Trying a Lager for the first time, questions on temp

[ClearSpirits]

Hey guys, I have a doppelbock in the first few days of primary fermentation in my basement right now. The original plan was to store it out back as the temperatures looked ideal for trying my first lager this time of year, but my OG was low and my friend I was brewing with recommended keeping it closer to 60 during primary fermentation so it would have a faster start. I think this was good advice as fermentation took 72+ hours to show visible signs, and I ended up pitching two extra packs of yeast because I didn't realize originally how many more cells are necessary for a lager compared to an ale. Now I've had a few days of healthy fermentation though and the wort has been kept at a consistent range of 60-65.

My plan was still to move it out of my basement and into the backyard after primary fermentation dies down, but now I have another concern. The forecast right now is calling for lows in the mid 20s next week. What will do more harm to the bock, leaving it in the basement at higher temperatures than normal for a lager, or leaving it out back where it risks dropping too low? I know that one of the benefits of lager temperatures is that it mellows out alcoholic flavors, which is something I'm particularly concerned with doing a doppelbock. And y'know, I was just excited to lager a beer for a change of pace. But I'm starting to think my basement, which is consistently cool and won't fluctuate in temperature drastically, may be more ideal?

 

[Rockn_M]

20's are pretty low. It might freeze the beer if it stays at that temp for a while. I typically lager around the mid to upper 30's.

 

[Darwin18]

Hey guys, I have a doppelbock in the first few days of primary fermentation in my basement right now. The original plan was to store it out back as the temperatures looked ideal for trying my first lager this time of year, but my OG was low and my friend I was brewing with recommended keeping it closer to 60 during primary fermentation so it would have a faster start. I think this was good advice as fermentation took 72+ hours to show visible signs, and I ended up pitching two extra packs of yeast because I didn't realize originally how many more cells are necessary for a lager compared to an ale. Now I've had a few days of healthy fermentation though and the wort has been kept at a consistent range of 60-65.

I'm going to assume that you're using a lager yeast, correct? Ideally, you want to be fermenting most lagers in the 50 - 55 range. 60-65 is too high, and you're going to likely experience high rates of off-flavors from fermenting it too high.

The best advice that I have found with lagers is to pitch your yeast starter at your target fermentation temperatures. If you pitch the correct amount of yeast then you shouldn't have to start fermentation at a high temperature and then try to lower it.

Fermentation for lagers usually takes longer than with most ales. A dopplebock might be actively fermenting for 3 - 4 weeks if you keep it within the temperature range and don't ferment it too hot. I'd personally leave it in your warm basement and try to find a better way to cool fermentation than relying on the ambient air. A simple swamp cooler/tshirt wicking set up might be all you need.

 

[ClearSpirits]

I'm going to assume that you're using a lager yeast, correct? Ideally, you want to be fermenting most lagers in the 50 - 55 range. 60-65 is too high, and you're going to likely experience high rates of off-flavors from fermenting it too high.

That's correct, it's using lager yeast. I was worried about that as well, but from the more I read it sounds like the off-flavors mellow out more so in the following weeks at lager temperatures than the first few days of fermentation. Is that not correct? I've seen a lot of homebrewers citing the same problems as I did and started their fermentation closer to these temperatures and then dropped the temperature for the actual lagering in the following weeks.

At this point I'm worried to move the carboy much because the fermentation was so finicky to start and it's going at a good pace right now. But if I get it outside now it'll be between the high 30s to high 50s the majority of the time between now and Tuesday, at which point I can bring it back down to my basement. I don't have a cooler at my disposal currently and probably wouldn't be able to pick one up any time soon.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

 

[Darwin18]

That's correct, it's using lager yeast. I was worried about that as well, but from the more I read it sounds like the off-flavors mellow out more so in the following weeks at lager temperatures than the first few days of fermentation. Is that not correct? I've seen a lot of homebrewers citing the same problems as I did and started their fermentation closer to these temperatures and then dropped the temperature for the actual lagering in the following weeks.

You can completely avoid the potential off-flavors if you pitch the yeast at your target fermentation temperatures instead of trying to get rid or mellow off-flavors after they have been produced. Lagering isn't going to get of off-flavors derived from hot fermentation.

At this point I'm worried to move the carboy much because the fermentation was so finicky to start and it's going at a good pace right now. But if I get it outside now it'll be between the high 30s to high 50s the majority of the time between now and Tuesday, at which point I can bring it back down to my basement. I don't have a cooler at my disposal currently and probably wouldn't be able to pick one up any time soon.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

I would just leave it in the basement then and let it go. If there is anything you can do to drop the temperatures 5 - 10 degrees, it would be a good idea to try that.

 

[helibrewer]

Leave it in the basement until it is finished....better to be in the low consistent 60's than to vary between 30 and 50.

 

[BigFloyd]

That's correct, it's using lager yeast. I was worried about that as well, but from the more I read it sounds like the off-flavors mellow out more so in the following weeks at lager temperatures than the first few days of fermentation. Is that not correct? I've seen a lot of homebrewers citing the same problems as I did and started their fermentation closer to these temperatures and then dropped the temperature for the actual lagering in the following weeks.

At this point I'm worried to move the carboy much because the fermentation was so finicky to start and it's going at a good pace right now. But if I get it outside now it'll be between the high 30s to high 50s the majority of the time between now and Tuesday, at which point I can bring it back down to my basement. I don't have a cooler at my disposal currently and probably wouldn't be able to pick one up any time soon.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

Lagers benefit from a consistent, cool (48-52*F) temp usually followed by a d-rest in the low 60's. Running it at too high of a temperature to try and compensate for under-pitching the yeast is risky at best. The goal with a lager is not to have it fermenting at "a good pace" like you might see with an ale. Long, slow and steady is better.

I'm afraid that, with the initial ferment being 10-15*F too warm, you're going to have off-flavors. If you happened to have used one of the few lager strains that can also be used to make a "steam beer" (aka California Common) it may not be too bad. Even then, it will taste like a steam beer, not a clean, crisp lager. Cold lagering later does other nice things for the beer, but probably isn't going to "fix" those sorts of off-flavors.

Moving this outside into those fluctuating temps outside isn't going to help it along. If it's not done fermenting, it will either stress the yeast or cause it to go into dormancy. Once it's really ready to lager (after fermentation is completely done), you'll want to keep it steady in the mid-30's 6-8 weeks.

 

[Cyclman]

Keg bucket, frozen 2l water bottles, ice bath to beer level in fermenter. Switch out the bottles regularly, you can keep your fermenter at a relatively constant temp, in a 60 degree basement you can probably drop your temp at least 15-20 degrees to lager it.

Warm is OK for a D-rest, but I wouldn't let a lager get above 55 otherwise.

 

[RLinNH]

Great Thread for new Lager Brewers! Here's what I do. I Pitch my Lager Yeast (after a healthy starter has been completed) at 50 degrees. Yes, it takes longer to see visual signs of fermentation, but bear in mind that you are brewing a Lager. Most of us are used to pitching a healthy yeast culture into an ALE. Most times, within 24 hours we see definite signs of fermentation in our ales. Well, at the lower temps, your little yeasties are slower to wake up. So a lag time of 48-72 hors is NORMAL. I usually let the fermentation go until I see a slow down in fermentation, and I then raise the temp 2 degrees. Let that go, most times about 2 days, then raise to 55 degrees and vigilantly watch the fermentation. You want a slow active fermentation for the diacetyl rest.If you go to long, the yeast will have fallen out of suspension and the diacetyl rest will not be as productive as it should be. I raise my temps to 60 degrees for a diacetyl rest for 3-4 days, then cold crash at 33 degrees for 3 days. Rack to secondary, and fuhgetaboutit for 3-6 months. Yummy Lager is the outcome. Hope this helps you make your own fermentation schedule. Also, taking good notes throughout the fermentation is very important. And, as always, RDWHAHB!!!

 

[ClearSpirits]

Haha don't worry RLinNH, I always make a point to RDWHAHB. A lot of good advice here guys, thanks again. Like I said this was my first time attempting a lager and there are a lot of things I'll know to do differently next time. For now I'm doing what I can to drop the temperature while in my basement. If the weather is a bit more consistent I may move it outside eventually, but not with how it's been lately... it was practically a spring day here today in Philly.

 

[Nameless_Matt]

Hi all,

When you've all left your lagers for 6+ weeks lagering away, do you add any additional yeast at the bottling stage or just prime as normal?

Or are you all force carbing in a cornie?

Got my own first attempt that's been in my cellar at a constant 55 and looking to move it out to my storage box in the garden which will be between 30 and 35 over Christmas.

 

[spark_plug]

And if you can't lager at low temps, WLP810 California Common will do it at 65 degrees.

 

[g-star]

Well, at the lower temps, your little yeasties are slower to wake up. So a lag time of 48-72 hors is NORMAL.

Disagree with this completely. A properly oxygenated (emphasis on oxygen) and pitched lager will show clear activity at 48F in 12 hours, and full krausen in 24hrs. If you're waiting 2-3 days to see activity, you're doing something wrong.

OP: As you now realize, lagers are considerably more difficult to see to a successful outcome relative to ales. Unfortunately, you chose perhaps the most difficult style as your first attempt. Chalk it up to a learning experience, lots of good information in this thread.

 

[Darwin18]

Disagree with this completely. A properly oxygenated (emphasis on oxygen) and pitched lager will show clear activity at 48F in 12 hours, and full krausen in 24hrs. If you're waiting 2-3 days to see activity, you're doing something wrong.

OP: As you now realize, lagers are considerably more difficult to see to a successful outcome relative to ales. Unfortunately, you chose perhaps the most difficult style as your first attempt. Chalk it up to a learning experience, lots of good information in this thread.

Yeah, that's a great point. I usually see activity within 12 hours because I pitch large volumes of yeast (Mr. Malty is my reference). Fermentation does tend to take a week or so longer than a typical ale though.

 

[BigFloyd]

Disagree with this completely. A properly oxygenated (emphasis on oxygen) and pitched lager will show clear activity at 48F in 12 hours, and full krausen in 24hrs. If you're waiting 2-3 days to see activity, you're doing something wrong.

This has been my experience as well.

Oxygenating the wort and pitching plenty of yeast (at a rate of >1.50 compared to 0.75 for a similar gravity ale) is right up there with precise temp control when it comes to the extra things needed to make a good lager. A fermentation chamber and a stir plate are really helpful.