Trouble with flavor - need advice

[Ghazban]

A few months ago I started brewing 1 gallon batches of cider (up to #5 now). It has all gone well except for one thing - all my batches taste water-y. I have used different brands of cider ranging from a semi-local orchard brand down to using generic(kroger) frozen concentrate.

Am I just using too low-quality cider? Would using apple flavoring help? I have had trouble finding any organic/natural flavoring (just artificial) so I haven't tried that yet. Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Straight cider can seem a bit thin, you could add some body by adding a couple pounds of chopped raisins to your primary (5 gallon, less for smaller batches). You could try adding some frozen apple juice concentrate (FAJC), thawed but not reconstituted, to your juice; sort of "juicing-up your juice" as it were. Bear in mind this will also add sugar & acid, giving you a higher ABV & a bit more tartness. You could also use frozen white grape juice concentrate (FWGJC) instead of the apple concentrate.

You might try making a graff:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f81/graff-malty-slightly-hopped-cider-117117/
It's a little more involved than straight cider, but still really easy & is VERY TASTY! Plenty of taste & body due to the malt & hops. You can easily adjust the recipe too, I've been playing with it for a couple years now & haven't had a bad batch yet. Toss a 1/2 lb of oats in the mash & that'll add body & a smooth mouthfeel.
Regards, GF.

 

[Maylar]

What is the basic recipe you are using? Did you add sugar at the beginning? What yeast?

 

[Ghazban]

Have been using brown sugar (1/4 cup), 1 gallon of apple juice, and EC-1118 yeast. Oh, and some yeast nutrient. Have been letting the yeast work until it is down to below 1.000 gravity, move to secondary for a few weeks, then bottle. Have been using Xylitol for sweetning but it seems to take a LOT to get it sweet at all.

 

[bernardsmith]

Have been using brown sugar (1/4 cup), 1 gallon of apple juice, and EC-1118 yeast. Oh, and some yeast nutrient. Have been letting the yeast work until it is down to below 1.000 gravity, move to secondary for a few weeks, then bottle. Have been using Xylitol for sweetning but it seems to take a LOT to get it sweet at all.

The problem may be your choice of yeast. EC-1118 is incredibly aggressive and will blow off aromatics and flavors. Try using something like 71B or QA 23 or even an ale or beer yeast. This won't do anything to the sweetness but they are far less likely to remove the flavors you are looking for.

That said, sometimes you do need to backsweeten more than you think necessary to pull forward the fruit flavors. Try bench testing (if you have not) to see how much sugar you actually need to add to make the cider as sweet as you need it to be.
Also, it may be that your base juice is neither acidic enough for the amount of alcohol you have in the cider (think of beer and the need to balance the sweetness and alcohol with bittering hops). You might want to bench test with "acid blend"*** to increase the acidity and with tannins (could be grape tannin, could be tannins from oak, could add tannins by adding some strong black tea). These all add to the complexity of the cider...

You say the cider tastes "water-y". I wonder if by that you mean it flows in your mouth more like water than a rich, viscous wine that coats your mouth and slowly slides down your throat so that you can still taste all the flavors a minute after you have swallowed the liquid. Have you tried adding glycerine or lactose as the sweetener? It may be that your choice of sweetener is partly to blame. If you stabilize your cider before adding sweetener you can add honey or table sugar or corn sugar. You could add maple syrup or any other fermentable sugar because stabilization will prevent that added sugar from being fermented.

***Acid blend is a mix of citric, tartaric and malic acids that wine makers often use to tweak the acidity of their fruit and grape wines.

 

[Ghazban]

I will try some different yeast with my next batch. It seems to taste that way if i sweeten it or not so I am not sure it is the xylitol but I will try a different sweetner as well.

When I say it tastes watery I mean like if you made some frozen apple juice but added 3 extra cans of water

Thanks for the replies!

 

[Ghazban]

Did anyone have insight on using apple flavoring?

 

[schwiz]

If its watery it needs more body, probably needs more tannin. Adding tannin powder should do the trick, I'm not sure if its too late at this point or not. I suggest trying to add a smidge to a small glass and see if it helps.

 

[bernardsmith]

If its watery it needs more body, probably needs more tannin. Adding tannin powder should do the trick, I'm not sure if its too late at this point or not. I suggest trying to add a smidge to a small glass and see if it helps.

I think you can effectively add tannins before bottling.

 

[jsiddall]

I always add some maltodextrin for better mouth feel

 

[MindenMan]

There are lots of us that use store-bought generic apple juice to make hard cider, and some are better than others. I buy a gallon of juice and 1 can of FAJC to make 1 gallon of cider. I pour 16 oz of juice out of the gallon jug, add the entire can of thawed concentrate, and let ferment until done. The FAJC does boost the flavor and the ABV slightly as well.
I have tried many varieties of yeast to make ciders, from ale yeast to different wine yeasts, and my current favorite is Red Star Pasteur Red (wine) yeast.
It has a high alcohol tolerance, and does not strip away the fruity flavor of the apples.

 

[domingo]

Just to respond to someone's question about artificial apple flavoring: in my experience it adds almost more nose than it does flavor (which can be useful) and what flavor it does add resembles more of a candy (think Jolly Rancher) type flavor.

I'd be curious about pH myself... I find a little bite with some carbonation help. I've gotten watery cider from Notty a number of times (even though it's like...the yeast of choice for so many people on here). I think a lot of it was the apple juice blend (too many dessert apples), a LOT of it was letting it sit too long in primary, and a lot of it was the pH.

 

[Ghazban]

a LOT of it was letting it sit too long in primary, and a lot of it was the pH.

I didn't realize letting it sit in the primary would strip the flavor.

Thanks so much everyone for this and all the other advice. After the 70+ hour work weeks the next month and a half I will have time to get back to my cider and let you all know how the next batches turn out.

My first troubleshooting steps will be to use FCAJ instead of (brown)sugar, get different yeast, and try some tannin.

 

[MindenMan]

The amount of time spent in primary has little to do with the apple flavor, or lack of it in my experience. Aggressive yeast and warm temperatures will strip a lot of flavor from any must or wort. I generally ferment at the bottom of the temperature range for any given yeast. A touch of DAP, a little boiled dead bread yeast, and as much aeration as possible has enabled me to ferment in the same amount of time as warmer temperatures with much cleaner results.
It's all about trial and error, and personal preference. It is not uncommon for me to make a batch of mid-high proof cider, freeze it and pull off the concentrated alcohol (applejack) in the beginning. I will then let the cider thaw a little longer and pour off the "average" strength cider. The left over ice gets tossed. If I had a vapor recovery steam generator ( hint, hint) I wouldn't toss the ice...

 

[domingo]

The amount of time spent in primary has little to do with the apple flavor, or lack of it in my experience. Aggressive yeast and warm temperatures will strip a lot of flavor from any must or wort.

Yeah...I feel strange talking about this because it doesn't seem like it's a common experience. A more accurate statement is that too much time in primary can cause issues with yeast off flavors, which I've had happen a time or two. Like you, I tend to keep my primary fermentation on the lower range of things because I have found it does result in a fuller flavor, and I don't think I've ever had the off-flavor issue this way. Sometimes I do warmer fermentations too...just not usually.

That said, I'm curious as to thoughts of other, more qualified people on this: last year I made a 20 gallon batch with Notty which fermented at 60-65. I moved one of the carboys into secondary in a very timely fashion, after I got a second (presumably malo-lactic) fermentation. The other three I left sitting for over two months before I moved them into secondary. The flavor difference was intense - the portion I moved quickly had incredible flavor, and the portion I slacked off on was incredibly bland. A year later, I'm about to open all these bottles and dump them because even with aging they're still not worth drinking.

Ideas?

 

[MindenMan]

Is it possible the acid component oxidized out? Have you tried adding a touch of acid blend or the equivalent to the glass before drinking? Pure lemon juice might not be the perfect addition, but it may give you enough of a contrast to solve your problem.. If that doesn't work, do you know anybody with a vapor recovery steam generator?

 

[domingo]

Is it possible the acid component oxidized out? Have you tried adding a touch of acid blend or the equivalent to the glass before drinking? Pure lemon juice might not be the perfect addition, but it may give you enough of a contrast to solve your problem.. If that doesn't work, do you know anybody with a vapor recovery steam generator?

LOL.

I actually work at a TTB-licensed distillery, so, yes. I've also been thinking about jacking it myself or turning it into vinegar. The problem is that bland products usually produce bland products.

 

[MindenMan]

Bland = bland, I get it. I plead complete ignorance when it comes to the "D" word, as it is a taboo subject on this website. I have done freeze concentration and gotten some "thin" tasting liquids to improve dramatically. Of course, I am not talking about something I would try to bottle and sell...

EDIT: drastically to dramatically

 

[domingo]

Bland = bland, I get it. I have done freeze concentration and gotten some "thin" tasting liquids to improve drastically.

Good to know.

I'm working on an ACV with it right now. We'll see if I find it acceptable or not...if so, I'll dedicate the remaining two cases.

 

[Ghazban]

The problem may be your choice of yeast. EC-1118 is incredibly aggressive and will blow off aromatics and flavors. Try using something like 71B or QA 23 or even an ale or beer yeast. This won't do anything to the sweetness but they are far less likely to remove the flavors you are looking for.

That said, sometimes you do need to backsweeten more than you think necessary to pull forward the fruit flavors. Try bench testing (if you have not) to see how much sugar you actually need to add to make the cider as sweet as you need it to be.
Also, it may be that your base juice is neither acidic enough for the amount of alcohol you have in the cider (think of beer and the need to balance the sweetness and alcohol with bittering hops). You might want to bench test with "acid blend"*** to increase the acidity and with tannins (could be grape tannin, could be tannins from oak, could add tannins by adding some strong black tea). These all add to the complexity of the cider...

You say the cider tastes "water-y". I wonder if by that you mean it flows in your mouth more like water than a rich, viscous wine that coats your mouth and slowly slides down your throat so that you can still taste all the flavors a minute after you have swallowed the liquid. Have you tried adding glycerine or lactose as the sweetener? It may be that your choice of sweetener is partly to blame. If you stabilize your cider before adding sweetener you can add honey or table sugar or corn sugar. You could add maple syrup or any other fermentable sugar because stabilization will prevent that added sugar from being fermented.

***Acid blend is a mix of citric, tartaric and malic acids that wine makers often use to tweak the acidity of their fruit and grape wines.

I ordered some 71B to give that a try.

Anyone know any good deals on 5-6gal fermenters going on right now? I don't want to pay $20 for one then have to pay $15 shipping

 

[Strut]

I ordered some 71B to give that a try.

Anyone know any good deals on 5-6gal fermenters going on right now? I don't want to pay $20 for one then have to pay $15 shipping

Do you have a local brewery supply shop?

I find most ciders a bit light for my tastes. Are you a beer drinker? If so, you could try a Graff. Graff is essentially a malted cider or "apple ale". Lots more body and mouth feel over the apple wine you're making.

 

[phug]

You could always get a five gal bucket from home depot


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