American IPA Trilium Melcher Street Clone

[Mothman]

I did a follow up FG check yesterday evening, and I pulled my dry hop bag out (after 5 1/2 days DH, about 8 days total primary), as I want to give any debris that made it through the bag time to settle out before I bottle.

The gravity is continuing to work down... it is down to 1.011 now, which is actually where Beersmith predicted it to be for my scaled and tweaked recipe. So the beer will be drier than initially intended, but I'm hopeful it will still be tastey.

The aroma is still really nice, definite peach-mango thing going on. Hydro sample is still on the bitter side in terms of taste, interested to see how it turns out once conditioned.

I still don't have any of the murky, orange-juice looking visuals that I was hoping for, and that I've seen in other's photos.

Is that an indicator that I dry-hopped too late? To recap, I started at 1.057, dry hopped on day 3 at which time it had dropped to 1.018, and it's currently down to 1.011. So the dry hops were in the mix for about the (so far) final 15% of fermentation.

 

[Mothman]

Bottled today..I'm setting my hopes pretty low, I don't think this one turned out properly, but I reserve judgement until they've had some time to condition.

Not hazy, but with a lot of suspended debris... Not sure if it's hops (I used a large bag for dryhops so weird of I got a bunch into the beer) or if it's maybe yeast that hadn't settled.

In either case it should settle out in the bottles.

Mainly I'm hoping the biting bitterness will mellow. Not sure where all the bitterness came from as I used very little hops in the boil, and what I did boil was mostly at the end.

 

[anteater8]

This turned out absolutely fantastic. It's been a while since I've had Trillium but its just what I want in a NEIPA. I will be using this base more often, and switching up the dry hops.

 

[marjen]

SO I am trying to decide whether to close my blow off valve and let some pressure build or not. I am 3 days in to my NE IPA. I added dry hops yesterday as my tilt indicated I was down around 1.018. Whats holding me back is a conversation with ss brew tech. They indicated that you really need to be down as close to 32 F as possible to properly carbonate. Now this is with a carb stone so not sure if that is the reason. If not they said the CO2 will not properly infuse with the beer. So I was worried about having it naturally carb at higher fermentation temps. I tried one batch like that in the fall and it ended up being super foamy but flat tasting at the same time. Really sucked because the beer had a good taste to it. So far I have left the blow off valve open, but originally was wanting to close it when I added the dry hops to keep the aroma in the container.

 

[stonebrewer]

I think they were talking about forced carb'ing not natural. You should be fine to close it.

 

[popquizkid]

@couchsending - JC and I had several back and forth emails and basically he told me to ferment in a closed vessel under pressure to avoid the CO2 stripping the aroma off. I have been doing that for a while with great results. I do not spund/DH until 2-3 days in as he suggested, then add hops and spund. At this point, we are past high krausen but still actively fermenting. This is what he recommended and I am making the best IPAs of my life. So my process is to spund at day 2-3 and ramp up the pressure so that the beer is carbonated when fermentation completes. System is closed to O2 ingress, hops float free, use stainless steel screens to prevent clogs. Anyhow, I am pretty sure there is more than 4-6 points left when I follow the above process, and the beers are very aromatic, probably because of the enclosed nature of my fermentation process. That said, I am willing to give my next beer a go at trying it your way to see if I can tell a difference! Cheers!

Are you DH/spunding in primary? Curious as to what you ferment in -- corny keg? Have considered this, but with only 5 gallons in a corny that would really cut my batch yield down.

 

[stickyfinger]

@couchsending - I have been doing that for a while with great results. I do not spund/DH until 2-3 days in as he suggested, then add hops and spund. At this point, we are past high krausen but still actively fermenting. This is what he recommended and I am making the best IPAs of my life. So my process is to spund at day 2-3 and ramp up the pressure so that the beer is carbonated when fermentation completes. System is closed to O2 ingress, hops float free, use stainless steel screens to prevent clogs. Anyhow, I am pretty sure there is more than 4-6 points left when I follow the above process, and the beers are very aromatic, probably because of the enclosed nature of my fermentation process. That said, I am willing to give my next beer a go at trying it your way to see if I can tell a difference! Cheers!

you ferment in a 5G keg? How full is the keg? do you add anti-foam? do you put a diptube screen on and cut the dip tube some? i assume you transfer off of the trub to another keg? doesn't it foam a lot when you do that, or are you racking to a new keg off of the trub on day 2-3 when you say "spund at day 2-3"? i wonder what percentage of the hop aroma you are theoretically trapping by spunding on day 2-3 to carbonate it vs doing an ordinary open fermentation.

 

[stonebrewer]

I ferment in 5G corny kegs. For larger batches, you can use multiple FVs and even chain them together to make one logical FV if that meets your needs. I do not use antifoam. I both trim my dip tubes and use screens. They are not as effective when using large hop loads, especially when a part of it is cryo. I have a new screen that I am going to try out next time I brew to see if I can get this working optimally, as I have had several clog on me and it was a pain getting it free and flowing again. Standard procedure now it to always hit the out dip tube with CO2 before trying to drain. I don't transfer off trub/yeast. I use one keg for brewing and fermentation (Zymatic) and xfer into a serving keg which I water purge. I do 3G batches with the Z. O2 control is paramount with that much headspace left in the SV. I get much better aroma spunding and naturally carbing, but it is still not exactly where I want it...I have a few ideas on that after talking to a local brewery and will share once I have done some experiments. I find that even using CO2 to push can ruin an NEIPA in a short time, so I don't use any CO2 unless I just can't get anymore beer out the keg...and then just as little as possible. Hope this helps!

 

[Biscuits]

I find that even using CO2 to push can ruin an NEIPA in a short time, so I don't use any CO2 unless I just can't get anymore beer out the keg...and then just as little as possible.

Sorry, but I am at a loss here...what do you mean? Are you saying you don't use CO2 to transfer, carbonate, or serve?

 

[stonebrewer]

Sorry, but I am at a loss here...what do you mean? Are you saying you don't use CO2 to transfer, carbonate, or serve?

More or less, yes to all...CO2 from a tank that is. I spund my FV and let pressure ramp way up at the end of fermentation. This carbs the beer naturally, and allows enough to start the push into the SV...doesn't take much pressure at all to do that as gravity helps this as well. So now my carbonated beer is in the SV, I put it in the kegerator, and I pour when chilled...and pour until I get almost no flow. Then, and only then, will I turn on any gas.

 

[degivens]

stonebrewer — what’s your general spunding pressure scheme / timing? just bought all the parts to give this corny keg fermenting and spunding a try!

 

[stonebrewer]

I spund right after pitching and set the gauge to release at about 10 PSI. Usually takes 3 days to reach pressure. I then toss in a dry hop and set the valve to 15-25 PSI. I leave it under pressure from that point on. Seems to finish with 1318 in 5-6 days and then its pushed to a purged SV. All hops float free, which seems to help both aroma and flavor. I have experienced clogs and am working to make the method more fool proof, because it is a pain getting around a tough clog... but it can be done. I have a new screen setup I am building which I hope eliminates the clogs for good. Once I get around to making it and trying it a few times, I will post results. Best of luck!

 

[Mothman]

Bottled today..I'm setting my hopes pretty low, I don't think this one turned out properly, but I reserve judgement until they've had some time to condition.

I just realized I never updated this.

I let the bottles carb for about a week and a half and was actually pleasantly surprised by the result.

It wasn't what I expected when choosing this recipe... I expected a hazy, juicy, NEIPA, and instead I got a relatively clear, balanced, but bitter, West-meets-East IPA... but my concerns about an overly bitter mess turned out to not be true.

It did turn out more bitter than I expected, and I'm still not sure why, but it wasn't overpowering (at least for me... wife didn't like it, but she is more averse to bitter than I am).

The aroma was spot on.... juicy, citrus, some peach. The flavour included some subtle notes of the same, with the malt still showing, and then the bitterness at the end.

The bottles are now a month in the bottles, and I've still got half a dozen or so left, and they are still very enjoyable.

I will likely try this recipe again some time, and do my dry hop earlier, as I missed active fermentation this time around... and see if the repeat brew maintains the bitterness as this first go.

 

[degivens]

I spund right after pitching and set the gauge to release at about 10 PSI. Usually takes 3 days to reach pressure. I then toss in a dry hop and set the valve to 15-25 PSI. I leave it under pressure from that point on. Seems to finish with 1318 in 5-6 days and then its pushed to a purged SV. All hops float free, which seems to help both aroma and flavor. I have experienced clogs and am working to make the method more fool proof, because it is a pain getting around a tough clog... but it can be done. I have a new screen setup I am building which I hope eliminates the clogs for good. Once I get around to making it and trying it a few times, I will post results. Best of luck!

Thanks for the info man. Just brewed a batch around 3.5gal, threw it in a keg and set up the spundle as you described. Also have a clear beer floating dip tube in the keg -- hoping this works out where I don't even have to transfer. I'll keep ya posted on that.

 

[stonebrewer]

Please do! I have three of those clear beer system floats and really like how they work!

 

[jpLV]

Really curious to see the results as well. I've wanted to experiment with dry-hopping in the keg for some time but havent pulled the trigger on a method yet. Seems like that type of system could streamline the spunding part too.

 

[degivens]

Really curious to see the results as well. I've wanted to experiment with dry-hopping in the keg for some time but havent pulled the trigger on a method yet. Seems like that type of system could streamline the spunding part too.

Fingers crossed!

 

[degivens]

Quick update: Just threw in the dryhops around ~36hrs post pitch. 3.5 gallons appeared to leave me about .5 gallons of headspace in the keg when I opened it up to throw the hops in, so not sure i'd make over a 3.5 gallon batch in a 5 gallon keg, just fyi. Also, had a slightly faster pickup on pressure building in the early stages than did stonebrewer, I had around 10-12psi built up maybe 18 hours post pitch -- I guess it really took off -- also I was super scared and checked the gauge every few hours lol. So far so good!

 

[degivens]

So crashed it down to serving temp for 24hr. Just pulled my first sample.
Initial impressions:
1. it's already carb'd ... that's awesome
2. clear beer thing pulled a super clean pour first time around .. that's double awesome
3. the aroma is definitely a bit more in your face than when i do the normal blowoff and c02 assisted transfer from my conical to a keg .. that's triple awesome
4. it's still a tad green (it's only day 7) .. it's gonna be on par with trillium stuff no doubt though

SUCCESS!

 

[jpLV]

Thanks for the update! Sounds like I may have some new methods to try

 

[degivens]

Thanks for the update! Sounds like I may have some new methods to try

For sure. I probably won’t try the beer for another 3-4 days and the hop bite should be gone. At that point I can say with certainty — but everything is definitely pointing in the direction of this being an easier and perhaps better method.

 

[stonebrewer]

@degivens: are you Rick Flair's son?

Glad this worked for you. Let us know how the flavor and aroma is in a week! Cheers!!!

 

[LoneTreeFarms]

https://goo.gl/images/uUcGbY woo!!

 

[degivens]

@degivens: are you Rick Flair's son?

Glad this worked for you. Let us know how the flavor and aroma is in a week! Cheers!!!

hahaha

Yup i’ll keep ya posted.

 

[degivens]

Beer has settled down now. On day 11. Took the beer to a mini share with some friends last night. The beer was in the top 2 or 3 in a lineup or several Trillium, Aslin, Treehouse, and Triple Crossing beers.

Pretty awesome coming from my garage. Thanks a lot to everyone who has dropped little bits of knowledge in this thread over the last year. Really excited to finally have a process that i’m confident hangs with the heavy hitters.

 

[paarman]

Here's an updated recipe. This is my current best snapshot.

Grains
2 Row - 70%
Flaked Wheat - 18%
Crystal 15 - 5%
CaraPils - 3%
Dextrose - 4%
Mash @ 150F

Yeast
Wyeast 1318 - London Ale III

Hops
Boil Hops:
Columbus - .5oz - 60min
Columbus - 1oz - 10min
Columbus - 3oz - Hop Stand

Dry Hops:
(Add to Primary 3 days post-pitch. Rack off of hops to serving keg 7 days post pitch.)
Columbus - 1.5oz
Mosaic - 8oz

Note, I've dry hopped a number of different ways. Although it's not true to Melcher Street, my current favorite is this:
Columbus - 1.5oz
Mosaic - 4oz
Citra - 4oz

Also love...
Columbus - 1.5oz
Amarillo - 4oz
Simcoe - 4oz

Recipe Stats
60 minute mash, 60 minute boil, hop stand of 20-30mins (or however patient I can be!)
OG: 1.075 / FG: 1.019 (although usually this finishes around 1.013-1.014)
75% attenuation for 7.4% ABV
25 IBUs (but, really, who knows)
150ppm Sulfate and Chloride

I shoot for 7.5gal post-boil to account for the massive hop loss in both the kettle and fermenter. It's not uncommon for me to go from 7.5gal in the kettle to 4.25gal in my keg. (Working on improving this!)

For the dextrose, are you adding that to your grains/mash, or in the boil?

 

[degivens]

For the dextrose, are you adding that to your grains/mash, or in the boil?

I add it with 10-15 minutes left in the boil, that gives it enough time to mix in well.

 

[paarman]

Awesome, thanks. And for those who are making their water profiles.. I'm balancing out to 150 CaSO/CaCl2, but with adding those it also brings the Calcium level up to around 150ppm... Is that a big deal? The alternative is using Epsom salt rather than Gypsum, but that'll bring the Magnesium level up instead... Is one preferred over the other, or am I looking too much into it? I am using Bru'n Water to calculate.

Thanks in advance.

 

[chieftain]

Awesome, thanks. And for those who are making their water profiles.. I'm balancing out to 150 CaSO/CaCl2, but with adding those it also brings the Calcium level up to around 150ppm... Is that a big deal? The alternative is using Epsom salt rather than Gypsum, but that'll bring the Magnesium level up instead... Is one preferred over the other, or am I looking too much into it? I am using Bru'n Water to calculate.

Thanks in advance.

For my last several batches, I've aimed for low Ca (30-40) and CaCl around 100-125. No issues with highish Mg. I think soft water is important to hit the target profile, but that's just my taste buds.

 

[paarman]

Well, here is my update on this. I brewed it up on Saturday, made a couple tweaks but overall stuck close to the recipe. After mashing, I had an SG of 1.058. I pulled off 8.25-8.5 gallons in a bit of a panic on some of what I read here about hop and trub loss.. I boiled an hour and ended up with a little less than 7 gallons, looks like about 6.5 in my fermenter. I am totally thrown for a loss, as I pulled the OG from the kettle and it was reading 1.056. I can't even wrap my mind around how that's possible given where it started and boiling off over a gallon.. Anyone have thoughts on that? Even the math doesn't check out. The quick formula I've always used to find where I need to hit my OG is taking your starting gravity points (58), multipying it by your starting volume (8.5) and dividing it by where you want to end up post boil (lets say 7 gallons).. That should have landed at about 70 gravity points, so 1.070ish, granted I would say I ended with 6.5 gallons, so it should have been right on point around 1.073.... I don't know if my hydrometer was off or what. So that was the only thing that I can't stop racking my brain over since brewing haha..

Fermentation took right off. I made a 1L starter, decanted a day later, and added another 1.5L to it, before decanting and rousing it up on brew day. It went nuts within a day. I came down yesterday morning and immediately decided I needed to get a blow off tube hooked up... Which was the right choice, because this morning it's still going crazy... Kruesen is right up to the neck and it's still bubbling pretty wild. Plan on dry hopping tomorrow, but I'm still trying to get some direction from there.

From what I gather, these beers are done 7-10 days. I have recently acquired a keg, but I have never kegged before. Have been doing quite a bit of reading on it, and I want to go this route to avoid as much O2 exposure as possible. Can't decide if I should do a closed system transfer or just siphon right through the lid hole, and pressurize. I don't have a SS racking tube, but don't know if that's cruicial or if I can just use a general plastic one?

My last question that I am bit in the dark on, is are people dry hopping (per the recipe) on day 3 inside their fermenter? For me, that's a glass carboy. I am reading people are also dry hopping in the keg, so are you dry hopping twice? Do you do that dry hop in the keg, then pull that out, then pressurize? Or do you hop under pressure, depressurize, pull the hopper out, and pressurize again? Sorry for the noobish questions, just trying to understand what kind of process is going on here.

Other than that, the beer smells great, looks great, and I can't wait to try it! Just need to iron out these last details and sounds like I should be ready to keg by this weekend based off the activity of the beer!