughram]

This is the 2KW 240V element I use in my RIMS - three brews and works well.

 

[augiedoggy]

It's not dedicated. It simply feeds the entire kitchen

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I see... since you only have one breaker for the whole kitchen it makes that much more sense to go with a 20a breaker....
So what He did makes really just makes sense to make it possible to run 20a appliances....

 

[augiedoggy]

Only if your circuit has a single outlet. I'm sure those exist, but personally I've never seen that. Most have 2 or more outlets on the same circuit, which is perfectly legal to run 15A.

I was mistaken with what I was going to say here.

 

[Ramdough]

So I ended up getting a 5500 watt folded element. It is straight and was the largest in size HD had. I will post pics as I go.


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[Ramdough]

So I ended up getting a 5500 watt folded element. It is straight and was the largest in size HD had. I will post pics as I go.

Thanks everyone.


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[cjgenever]

Only if your circuit has a single outlet. I'm sure those exist, but personally I've never seen that. Most have 2 or more outlets on the same circuit, which is perfectly legal to run 15A.

how is it okay to put a 15 amp rated device behind a 20 amp breaker. Wouldn't that be a fire hazard? not being a smarta$$, just trying to understand. I thought I understood electrical concepts and code pretty well.

is this just one of those things that is done in practice, though technically not approved. or is it based on the 80 percent rule? From what I understand a typical breaker is purely magnetic. hence, is totally dependent on current. unlike a thermal breaker, which can also take into account time which can cause heat buildup in an underrated device.

if I put two 5000@240 heating elements on a single 15 amp receptacle that is a continuous 20 amp draw. wouldn't this be an unsafe condition?

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[augiedoggy]

how is it okay to put a 15 amp rated device behind a 20 amp breaker. Wouldn't that be a fire hazard? not being a smarta$$, just trying to understand. I thought I understood electrical concepts and code pretty well.

is this just one of those things that is done in practice, though technically not approved. or is it based on the 80 percent rule? From what I understand a typical breaker is purely magnetic. hence, is totally dependent on current. unlike a thermal breaker, which can also take into account time which can cause heat buildup in an underrated device.

if I put two 5000@240 heating elements on a single 15 amp receptacle that is a continuous 20 amp draw. wouldn't this be an unsafe condition?

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I think you got that backwards... any device or appliance up to 20a can be used on a 20a circuit the breaker is there to protect the ciruit not the device itself... if its not shorting and only draws 12 amps then great... most houshold devices like a tv drwa much less than 15 amps and they are on a 15 amp circuit.... A 20a appliance or device has a receptacle that has one horizonal spade and one vertical...it will not plug into a 15 amp outlet this is the key reason for having different plug configurations. For a moment I myself forgot this (hence my deleted comment above..) but you can put too many devices on one ciruit and overdraw from it.... Thats when the breaker pops.. happens all the time.
now using 14 guage wire with a 20a breaker is bad news with or without 20a outlets....because you can put a sustained load beyond what the wire is rated to carry and the breaker wont pop... hence the fire hazard.

 

[cjgenever]

Sorry to hijack the thread.

By device I am speaking of the receptacle. A 15a gfci can feed 20a. The problem is it would overheat because the internal conductors are not large enough for the current. As the conductor slowly heats due to the slight over current the resistance increases. this causes the conductor to continue building heat at an exponential rate.

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[cjgenever]

yes 20 amp receptacles have a different plug. you can still plugg two 10a Appliances into a single receptacle, the strong 20 amps through a 15 amp receptacle. there is a small strip of conductor that bonds the upper and lower of a duplex receptacle. I am assuming that on a 15 amp rated receptacle that small bonding strip can safely carry only 15 amps. am I making any sense? responses are welcome but I'm done posting on the subject because I don't want to hijack anymore than I have. Thanks!

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[Largus1776]

In reality, the voltage will be probably low generally because I will start with water that is at temperature from the HLT. It will only be used to maintain temperature.

I wanted the low watt density just to make it less likely to collect junk on it.

Employing a RIMS tube just to maintain the the temperature works well, and can be done at 120V/15Amp. The heater element can be kept out of the wort circulation, thus avoiding the potential disadvantages of the RIMS-tube heating element directly contacting the wort, and it does not add to cleaning:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f244/biab-herms-via-outboard-rims-tube-build-458429/

 

[kenh]

how is it okay to put a 15 amp rated device behind a 20 amp breaker. Wouldn't that be a fire hazard? not being a smarta$$, just trying to understand. I thought I understood electrical concepts and code pretty well.

is this just one of those things that is done in practice, though technically not approved. or is it based on the 80 percent rule? From what I understand a typical breaker is purely magnetic. hence, is totally dependent on current. unlike a thermal breaker, which can also take into account time which can cause heat buildup in an underrated device.

if I put two 5000@240 heating elements on a single 15 amp receptacle that is a continuous 20 amp draw. wouldn't this be an unsafe condition?

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You do it all the time in your own house. I'm sure that your microwave oven is rated at far less than 15 Amps but it's plugged into a 20 amp circuit, so is your fridge. Your TV is rated at less than 5 Amps and it's plugged into a 15 Amp circuit.

 

[augiedoggy]

yes 20 amp receptacles have a different plug. you can still plugg two 10a Appliances into a single receptacle, the strong 20 amps through a 15 amp receptacle. there is a small strip of conductor that bonds the upper and lower of a duplex receptacle. I am assuming that on a 15 amp rated receptacle that small bonding strip can safely carry only 15 amps. am I making any sense? responses are welcome but I'm done posting on the subject because I don't want to hijack anymore than I have. Thanks!

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each receptacle in the outlet is rated at 15 amps so the outlet can actually carry 30a =15 on each recepticle and the breaker and line feed the receptacles, not the other way around.
Those tabs break off between the outlets because in some installations there may actually be two dedicated lines feeding one outlet and each receptacle respectively...

the appliance only draws what it needs so there is no harm in having a 15a outlet on a 20 or even 50a circuit.... now if you break code and wired up your own makeshift element cord and used a 15a rated cord and outlet on say a 220 23a load with a 30a line and breaker feeding it than technically its unsafe because the oulet and receptacle is not rated to safely PASS that current from one end to the other. (in reality this would likely work ok since they overbuilt the contacts and components in most cases but will still get you into trouble if there ever is an issue) I'm sure some members here have already gone this route and are afraid to mention it here... I chose switchcraft connectors that are rated at 30a and I and others even took heat for that here more than once.