Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

[WIexile]

Well this is weird.. canned 6/3/20. Basically crystal clear with no sediment at the bottom of the can. They must have changed their their yeast or something!

They did have a yeast shortage of their "house yeast" and had to use a replacement for a few weeks. It didnt work out well in some batches, with Mosaic dry hop sue being recalled, and I believe your date of king is one of the problem batches as well.

 

[NJGeorge]

Try gently rocking the next can and see what it looks like, maybe just flocced really hard to the can bottom?

No man I purposely shook the last pour in the bottom of can because of how clear it was coming out and no sludge came out. Bottom of the can is clean.

 

[isomerization]

No man I purposely shook the last pour in the bottom of can because of how clear it was coming out and no sludge came out. Bottom of the can is clean.

Crazy!

 

[NJGeorge]

They did have a yeast shortage of their "house yeast" and had to use a replacement for a few weeks. It didnt work out well in some batches, with Mosaic dry hop sue being recalled, and I believe your date of king is one of the problem batches as well.

Wow ok, now we know. Oh well. It’s still a good beer!

 

[couchsending]

That’s true. I’ve seen this with beers I’ve made with the clear beer draft system. But that’s such a small scale. Beer on top gets much more clear, but still. Kind of weird. You never see this with TH for example or Trill. This could have been cans from the last few fills off a brite maybe. @couchsending this is crystal clear like a lager. I’ll see how the other cans are eventually.

I would assume all your other cans will probably be similar as the likelihood of them being in
succession when it comes to production is probably pretty high.

5 years ago when TG was only sold in bombers I'd definitely get some beers that had dropped
"clear". I think their beers have evolved since then and obviously their production has evolved dramatically since then. I've never had a can that was brewed in Iowa look remotely clear. Even stuff that's 4 months old and sat in a fridge for 2 months and not rolled or shook or whatever.

That being said Twisted Galaxy has always had crazy floaties. Fresh in cans or 2 months old in bombers. Always has weird chunks and what not.

 

[NJGeorge]

They did have a yeast shortage of their "house yeast" and had to use a replacement for a few weeks. It didnt work out well in some batches, with Mosaic dry hop sue being recalled, and I believe your date of king is one of the problem batches as well.

Also, how do you know this info? Interesting.

 

[hezagenius]

Well this is weird.. canned 6/3/20. Basically crystal clear with no sediment at the bottom of the can. They must have changed their their yeast or something!

I saw someone post something similar a few weeks ago. Not sure if it was from the same canning date. TG always has sediment in their cans and bottles. I always leave the last ounce or 2 in the can because of it.

 

[NJGeorge]

I saw someone post something similar a few weeks ago. Not sure if it was from the same canning date. TG always has sediment in their cans and bottles. I always leave the last ounce or 2 in the can because of it.

Yeah but this is definitely not the case. For how “young” this can is, I’d cough it up to yeast change.

 

[hezagenius]

Yeah but this is definitely not the case. For how “young” this can is, I’d cough it up to yeast change.

That'd be my guess.

I had a DDH King Sue last week that had been in my fridge for months and it poured super hazy. Tasted awesome, too. That beer had a ton of sediment.

 

[Calaeb]

They had to recall mosaic sue because the yeast did something they didn't like. I assume that was the case with regular sue aswell. Said they had to use different yeast because their supplier was down for the covid stuff.

 

[couchsending]

Yeah I think I saw that the Mosaic Sue developed diacetyl in the cans so they recalled them.

 

[WIexile]

Also, how do you know this info? Interesting.

 

[AM1]

If you have any questions on anything in particular, you can shoot me a PM. Hope this helps!

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.75 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 5.50 gal

Date: 9 Jun 2018
Brewer: Justin Paar
Equipment: Bayou 16 Gal Kettle + 10 Gal Cooler
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %

Mash @ 152* for 60 mins

Water Profile
Calcium: 148ppm
Sulfate: 150ppm
Chloride: 150ppm
Mash pH: 5.25

5 lbs 9 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
6 lbs Golden Promise (2.5 SRM)
8.0 oz Oats, Flaked (1.4 SRM)
8.0 oz Flaked Wheat
4.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM)
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - 0 min
3.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool Boil 35.0 min (Around 160-180*)
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) (Made a 1L starter stepped up to 1.5L starter with this)
4.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop on Day 2-3
3.70 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop on Day 10 (I transferred to keg by day 10)
I did the second dry hop inside of a mesh floating cylinder inside of the keg, where I let it stay until the keg was done, which was within a month.

I cold crashed the keg for 24 hours, then set to 30psi for 24 hours, purge it and set it to serving pressure and let it sit for a few days.

Ferment ~64* for 7-14 days. (Mine was at 65*, moved to 72* on day 3 with first DH, and into a keg on day 10 as it was done)

Est Original Gravity: 1.060 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.9 %

Hi just to confirm- the recipe is for a 6 gallon batch. It seems the end of boil volume is 5.5 gals and it got me confused. 5.5 probably you are refering to the bottling volume?

Also how close is this to the original PS? I intend to give it a shot.

thanks for your input!

 

[couchsending]

Back in MN and grabbed a bunch of TG. Interesting there was a recall on the 5/27 Mosaic Sue. Brother In Law bought some 6/9 cans that definitely had diacetyl as well. Didn’t have the 5/27 recalled batch so not sure how the diacetyl levels compare. Wasn’t apparent right away but as it warmed it became very obvious. Cans of Pompeii and regular Pseudo were drinking great, although maybe a bit clearer than my last couple cans??

Edit: 5/21 Pompeii is clear so I’d assume the suspect yeast. 6/19 Pseudo Sue looks normal.

It’s weird how you’ll get cans where it looks like there’s suspended particles in the beer. I’ve noticed this with their beers forever. Wonder why that is. Recent DDH Light Speed is like that. Focal Banger will look like that too although the particles tend to be bigger in FB.

Mid June cans of King Sue seems to be on point.

 

[MrPowers]

Edit: 5/21 Pompeii is clear so I’d assume the suspect yeast. 6/19 Pseudo Sue looks normal.

It’s weird how you’ll get cans where it looks like there’s suspended particles in the beer. I’ve noticed this with their beers forever. Wonder why that is. Recent DDH Light Speed is like that. Focal Banger will look like that too although the particles tend to be bigger in FB.

From my experience (live in Iowa, pick up TG somewhat regularly) Pompeii does tend to be clearer than Sue on average. If the cans are more than a month old, you can definitely pour a semi clear beer if you try to leave the sediment behind.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

First pour of my 2nd batch of a Sue clone from this thread. Used s04 on both baches. Last time I got the Whitbread funk, but not this time. Only difference really was no dry hop during active fermentation; all dry hopping followed a soft crash. Not quite a Sue clone without that bready twang. Anyone else not get the twang sometimes?

 

[couchsending]

First pour of my 2nd batch of a Sue clone from this thread. Used s04 on both baches. Last time I got the Whitbread funk, but not this time. Only difference really was no dry hop during active fermentation; all dry hopping followed a soft crash. Not quite a Sue clone without that bready twang. Anyone else not get the twang sometimes?

View attachment 695823

I’ve never noticed that typical So4 bready note in TG beers like I get it in Treehouse beers and beers where I’ve used So4. I don’t get to drink TG all the time but pseudo does seem to have a Certain “acidity” to the finish... or “twang” I guess you could say.

 

[hopfenstopfen]

I’ve never noticed that typical So4 bready note in TG beers like I get it in Treehouse beers and beers where I’ve used So4. I don’t get to drink TG all the time but pseudo does seem to have a Certain “acidity” to the finish... or “twang” I guess you could say.

I've only had Treehouse once, so my memory fails there &/or the phenolic stuff stood out more. I don't recall it with Trillium beers either and they supposedly use WLP007. I've had TG beers the most (Iowa & Florida) and, actually, I have only gotten the twang with Pseudo Sue which I really like with the 100% citra. I haven't noticed it in King Sue, Pompeii, etc.

 

[MrPowers]

I’ve never noticed that typical So4 bready note in TG beers like I get it in Treehouse beers and beers where I’ve used So4. I don’t get to drink TG all the time but pseudo does seem to have a Certain “acidity” to the finish... or “twang” I guess you could say.

In my experience, you don't get nearly as much of the twang from S04 on the repitch, or if you make a starter of some sort. I would guess that TG is repitching it's S04 for it's core beers and TH is not, due to the yeast blending.

Supposedly TG is still using 007 for their IIPA's/recurring beers. It's just S04 on the core beers (Sue, Pompeii, etc...). That could be old information though.

 

[couchsending]

Snagged some 10 day old Zeelander the other day. I believe first time in cans? Wow that is lovely beer! Really really really good Nelson hops. TG is one of my favorite hoppy beer breweries in the US. Their beers are such a great showcase of the specific hops, soft and full with enough bitterness to keep you wanting more. They’re rarely thick, sweet, muddled like so so so many modern hoppy beers these days. And they’re insanely shelf stable.

And I still find it hard to believe they use S04 or even 007... I’m planning on harvesting from these fresh cans, interested to see how the yeast acts.

 

[WIexile]

Snagged some 10 day old Zeelander the other day. I believe first time in cans? Wow that is lovely beer! Really really really good Nelson hops. TG is one of my favorite hoppy beer breweries in the US. Their beers are such a great showcase of the specific hops, soft and full with enough bitterness to keep you wanting more. They’re rarely thick, sweet, muddled like so so so many modern hoppy beers these days. And they’re insanely shelf stable.

And I still find it hard to believe they use S04 or even 007... I’m planning on harvesting from these fresh cans, interested to see how the yeast acts.

Also had to make the drive for Zee. Went home with two cases, well worth it. One of my favorites from them, also Clark's "favorite" beer. But I think he changed to FSM now.

S04 is their normal for there regular 4 packs, I have heard now that due to 007 being shorted earlier this year has led TG to experiment with their main yeast for the higher tier but not always to good results, so you never know at this point what you might be seeing. I do think they have remained in the 007 camp tho.

 

[Rothbard69]

So I’ve never used S-04 before for hazy. Always used 1318 with great result. How should I do temperature with S-04

 

[WIexile]

Haven't brewed in a while but will be starting up again soon. Anyone still trying to clone this? Anyone try anything new? Try this years Citra?

 

[skibb]

So I’ve never used S-04 before for hazy. Always used 1318 with great result. How should I do temperature with S-04

Back when I first started brewing Hazies I did all SO4 - it definitely makes a solid hazy beer, especially with a near-terminal dry hop (and it floccs so well you can harvest before hand!).

I moved away from it because of the overwhelming bubblegum character/ester I got from the yeast. It eventually became all I could taste when making beers with this yeast. To reduce its impact, I would ferment cool at 64 F and raise for a D rest when I DH on day 3 (fermentation maybe lasted 5 days).

I eventually moved on to doing an even split of SO4/K-97 and really enjoyed that ester profile when fermenting in the lower 60s

 

[hopfenstopfen]

I eventually moved on to doing an even split of SO4/K-97 and really enjoyed that ester profile when fermenting in the lower 60s

I’ve been wanting to try this combo. Can you say more about the ester profile? And does the S04 help K97 flocc better. K97 is supposed to be a poor floccer when used with kolsch styles I understand.

 

[skibb]

I do not believe it helps it flocc any better - I would tend to notice a drift towards SO4 after about 3 repitches/generations so I would only use it a few times before restarting (which is fine cuz dry yeast is cheap).

The ester profile was more stone fruit and less bubblegum - honestly a bit hard to tell given all the hops I throw in my hazes. This combo did exhibit a slight and pleasant twang (not quite acidity) that complimented the fruity profiles of the hops quite nicely.

 

[5SonsBrewing]

I know there was an article where they interviewed the owner Clark back in 2014 and he said that they don't have a house strain, that they use White Labs exclusively but I'm sure a lot has changed since 2014.

Today, all of Toppling Goliath’s yeast is flown in next day air from California from White Labs. Clark says they tend to use different yeasts for their unique components so the beers will taste differently. “I don’t want a house yeast – we will never have a house yeast – we’ll always have different variants,” he said.

 

[rivetcatcher]

Hi

Did this recipe and the King Sue ever get to a point where it was a full on clone? Ive read through the thread and it seems it makes a great beer just not the same

Rivet