To Squeeze and How Much To Squeeze

[Bigarcherynut]

I finished my second batch of EBIAB this weekend. My first batch efficiency was a little low so I crushed my grains finer and changed a few things up. Taking notes for comparison.

My question is about squeezing. I squeeze the grains. I mean, I SQUEEZE the grains. What do you consider as a proper squeeze? It's there anything like too much or too little squeezing?

Do you just squeeze with your hands? Ouch! That's hot. Thinking of making a press out of maple boards that I could use clamps on to slowly press the boards together or is that not necessary?

Thanks.

 

[KeninMN]

I wear heavy rubber brewing gloves and squeeze until the even IRS can't get another drop out of it. Then I let it sit in a double mesh colander over the brew kettle while I make my measurements.

 

[TheMadKing]

I wear silicon pot holders and squeeze until my arms shake, I'm red in the face, my hands hurt, and there's no more wort coming out.

I have tried the "hang it during the entire boil" method and I don't like it for a few reasons.

-I saw a 10% brewhouse efficiency drop when I did it this way despite the grain absorption being similar. Something about squeezing seems to help the sugars rinse out with the wort in my system. It could be because the temperature remains higher during the entire lautering process
-I can't make accurate volume measurements because I'm adding wort while boiling it off
-I can't take an accurate preboil gravity reading
-The bag is in the way during the boil and begins to drip with steam. It makes me worried about DMS and its a PITA.

I have been trying to think of an ingenious, low effort, bag squeezing device (maybe something similar to a french press? or a grape press?) but I haven't had the time or money to actually build anything.

Boards and clamps are a common solution.

 

[Ike]

I have been trying to think of an ingenious, low effort, bag squeezing device (maybe something similar to a french press? or a grape press?) but I haven't had the time or money to actually build anything.

Boards and clamps are a common solution.

Boards and clamps, good idea... sort of a Fifty Shades of Gray thing for brewers!

My thought involved three five gallon buckets: the middle bucket has a bunch of holes in the bottom. The bottom bucket is the wort-catcher, then drop the hole-riddled bucket into it. Drop the grain bag in, then put the third bucket in as the rammer. Then, literally, sit on it.

My big concern with this plan is ripping the bag with the pressure that would be applied by my fat as-- I mean, my 240 pounds of awesomeness.

 

[TheMadKing]

Boards and clamps, good idea... sort of a Fifty Shades of Gray thing for brewers!

My thought involved three five gallon buckets: the middle bucket has a bunch of holes in the bottom. The bottom bucket is the wort-catcher, then drop the hole-riddled bucket into it. Drop the grain bag in, then put the third bucket in as the rammer. Then, literally, sit on it.

My big concern with this plan is ripping the bag with the pressure that would be applied by my fat as-- I mean, my 240 pounds of awesomeness.

I think a high quality bag should survive that (I use a BrewBag. WilserBrewer bags are also excellent from what I've seen). You also might consider drilling holes part way up the sides of your middle bucket so that the wort can drain out that way too. My 230lbs of awesome are now also considering something like this. Good idea!

 

[Bigarcherynut]

I wear silicon pot holders and squeeze until my arms shake, I'm red in the face, my hands hurt, and there's no more wort coming out.

I have tried the "hang it during the entire boil" method and I don't like it for a few reasons.

-I saw a 10% brewhouse efficiency drop when I did it this way despite the grain absorption being similar. Something about squeezing seems to help the sugars rinse out with the wort in my system. It could be because the temperature remains higher during the entire lautering process
-I can't make accurate volume methods because I'm adding wort while boiling it off
-I can't take an accurate preboil gravity reading
-The bag is in the way during the boil and begins to drip with steam. It makes me worried about DMS and its a PITA.

I have been trying to think of an ingenious, low effort, bag squeezing device (maybe something similar to a french press? or a grape press?) but I haven't had the time or money to actually build anything.

Boards and clamps are a common solution.

Too funny but I know what you're saying. I feel it in my arms the next day. My daughter wondered about a press for mops but don't think it's big enough but is a great idea.

I may still may try two boards with a hinge type top so I can put around the top of the bag while it's hanging. Would look like a tent and then slowly squeeze it shut forcing the wort out the bottom.

Show me your ideas.

 

[TheMadKing]

Too funny but I know what you're saying. I feel it in my arms the next day. My daughter wondered about a press for mops but don't think it's big enough but is a great idea.

I may still may try two boards with a hinge type top so I can put around the top of the bag while it's hanging. Would look like a tent and then slowly squeeze it shut forcing the wort out the bottom.

Show me your ideas.

My main one is something like an orange juicer. A rounded cone in the middle and a resevoir around the outside then press down on it with a concave object (like a bowl or a bucket or something). I don't have any real ideas to build this though. Possibly a smaller bucket upside down inside a bigger bucket and a third bucket pressing down on it upside down (if that made any sense?)

Or a roller press, similar to an oldschool laundry roller that hand cranks the grain bag.

My general principal is increase the surface area to reduce the amount of force needed to extract wort.

 

[TexasWine]

I've recently switched from being a squeezing sparger to being only a sparger. Why squeeze when all I need to do is sparge until I hit my pre boil volume?

Last time I brewed with this method my brew house efficiency was 86%, and it was a lot less work!

So that'd be my recommendation. Instead of squeezing, just pour a little water over your grain.

 

[WBCo]

I thought about the double bucket method (hadn't thought about using a third as a press, awesome idea though) after my first BIAB brew this wknd. I didn't have a satisfactory way on which to squeeze and recover wort from my bag. My bro in law and I took turns either holding the bag above the boil kettle or squeezing the bag.

The only thing I have to add for the bucket grain press is a device called a Grit Guard. I have one that I use for detailing my car and was thinking about picking up another to use for my next brew day. Makes a decent false bottom for a 5 gallon bucket to help get some more wort from the bag.

Could be used for sparging too, depending on volume of course.

 

[TheMadKing]

I've recently switched from being a squeezing sparger to being only a sparger. Why squeeze when all I need to do is sparge until I hit my pre boil volume?

Last time I brewed with this method my brew house efficiency was 86%, and it was a lot less work!

So that'd be my recommendation. Instead of squeezing, just pour a little water over your grain.

Do you just hang your bag over the kettle and pour over the bag? Or do you open your bag (like a garbage bag) over a bucket or something?

I've heard that's its difficult to get even water spreading by pouring over the bag. I've been considering dunk sparging though

 

[Homercidal]

I'm tempted to squeeze the bag as well, when I do BIAB. In fact, I always do, but lately it's been just over the sink, right before I throw out my spent grain. The retained wort makes the spent grain heavier. And I only do this on very small batches that I toss in the trash. Regular batches just get carried out to the compost pile.

I suggestion is to simply let the grain hang for a bit until it's just dripping slowly. Then pull it out of the way and get rid of it.

You would need to adjust your brewing calculations to account for the "deadspace" loss (which would actually be minimal, and you could alternately increase the grain absorption rate instead.) Consider that brewers who use a mash tun with a manifold or false bottom don't squeeze their grain, and they don't let it sit and drain either. BIAB brewers who don't squeeze are at least as well off in that regard.

And they may actually have an advantage. Mash tuns with a manifold or false bottom have the risk of a stuck sparge. In general stuck sparges are not a concern for BIAB brewers and they are free to crush finer, thereby increasing the potential efficiency.

Besides grain crush, the sparge method used also helps determine efficiency. The three basic ways of sparging for BIAB are:

No-sparge = Mashing at a prescribed ratio with the water, such as 1.25 quarts of water per lb of grain. This is a highly INEFFICIENT method, but many argue that it produces the best quality of wort.

Full Volume mash = Ignoring a particular ratio of grain to water and instead mashing with the amount of water needed to produce the volume of usable wort with the desired gravity. There is no sparge technically, but one could argue that the diluted mash kind of acts like a sparge, since the method produces a much better efficiency than the no-sparge method.

Lastly, there is the dunk sparge, or trickle sparge. In this method the ratio of grain to water is used to produce a pre-sparge wort, and then the mash bag is either dunked in a portion of clean water, or water is trickled over the hanging bag. The purpose is to rinse the wort that is still sitting amongst the grain particles. It's much more efficient than the no-sparge method, and slightly more efficient than the full volume mash (where the wort remaining in the grain is fairly diluted already.)

So in my mind my desire to squeeze might be determined by the value of the wort remaining in the grain. If I were to mash with the full volume, or if I dunk or trickle sparge, there is little to gain by squeezing a fairly dilute wort from the grain. However, if I did a no-sparge mash, then there is a more concentrated wort remaining in the grain, and therefore a higher percentage of useful sugars. It might therefore be advantageous to perform a squeeze and recover that wort.

I have thought about a device that could be swung open at the top of a bag, and snapped closed, then a handle or knob rotated to make the device creep down the bag and push the wort from the grains.

Alternatively I've though about a device that resembles two plates that are hinged at the "top". You start with the two pieces separate and join them together at the top of the bag, and then squeeze the bottom like a bellows. The "V" shape helps squeeze the wort from the bag.

I can't but imagine that the process of squeezing the bag each brew shortens the useful life of the bag. It's stretching it and placing it under pressure.

 

[Oginme]

my $0.02 on squeezing: I squeeze as much wort as I can get out of the bag. But at the same time, I try to be as consistent as possible with the amount of water left in the grains. I do full volume mashes, so I remove the bag from the kettle and allow much of the wort to drain out naturally. Then I place the bag in a colander located inside a large stainless bowl and use a flat steel pan cover to press down enough to get the rest of the wort out. The whole squeezing process takes less than 5 minutes, so it is not a big deal in terms of time. I press down with full weight until the wort stops dripping out the bottom of the bag. Water retained in the bag is consistent with the amount of grains left behind and the spent grains are typically wet to the touch and break apart easily.

 

[slym2none]

I squeeze, dunk/batch sparge, and squeeze again.

Why not, right?

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm tempted to squeeze the bag as well, when I do BIAB. In fact, I always do, but lately it's been just over the sink, right before I throw out my spent grain. The retained wort makes the spent grain heavier. And I only do this on very small batches that I toss in the trash. Regular batches just get carried out to the compost pile.

I suggestion is to simply let the grain hang for a bit until it's just dripping slowly. Then pull it out of the way and get rid of it.

You would need to adjust your brewing calculations to account for the "deadspace" loss (which would actually be minimal, and you could alternately increase the grain absorption rate instead.) Consider that brewers who use a mash tun with a manifold or false bottom don't squeeze their grain, and they don't let it sit and drain either. BIAB brewers who don't squeeze are at least as well off in that regard.

I experience a significant drop in efficiency when I don't squeeze or at least drain my bag. You have to remember that standard mash tuns don't need to be squeezed because they are rinsing the sugars out of the grain with fresh water with no solute. That's not the case when you do a full volume mash so your efficiency of sugar dissolving into the liquid drops and you don't get as good of a "rinse." Crush also has a bigger effect on BIAB no-sparge folks. My LHBS crusher is set pretty coarse, so I have to take extra steps to keep my efficiency up.

If I just full volume mashed and pulled the grains straight up and out without squeezing or draining, I would probably be around 50% efficiency or less.

 

[TexasWine]

Do you just hang your bag over the kettle and pour over the bag? Or do you open your bag (like a garbage bag) over a bucket or something?

I've heard that's its difficult to get even water spreading by pouring over the bag. I've been considering dunk sparging though

I use the steamer basket my kettle came with. Hoist the basket up, open the bag and slowly pour water on the grain while the kettle is heating to a boil. But lots of folks pour right on the bag and have zero problems.

Dunk sparge used to be my go to method, but I've decided that it is way more work than just pouring water over the grain.

 

[HomebrewSupply]

I wear heavy rubber brewing gloves and squeeze until the even IRS can't get another drop out of it. Then I let it sit in a double mesh colander over the brew kettle while I make my measurements.

And now I'm not going to be able to think of squeezing any other way.

 

[m00ps]

You are all doing it wrong. Here is my proven method for BIAB sparging:
- let hot grains drain until its barely running anymore
- place the hot bag (it must still be hot, this is important for the next step) in a bucket or other container with something to keep it off the bottom
- squeeze the hot bag until it burns your drunken ass
- curse loudly
- pour some cold water over the bag to sparge, convince yourself it is MUCH cooler now
- repeat last 3 steps a few more times

 

[chrisisnapping]

just did my second BIAB on saturday, I got some of these grilling gloves off of amazon for $7 that keep out the heat really well and I just squeezed and squeezed, while the bag is sitting on top of a large baking cooling rack that lays across the kettle. I squeezed in all different ways and spots over about 5-10 minutes. I managed a 68% efficiency on my 3.25G SMaSH. For my first "real" BIAB (first was a 1g AG kit) and only third brew overall I was quite happy with that efficiency, now just to move on up!

 

[goatchop41]

I do full volume BIAB (no sparging) and regularly get between 85-90% efficiency with it.
When I pull the bag, I let it drain for about 30 seconds while holding it, then slide a thick and solid cake rack/cooler under it. I then grab the lid for my urn (I use an electric urn for brewing) and squeeze down on the bag with that for a few mins. I tend to get out quite a lot of extra wort that way

 

[Bigarcherynut]

Well I did my third batch today and here's what I made for squeezing. Worked great. My calculated grain absorption was .066. Got more out from my first two batches without hot hands and sore arm's.

Between the squeezing, my extended mash time of 90 minutes and a 10 minute mash out at 168 Deg. I got my numbers up. They say third times a charm but for me it was getting comfortable with what I'm doing and taking good notes and readings. Getting my system figured out.

Thanks to all for your help and comments.

 

[Gavin C]

Don't squeeze. Spin.

Easy. Effective. Efficient.

~0.045 gallons/lb grain absorption.

 

[FatDragon]

Boards and clamps, good idea... sort of a Fifty Shades of Gray thing for brewers!

My thought involved three five gallon buckets: the middle bucket has a bunch of holes in the bottom. The bottom bucket is the wort-catcher, then drop the hole-riddled bucket into it. Drop the grain bag in, then put the third bucket in as the rammer. Then, literally, sit on it.

My big concern with this plan is ripping the bag with the pressure that would be applied by my fat as-- I mean, my 240 pounds of awesomeness.

This is quite ingenious. My draining system is identical to this, but I have never thought of using the third bucket to squeeze. The two whole buckets are used for grain grinding (whole grains in one, grind into the second) the night before brewday, and then as the grainbag sits in the perforated bucket and I sparge-squeeze-drain, I swap outer buckets as necessary to keep wort flowing and get the drainage in the kettle. Next brewday I'll have to try using the third bucket for the squeeze and see how that goes.

 

[slym2none]

Don't squeeze. Spin.

That's pretty much how I squeeze. I twist the bag up until I am afraid it's going to tear - then I give it another 1/2 turn.

 

[FatDragon]

I'm tempted to squeeze the bag as well, when I do BIAB. In fact, I always do, but lately it's been just over the sink, right before I throw out my spent grain. The retained wort makes the spent grain heavier. And I only do this on very small batches that I toss in the trash. Regular batches just get carried out to the compost pile.

I suggestion is to simply let the grain hang for a bit until it's just dripping slowly. Then pull it out of the way and get rid of it.

You would need to adjust your brewing calculations to account for the "deadspace" loss (which would actually be minimal, and you could alternately increase the grain absorption rate instead.) Consider that brewers who use a mash tun with a manifold or false bottom don't squeeze their grain, and they don't let it sit and drain either. BIAB brewers who don't squeeze are at least as well off in that regard.

And they may actually have an advantage. Mash tuns with a manifold or false bottom have the risk of a stuck sparge. In general stuck sparges are not a concern for BIAB brewers and they are free to crush finer, thereby increasing the potential efficiency.

Besides grain crush, the sparge method used also helps determine efficiency. The three basic ways of sparging for BIAB are:

No-sparge = Mashing at a prescribed ratio with the water, such as 1.25 quarts of water per lb of grain. This is a highly INEFFICIENT method, but many argue that it produces the best quality of wort.

Full Volume mash = Ignoring a particular ratio of grain to water and instead mashing with the amount of water needed to produce the volume of usable wort with the desired gravity. There is no sparge technically, but one could argue that the diluted mash kind of acts like a sparge, since the method produces a much better efficiency than the no-sparge method.

Lastly, there is the dunk sparge, or trickle sparge. In this method the ratio of grain to water is used to produce a pre-sparge wort, and then the mash bag is either dunked in a portion of clean water, or water is trickled over the hanging bag. The purpose is to rinse the wort that is still sitting amongst the grain particles. It's much more efficient than the no-sparge method, and slightly more efficient than the full volume mash (where the wort remaining in the grain is fairly diluted already.)

So in my mind my desire to squeeze might be determined by the value of the wort remaining in the grain. If I were to mash with the full volume, or if I dunk or trickle sparge, there is little to gain by squeezing a fairly dilute wort from the grain. However, if I did a no-sparge mash, then there is a more concentrated wort remaining in the grain, and therefore a higher percentage of useful sugars. It might therefore be advantageous to perform a squeeze and recover that wort.

I have thought about a device that could be swung open at the top of a bag, and snapped closed, then a handle or knob rotated to make the device creep down the bag and push the wort from the grains.

Alternatively I've though about a device that resembles two plates that are hinged at the "top". You start with the two pieces separate and join them together at the top of the bag, and then squeeze the bottom like a bellows. The "V" shape helps squeeze the wort from the bag.

I can't but imagine that the process of squeezing the bag each brew shortens the useful life of the bag. It's stretching it and placing it under pressure.

Missed this one when I posted my response, and yes, I know it's a couple days old, but I have to respond.

I've always understood that no-sparge = full volume mash. I've never heard of no-sparging at a ratio like that unless it's a full-volume mash for a big-ass barleywine or imperial stout.

Also, you missed the pourover sparge, which can be done with the bag suspended over the kettle or in a separate vessel. In my case, I've got two buckets nestled, the interior one perforated by my drill. The bag goes in the perforated bucket, water is poured over/into the grains, and it drains into the lower bucket. The advantage of my setup is that it provides a good environment for draining and sparging without needing a hoist, making it good for stovetop BIAB. The downside is that the perforated bucket is not really useful for anything else, so it does require more equipment than a dunk sparge, which would just require the one bucket.

 

[dstockwell]

Twist and squeeze.

 

[ballsy]

Used my corona mill set up for first time last weekend, got it milled really fine. Did BIAB with my usual technique which is mash in 5 gal, then suspend and squeeze (have silicon gloves now which my hands love me for), after some good squeezes to get the large amounts of wort out the bag, I then poured 2 gal sparge over the bag and squeezed until I was getting hardly anything out. Had about 6.5 gal of wort after that. Post boil I was barely above 5gal, OG was 1.076 (it was NB AG kit calling for 1.075). It definitely seemed to be easier to squeeze with the finely milled grain rather than the coarse pre-milled stuff, plus now hitting gravity dead on instead of 10 points shy like before.

 

[TexasWine]

Used my corona mill set up for first time last weekend, got it milled really fine. Did BIAB with my usual technique which is mash in 5 gal, then suspend and squeeze (have silicon gloves now which my hands love me for), after some good squeezes to get the large amounts of wort out the bag, I then poured 2 gal sparge over the bag and squeezed until I was getting hardly anything out. Had about 6.5 gal of wort after that. Post boil I was barely above 5gal, OG was 1.076 (it was NB AG kit calling for 1.075). It definitely seemed to be easier to squeeze with the finely milled grain rather than the coarse pre-milled stuff, plus now hitting gravity dead on instead of 10 points shy like before.

Instead of squeezing, and since you're already sparging, why not just pour water over the top until you hit your desired preboil volume? It'll save you some effort and your efficiency will not go down. Instead, if my understanding is correct, it should increase.

Edit: I think I've come to the conclusion that anyone who does a pour over sparge with BIAB should not squeeze. What's the point if you can just pour a little more water over the grain to hit your volume? It's kind of like a BIAB fly sparge.

 

[ballsy]

Instead of squeezing, and since you're already sparging, why not just pour water over the top until you hit your desired preboil volume? It'll save you some effort and your efficiency will not go down. Instead, if my understanding is correct, it should increase.

That's true, I just feel like when the bag is cinched and hanging that when I pour the sparge water over it it isn't really making it's way to the grain in the center....ideally it would be great to have bag open while grain sits in a basket like some do, then the sparge water can be evenly distributed throughout the grain....probably just perception though. Plus I just bought the silicon gloves and need to make use of the money spent on them hahaha. In all honestly though, it's a good point other than the efficiency increasing? Confused how not squeezing would increase the efficiency over squeezing. As I continue with my now finely milled crushes, I will certainly experiment and find out the least labor intensive way.

Edit: Maybe next batch I will do the pour over without squeezing and see if I hit the kits OG like I did with this last one. Only thing is I am limited to 2 gallons of sparge water (would need to buy bigger pot to heat it in) meaning I would likely need to mash in higher than 5 gal volume. Ideally I would rather not thin out the mash any further, and have more sparge water to pour over...

 

[TexasWine]

Confused how not squeezing would increase the efficiency over squeezing. As I continue with my now finely milled crushes, I will certainly experiment and find out the least labor intensive way.

Not squeezing would mean you use more water in rinsing the grains to hit your pre boil volume. More water used in the rinse equals less sugar left in the grains. At least that's my theory! Always willing to have someone tell me otherwise.

Edit: My theory assumes the sparge is more like a fly sparge as opposed to a pour over and let it drip dry. You just pour a little at a time, non-stop, until the volumes are hit. Then move the still dripping bag away from the kettle.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I squeeze it like I don't want it testifying against me.