took yer advice and got apple juice beer!

[drummer4gc]

i brewed a partial mash amber ale a few months ago and decided i would try keeping it in the primary for the length of fermentation, since people on this forum speak to that method all the time. prior to this, all my beers went for ~1 week in the primary, ~2 in secondary with no problems. After 3 weeks in primary, i kegged this beer, carbed it over the next week and a half, and got a beer that tasted terrible! it was sort of bitter and had strong apple juice taste. Drinking a glass one night a few weeks later also landed me with an undeserved hangover in the morning. after doing some research, i decided i must have either a lot of acetaldehyde, or an acetobacterial infection.

So i put the keg in the back of my closet to see if i could age it out. tried some yesterday, and it wasnt great, but the off flavors seemed to have mellowed quite a bit. back in the closet it goes until i remember it's there in a few more months.


This experience left me with a few questions:

1. any idea if it is an infection or just acetaldehyde? there were never any visual indications of infection, by the way.

2. is it total coincidence that this happened the first and only time i left out the secondary? i know this forum is very pro-primary only, but i cant help but link this ****ty beer with this method in my head. Help convince me that primary only is the way to go, because I have an Anchor Steam clone going right now, and I am torn on whether to rack it to secondary today or not.



Thanks for reading all this!

 

[cincydave]

My guess would be coincidence or something other than leaving in primary longer. I'm no expert and have only done about 8 batches to date, but all have been on primary 3 to 4 weeks and all have been good.

 

[broadbill]

Considering that neither acetylaldehyde compounds or acetobacter are directly caused by a long primary, maybe you should try convincing us why you think its because of an extended primary versus us convincing you it isn't because of an extended primary.

 

[drummer4gc]

@broadbill:

i guess i don't really think the long primary caused the flavor....logically. but it sucks potentially losing a batch of beer that you put a lot of effort into, and i want something to blame. the long primary was the only thing i changed about my process, so although it doesn't make a lot of logical sense to blame that, it makes me reluctant to do ia long primary again, you know?

maybe it would be helpful to hear some ideas about other ways i could have picked up this apple flavor. improper sanitation is the obvious one...

 

[cooper]

I would try another batch and see if you get the same off flavors... It sucks to have to go through it all again for what may be the same result but leaving the beer on the cake for three weeks shouldn't give you any problems especially if everything about the whole process; grain bill, temperatures, water profile, etc were all the same.

 

[stratslinger]

What temperature did you ferment at? If I'm not mistaken, fermenting too warm can lead to acetylaldehyde...

As for acetobacter - if the stuff isn't sour like vinegar, or heading in that direction, you can put that worry right out of mind. As far as I know, there's no such thing as a minor acetobacter infection - either you don't have acetobacter in your beer, or you have a batch of vinegar!

 

[drummer4gc]

can't remember the exact temperature, but it was probably in the high 60s, with safale-05. and it's not really like vinegary, like, i would still probably drink it if i accidentally ordered it in a bar. hopefully it's on the upswing and will be delicious at some point.

 

[FastAndy]

High sixties means it was over 70 in the wort during active fermentation. Sounds to me like thats the problem, i'm not sure if that taste will fade or not.

 

[drummer4gc]

sorry, the wort was in the high 60s during active fermentation (according to the fermometer on the bucket). still could be it though.

 

[luke2080]

I'd be more interested to see the recipe and read your process for what you did. Knowing nothing else, I would chalk it up to an infection of some sort rather than a "long primary". You had it in the primary for 3 weeks, I don't consider that long.

The recent Amber I just drank spent 30 days in the primary, then 2 weeks in the keg on CO2 before we started to drink. I didn't love it, but thats because we failed to get a great rolling boil (windy day, no good wind blocker), we mashed a bit too high, and used no finings. Still a fine, drinkable amber.

If nothing else, call it a coincidence and try the primary only again.

 

[Jwood]

you'll have to tell us your recipe and process...

but unless you are pitching an abundant amount of healthy yeast, oxygenating the wort to the proper levels (8 ppm bare minimum, 10 ppm better) and keeping fermentation temperatures lower and constant throughout the initial few days and then slowly rising to a set higher temperature to have the yeast clean up for the remaining primary.....

well, my point is there is no way you are going to have a great beer to drink after 3 weeks without at least doing all that.

 

[drummer4gc]

the recipe unfortunately is lost. it was written by the head brewer at my lhbs, and his recipes have never failed me before. this was also my last partial mash batch before i started going all grain, and i didn't take notes. so, i guess i couldve screwed up along the way and not known it... i seem to remember mashing grains for one of my batches higher than i should have, maybe that was this one. i know that can lead to astringency.

anyways, thanks for letting me talk this through a bit. i'll let it sit for awhile longer, hope it gets better, deal with it if it doesnt. i appreciate the thoughts!

 

[jusware]

I seriously doubt mashing at higher temps would have caused this flavor. Not using finings wouldn't have done it either. There have been experiments done on basicbrewingradio as well as others that concluded not using finings didn't change the flavor of the beer. I stopped using finings a while back and noticed no change in my beer. Same goes for length of primary. I've left beers in primaries for well over a month with no issues. Without knowing the recipe .. I'd say it is either some odd phenols and/or fussels or more likely an infection. I would suspect an early onset lacto infection of some sort. My brewclub did berlinerweiss tastings last year and I smelled a few that had characteristics of "Scrambled eggs and apple juice". To be quite frank, time heals most wounds. Store it for a few months and try it again. If it still tastes nasty in 3 months .. dump it.

 

[TheSlash]

What temperature did you ferment at? If I'm not mistaken, fermenting too warm can lead to acetylaldehyde...

As for acetobacter - if the stuff isn't sour like vinegar, or heading in that direction, you can put that worry right out of mind. As far as I know, there's no such thing as a minor acetobacter infection - either you don't have acetobacter in your beer, or you have a batch of vinegar!

Correct Acetobacter if I recall eats alcohol and turns it into vinegar basically. Shouldn't ever mellow.

The only time I got this was when I fermented in plastic. After 1 week in the primary blastic bucket I opened it and tasted it and it was wonderful. Blanketed it with c02 and resealed the bucket. 3 weeks later it was vinegar.

So anytime your beer is exposed to air it is exposed to infection. It was either in the air or on my hands somehow. Have left plastic buckets for bottling only. Seeing as they arent even air tight to begin with. Permiable?

But in your case if the flavor is mellowing, I wouldn't think Aceto... But think of things that could have happened during the long primary with the gear you were using... It was not the long primary on it's own guaranteed.

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

You mentioned ferm temps and then later mentioned not taking notes. Temps can spike during the day and change radically at night. Unless controlled, you can't say what the temperature is unless you watch it all day long. I had a similar issue with a batch of steam beer I did this last summer. Used WL San Fran Lager yeast, left in primary a month but am convinced of the off taste being a result of too high a ferm temp. I have since switched to a chest freezer ferm chamber. BEEEYOOTIFUL!!! How do you control the ferm temp? This is one factor that helped me get over the hump!

 

[peregrinebio]

Hey Drummer,

I think the body of experience on this forum with long primaries would convince you that this isn't the problem

I agree with others that fermentation temp can be a problem, although living in San Fran I imagine you can hold things pretty constant. But I second the recommendation for a chest freezer fermenter when you are ready. It makes a HUGE difference.

Other culprits to consider with an apple taste.

Was there a lot of sugar in the recipe? That is known to give a "cidery" taste.

Was your beer splashed much during transfer to the keg. Oxidation can cause these flavors.

Finally, did you check the FG of your beer? Was it actually finished? Acetaldehyde is part of the fermentation process. The yeast eventually clean it up but if fermentation was stopped early for some reason the flavor will be present.

I think you're on the right track of just forgetting about it for a while. It will probably be great in a couple of months. And you could always drop a couple oz's of hops in the keg to help the flavor

Cheers!

 

[emjay]

You sure you didn't accidentally switch it with an apfelwein keg, or served it through beer line that was used for something like it?

In all seriousness, if your descriptions are reasonably good and accurate, I'd guess that the beer would improve with a bit more time. But it might help if you could provide the following details:

What *style* of beer is it?
Which strain of yeast did you use?
Did you make a starter? If so, tell us as much as you can about it - source of the culture (e.g. vial, washed yeast, bottle dregs, etc), age and/or estimated viability of the initial culture, number of steps and the size of each step, method used (e.g. stirplate, intermittent shaking, etc), the calculated number of cells pitched, etc.
What was the OG?
What was the FG?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Is it possible your keg lines are dirty?

It is highly unlikely to be any kind of infection if it is getting better over time. At room temperatures infections continue to get more prominent. Acetobacter would not continue to grow if the keg remains pressurized but the vinegar would not break down. It would remain vinegar-y. It sounds more like a recipe or process issue but not the long primary.