Topped off secondary with juice but no airlock activity?

[Kyle05STi]

Hi everyone, new here with a question about my first cider.

I started my first batch of cider of 11/18/2016 using UV pasteurized fresh-pressed cider from a local orchard.

Mixed O.G. was 1.050, used 1 pack of Red Star Champagne (Premier Blanc I think it's called now) Yeast and 2.5 tsp yeast nutrient.

I racked it to secondary on 1/1/2017 and took a sample to measure, gravity measured at .996 - it tasted pretty good too, a little yeasty but not bad at all.

All was well until I tried to put the airlock on the 5 gallon glass carboy. I didn't want to dry the Starsan solution off for fear of contamination, so it kept popping out of the carboy. Being new at this, I pushed it in a little further and into the carboy it went. No biggie, it was sanitized. I covered the carboy opening and neck with sanitized foil for the night.

On 1/2/2017 I grabbed a few new bungs and got back to it. However I was concerned about the amount of o2 I introduced, especially since the carboy had a lot of headroom and the cider sat in primary for so long and I didn't think it would be churning out much more co2.

I topped it off with about 57.75 oz of preservative-free organic apple juice (O.G 1.048) from an unopened container, hoping this would kick up some co2 production and protect the cider.

It's been about 28 hours and there's no activity in the airlock or signs of fermentation in the carboy. In fact, vodka is being pulled up the center tube of the 3-piece airlock. Our basement drops a few degrees during the day while we're out so I've been fighting this. I didn't expect in in the glass carboy with so little headroom though.

I wouldn't be too concerned, except I started a second batch in primary using 5.5 gal of organic apple juice (ceteris paribus) after topping off the secondary and getting the airlock sorted. That batch is already lifting the center piece of the airlock (no bubbles yet that I've noticed). I expected the dormant yeast in the first batch would coming back for the new sugar long before the second batch started fermenting, but maybe I'm wrong?

I don't want to lose my first batch and I'm freaking out a bit.

I found this thread which helped some:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=91387

But I'm looking for advice from those who may have been here before.

Should I add a little bit of yeast to the batch in secondary? Maybe just some yeast nutrient?

Am I worrying too much and it'll be fine if I leave it be?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Scrumpy!]

You are giving your roots away when you call it "home brew". Cider and wine are "made" or fermented, not brewed.

Liquid and gas change volume with temp so even a small change in liquid volume will pull the liquid out of your fermentation lock if there is little headspace.

Adding so much new juice can be a shock to your cider after it is more or less done fermenting. Your yeast population was in its anaerobic phase and probably dying off. If the juice you added was cold that made it even harder for the remnants of your yeast to get back to work.

Before you start adding yeast and nutrient, I suggest warming it up to the mid sixties for two or three days to see if it responds. If it doesn't, re-hydrate some yeast then pitch it into 8 oz of warm sterile apple juice. Keep that in your kitchen so it stays warm. When it moves out of its lag phase into active feeding mode, warm you batch back up to the mid sixties and pitch your starter in. When the whole works starts to ferment again, put it back in your basement.

Making cider is slow work so no need to freak out. Patience will make better cider than panic.

 

[Kyle05STi]

You are giving your roots away when you call it "home brew". Cider and wine are "made" or fermented, not brewed.

Liquid and gas change volume with temp so even a small change in liquid volume will pull the liquid out of your fermentation lock if there is little headspace.

Adding so much new juice can be a shock to your cider after it is more or less done fermenting. Your yeast population was in its anaerobic phase and probably dying off. If the juice you added was cold that made it even harder for the remnants of your yeast to get back to work.

Before you start adding yeast and nutrient, I suggest warming it up to the mid sixties for two or three days to see if it responds. If it doesn't, re-hydrate some yeast then pitch it into 8 oz of warm sterile apple juice. Keep that in your kitchen so it stays warm. When it moves out of its lag phase into active feeding mode, warm you batch back up to the mid sixties and pitch your starter in. When the whole works starts to ferment again, put it back in your basement.

Making cider is slow work so no need to freak out. Patience will make better cider than panic.

My roots are in improper terminology only This is my first time fermenting anything, and I never plan to make anything that involves "brewing" as I don't care for beer. I'm willing to pick up the proper terminology though.

Your response is encouraging. The apple juice was about 70*F when I added it, I bought 12 1/2 gallon bottles that day in anticipation of topping off/starting a new batch.

As long as there's no harm in letting it sit with the juice that I added, I'll get the temp up and watch for activity. I was worried that if I didn't get some fermentation going that the added juice would cause issues.

Thanks for the info!

 

[buMbLeB]

I'd also like to observe that you just can't trust airlocks as indicators of fermentation. I do my cider primaries in a sealed bucket, and never once have any airlock activity UNTIL I do my (now ritualized) spraying of the underside of the lid with my starsan spritzer. Then, ka-boom! It's gratifying, but not really signifying.

Everything @Scrumpy! said made sense to me... take heart!

 

[Kyle05STi]

I'd also like to observe that you just can't trust airlocks as indicators of fermentation. I do my cider primaries in a sealed bucket, and never once have any airlock activity UNTIL I do my (now ritualized) spraying of the underside of the lid with my starsan spritzer. Then, ka-boom! It's gratifying, but not really signifying.

Everything @Scrumpy! said made sense to me... take heart!

I've heard that as well! I would think some co2 production would prevent the airlock from trying to suck the vodka that's in it into the carboy though, right? The bubbling was pretty vigorous at it's height (about 3 days after pitching the rehydrated yeast) but I understand what Scrumpy said about the yeast being in an anaerobic state, especially this late in the fermentation.

FWIW, batch #2 is was bubbling away in the airlock this morning and it's right next to where I had the glass carboy.

I've moved the carboy upstairs temporarily to bring the temp up to see what happens.

 

[Scrumpy!]

I forgot to mention one more step which will strengthen your "rescue" starter. You should get the yeast accustomed to the new alcoholic environment it will encounter. When your starter is going strong, dilute it by adding 10% target cider followed by another 10% dilution when it recovers from its first taste of alcohol. Be sure your starter and target cider are at the same temperature when you finally blend them.

You can expect a sudden release of CO2 when the starter mixes with the target cider so you will need ample head space to prevent overflow. Once it settles down again, reduce the head space. Keep the target cider in the mid sixties until you get active fermentation going again then move it to a cooler place to finish.

 

[Kyle05STi]

I forgot to mention one more step which will strengthen your "rescue" starter. You should get the yeast accustomed to the new alcoholic environment it will encounter. When your starter is going strong, dilute it by adding 10% target cider followed by another 10% dilution when it recovers from its first taste of alcohol. Be sure your starter and target cider are at the same temperature when you finally blend them.

You can expect a sudden release of CO2 when the starter mixes with the target cider so you will need ample head space to prevent overflow. Once it settles down again, reduce the head space. Keep the target cider in the mid sixties until you get active fermentation going again then move it to a cooler place to finish.

Should I still give it a few days in the mid 60's before adding a "rescue starter"? What are the risks involved with waiting to see if fermentation starts again naturally? I don't want the added sugar to cause issues and I definitely don't want it to oxidize and turn to vinegar.



I didn't measure the volume of the cider that I put into the secondary at .996, but I'd estimate it at around 4.5 gallons (based on adding ~57.75 oz of 1.048 juice taking the level up to the neck). I don't know where 5 gallons is exactly on this carboy, I'm going to measure it and mark it the next time I clean it. using an online calculator, the ABV of the cider pre top-off was just over 7% so it probably would have been pretty hardy. In hindsight, I'm wishing I had left it alone.

Before topping off:

The headspace wasn't too excessive but with the airlock issue I was concerned about the amount of o2 introduced, which is why I topped off.

After topping off:

Aside from airlock activity, what other signs of fermentation should I be looking for? There doesn't appear to be any new bubbles forming on the sides of the carboy. There are still bubbles on the stopper that's floating inside.

I picked up a wine thief so I suppose I could pull samples and measure the gravity. If there's no fermentation going aren't I just risking introducing even more o2 though?

If I do need to make a rescue starter, what should I make it in to minimize the risk of contamination when adding it to the target cider?

 

[Kyle05STi]

Just an update:

There are some small bubbles rising to the top of the carboy. I'll check it again in the morning, I'll take that as a good sign though.

 

[Scrumpy!]

Your cider looks healthy to me. There has to be something going on in there to have such a homogeneous color. Turn the lights out and shine a bright light from behind and I bet you will see a pretty strong parade of bubbles.

You can't hurt anything by pitching a starter if you already have one going. If not, just keep your batch warm and keep an eye on it.

If it were me, I'd make a martini with that vodka and use starsan in my fermentation lock.

 

[Kyle05STi]

Your cider looks healthy to me. There has to be something going on in there to have such a homogeneous color. Turn the lights out and shine a bright light from behind and I bet you will see a pretty strong parade of bubbles.

You can't hurt anything by pitching a starter if you already have one going. If not, just keep your batch warm and keep an eye on it.

If it were me, I'd make a martini with that vodka and use starsan in my fermentation lock.

It's been that color throughout since racking, I was hoping it would clarify a bit in secondary but with the topping off and fermentation starting again I'm not sure. I know I could add pectin enzyme but I'm trying to interfere as little as possible.

The temp strip indicated just under 70 this morning, I turned the thermostat down to 65 and I'm thinking I'll move it back down to the basement tonight unless having it around 70 won't hurt for a few days. I don't have a starter going right now but I'll keep an eye on it and will make one if it seems to need it.

I wouldn't say there's a lot of bubbles, but there's a few:


The ones on the stopper that I pushed in and at the top have been present since racking, but the small ones running up the sides are new as far as I've observed.

I've heard of using starsan in the lock - should it be used straight or mixed at the suggested ratio? When it comes to liquor I'm a Jameson man and my wife used to like vodka but now does gin, so that bottle's just been sitting for a few years.

 

[Kyle05STi]

The small bubbles are almost nonexistant around 65*, but become more active like in the video above around 70-71* - from that I've ready that's a bit warm for cider, at least during primary fermentation. Is that too warm for secondary as well?