To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

[tallguybrewing]

i couldn't spare the time to read all 27 pages of messages on this thread, but I did get a wealth of info from the couple that I did look at.
Good to know about the lack of need for secondary most of the time. I am planning to dry hop this most recent batch of what I'm calling Half-Assed IPA, but it sounds like I can just toss that batch of hop pellets right into the primary and wait some more. Thanks to everyone for their help, even with beginners like me.

 

[jdubb75]

i couldn't spare the time to read all 27 pages of messages on this thread, but I did get a wealth of info from the couple that I did look at.
Good to know about the lack of need for secondary most of the time. I am planning to dry hop this most recent batch of what I'm calling Half-Assed IPA, but it sounds like I can just toss that batch of hop pellets right into the primary and wait some more. Thanks to everyone for their help, even with beginners like me.

That's exactly what I've been doing...and with good results.

 

[AdamWiz]

What about headspace concerns? I usually secondary anything that will be sitting longer than 2 weeks or so. NOT because I'm afraid of the autolysis monster, but because I don't want my beer sitting for very long with as much headspace as is required in a primary fermenter. I mean, most of us ferment 5 gallon batches in a minimum of a 6.5 gallon container. I know that during vigorous fermentation CO2 will fill this space, but I don't like the idea of letting my beer sit for a month after that with a gallon and a half of headspace. But I haven't heard anyone from the anti-secondary club report oxidation issues, so this is not a problem apparently. I suppose racking beer to a secondary probably can introduce just as much oxygen though. While it's good to know that you CAN leave your beer in primary for an extended period without negative results, I still feel that secondaries result in clear beer faster(and I have tried both ways). It seems that there is a hint of arrogance to the anti-secondary club. Somewhere along the line, they jumped from "you don't NEED a secondary to make good, clear beer" to "if you use a secondary you are a sucker that has no idea what you are doing" (*not necessarily referring specifically to things said in this thread, just the general attitude out there amongst some people on this and other message boards.)

 

[Piratwolf]

Adam, I hear what you're saying about what may be a hint of arrogance. I can't speak for others--and to be honest, don't really care what others do to their own beer--but I will say that as a pro-primary fermenter, it's not arrogance but a mix of relief and irritation in finding that the 2ndary mantra wasn't really true for a lot of reasons. I read 2-3 books before ever brewing and was indoctrinated by the secondary camp, so to read here and then discover for myself thru experiment led to a strong reaction.

That being said,i do want to do a side-by-side comparison to see clarity effects for my own process.

Cheers!

"All your home brew are belong to us!"

 

[jdubb75]

What about headspace concerns? I usually secondary anything that will be sitting longer than 2 weeks or so. NOT because I'm afraid of the autolysis monster, but because I don't want my beer sitting for very long with as much headspace as is required in a primary fermenter. I mean, most of us ferment 5 gallon batches in a minimum of a 6.5 gallon container. I know that during vigorous fermentation CO2 will fill this space, but I don't like the idea of letting my beer sit for a month after that with a gallon and a half of headspace. But I haven't heard anyone from the anti-secondary club report oxidation issues, so this is not a problem apparently. I suppose racking beer to a secondary probably can introduce just as much oxygen though. While it's good to know that you CAN leave your beer in primary for an extended period without negative results, I still feel that secondaries result in clear beer faster(and I have tried both ways). It seems that there is a hint of arrogance to the anti-secondary club. Somewhere along the line, they jumped from "you don't NEED a secondary to make good, clear beer" to "if you use a secondary you are a sucker that has no idea what you are doing" (*not necessarily referring specifically to things said in this thread, just the general attitude out there amongst some people on this and other message boards.)

That headspace would still contain a nice blanket of CO2 and should do no harm. If you transfer to secondary, your beer will be setting under a blanket of oxygen unless you purge the headspace with CO2.

 

[AdamWiz]

That headspace would still contain a nice blanket of CO2 and should do no harm. If you transfer to secondary, your beer will be setting under a blanket of oxygen unless you purge the headspace with CO2.

This makes a lot of sense. Not sure why I didn't think about it that way. I do make sure that when I secondary I top it up so there is minimal headspace, but I'm starting to think that I may be better off leaving it in the primary. Even though there is a lot of headspace, there is still a lot of CO2 in there from the primary fermentation to keep oxygen off the beer. I think for my next few brews I'm going to go with no secondary, just extended primaries to see if there is any improvement.

 

[mcginnis842]

As far as o2 in secondaries, I've always noticed some co2 released despite FG being reached and stable. So I don't think that's an issue.

I secondary only out of habit and not fear of yeast dying. I like to do primaries in glass carboys to watch the fermentation but after just move it to plastics and leave it.

I never worry about picking up a little sediment either. A little yeast is never a bad thing to have.

 

[10ACbrew]

Hal2418 in post #105 makes great point about yeast strain being important as to when you can rack from primary to keg/bottle. Kolsch yeast (029) has a gentle fermentation and will take a good while to be ready. On other hand, English Ale yeast (002), which will be in blowoff tube in 36 hours, will clear rapidly and leave bottom of primary looking like it has concrete hardened in it.
Not disputing anyone's argument here, but varying factors can contribute to when beer is actually ready to keg/bottle.
As for me, the four weeks in primary seems to be a reasonable amount of time for most ales to turn the corner without going past point of no return.

 

[moti_mo]

This makes a lot of sense. Not sure why I didn't think about it that way. I do make sure that when I secondary I top it up so there is minimal headspace, but I'm starting to think that I may be better off leaving it in the primary. Even though there is a lot of headspace, there is still a lot of CO2 in there from the primary fermentation to keep oxygen off the beer. I think for my next few brews I'm going to go with no secondary, just extended primaries to see if there is any improvement.

It all depends on your fermenter too. If you ferment in a glass carboy or a better bottle with a good airlock, then there really should be NO oxygen left in the head space after primary fermentation is done. The beer pushes out a lot of CO2 during primary fermentation, which in turn pushes out all of the oxygen. So in this case, its not really a "blanket of CO2", its just that your head-space is literally full of CO2.

Now if you're using a plastic bucket, the same would be the case, but the seals on the buckets are less solid and more permeable to oxygen from outside the fermenter getting into the fermenter through poor seals.

I use a glass carboy with a 3-piece airlock, and I've left plenty of beers in primary for several months (up to 3.5) with zero noticeable oxidation. (I have had one beer that became oxidized b/c of an airlock drying up, so I definitely know what to look for w.r.t. oxidation flavors)

 

[natewv]

I asked this in the yeast washing thread but will ask here too. My 1st AG and 1st no secondary brew was the same brew, a Stone ruination IPA Clone (so lots of trub). I ended up with over a gallon of trub, how much success do Primary only AG brewers have in harvesting/washing their yeast when there is so so so much extra ****e at the bottom of the fermenter upon tranferring to bottling bucket or keg...and in particular what steps do you take to do so?

 

[two_hearted]

I asked this in the yeast washing thread but will ask here too. My 1st AG and 1st no secondary brew was the same brew, a Stone ruination IPA Clone (so lots of trub). I ended up with over a gallon of trub, how much success do Primary only AG brewers have in harvesting/washing their yeast when there is so so so much extra ****e at the bottom of the fermenter upon tranferring to bottling bucket or keg...and in particular what steps do you take to do so?

I think maybe the problem lies somewhere in your process. Do you whirlpool or vorlauf? Is your racking cane going straight to the bottom of your kettle or hovering over the hop sludge/hot break material?

I haven't had any issues unless it's a hop bomb.

 

[natewv]

I think maybe the problem lies somewhere in your process. Do you whirlpool or vorlauf? Is your racking cane going straight to the bottom of your kettle or hovering over the hop sludge/hot break material?

I haven't had any issues unless it's a hop bomb.

I'm confused about what you are asking? I do BIAB for now, and admittedly did not strain the cooled wort prior to pitching, on this batch which I've done in recent batches.

With no secondary I simply have more trub.

I don't use a racking cane to go from kettle to primary, I 'vigorously pour it to aerate the sh*t out of it. I don't understand when my racking cane would be invlooved?

 

[two_hearted]

I'm confused about what you are asking? I do BIAB for now, and admittedly did not strain the cooled wort prior to pitching, on this batch which I've done in recent batches.

With no secondary I simply have more trub.

I don't use a racking cane to go from kettle to primary, I 'vigorously pour it to aerate the sh*t out of it. I don't understand when my racking cane would be invlooved?

When your boil is finished and after you cool to pitching temps you are left with all kinds of solids at the bottom of your kettle (hop sludge, hot break material, grain particles that didn't stay in you bag). Swirling the wort vigorously and letting it sit covered for about 20 min should make all of that stuff compact into a cone or mound in the middle of your kettle. If you rack it to your fermenter instead of dumping it all in you will have much less trub in your primary. You can aerate be sloshing it all around or whisking it. Better yet you can get an aeration system with oxygen or an aquarium pump. There are some great how to guides on here for that.

 

[Josephbrew]

Has anyone here has ferment a batch for 4 weeks or so and then re-use the same yeast for another batch. Re-use meaning as just pour the next brew on top of what is left in the carboy or should I wash the yeast instead?.
I want to do first a batch of kolsch then I want to use the same yeast for a batch of Amber Ale. Just wondering cause that will save me some time and money.

 

[Denny]

Has anyone here has ferment a batch for 4 weeks or so and then re-use the same yeast for another batch. Re-use meaning as just pour the next brew on top of what is left in the carboy

Yep, frequently. Not a problem.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

Has anyone here has ferment a batch for 4 weeks or so and then re-use the same yeast for another batch. Re-use meaning as just pour the next brew on top of what is left in the carboy or should I wash the yeast instead?.
I want to do first a batch of kolsch then I want to use the same yeast for a batch of Amber Ale. Just wondering cause that will save me some time and money.

Give this a read when you have some time...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/

You'll get more opinions than you can stand, but it's worth reading to form your own opinion.

 

[Revvy]

Give this a read when you have some time...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/

You'll get more opinions than you can stand, but it's worth reading to form your own opinion.

I dunno though, if Denny says he pitches on to yeast cakes, I wouldn't necessarily discount it.




























Not many folks get a yeast named after them.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

I dunno though, if Denny says he pitches on to yeast cakes, I wouldn't necessarily discount it.




























Not many folks get a yeast named after them.

just providing info.

 

[rwberne]

Ever since reading Revvy and crew's recommendations I have skipped the secondary, and all of my brews have been great - and clear. But now I am planning to try my first lager. All I read on lagers suggest that the long cold lagering is done in a secondary - but is that because they are from the "old school", or is it because a secondary IS in fact the best bet for lagering?

 

[Revvy]

Ever since reading Revvy and crew's recommendations I have skipped the secondary, and all of my brews have been great - and clear. But now I am planning to try my first lager. All I read on lagers suggest that the long cold lagering is done in a secondary - but is that because they are from the "old school", or is it because a secondary IS in fact the best bet for lagering?

I kn ow a few folks have talked about lagering in primary...But on the rare lager I make I still go old school and use a carboy.

 

[rwberne]

Revvy -

Thanks - seemed to make sense to use the secondary, but I feel better hearing about it from you! Happy New Year!

RBerne

 

[Darwin18]

I primary my lagers and then move them to a keg to carbonate and settle at serving temperature (36ish). I don't think a secondary is necessary for lagers.

 

[rwberne]

Darwin - I don't keg, I bottle, so I have to have that 4 week or so period in the 30s. That's why my thought is to rack to secondary, drop temp in my freezer to 38 or so, and let it sit.

 

[Darwin18]

Opps, missed that you bottled rwberne. I think your plan to rack to secondary and cold crash sounds pretty good.

 

[cameronwoolery]

QUESTION!

I like this and it should save me alot of time and effort. However, when using a secondary for my wheat that i want to add oranges to, do I use whole or half oranges, or jest the peels?

Any recomendations?

 

[JonK331]

Or just lager in the keg or bottle.

 

[Calder]

QUESTION!

I like this and it should save me alot of time and effort. However, when using a secondary for my wheat that i want to add oranges to, do I use whole or half oranges, or jest the peels?

Any recomendations?

Depends on what you want, but most people would just use the zest.

I've never heard of anyone putting whole oranges or orange juice in beer. But I guess you could.

 

[benzy4010]

I just brewed my first batch. I just moved it to a secondary fermenter... So this is a step that should be ignored? So how long is a good time period for primary? Doesn't secondary help clear your beer of sediment?

 

[RM-MN]

I just brewed my first batch. I just moved it to a secondary fermenter... So this is a step that should be ignored? So how long is a good time period for primary? Doesn't secondary help clear your beer of sediment?

Time is what clears your beer. It clears regardless of whether its in the primary or secondary. If you are careful when racking to the bottling bucket almost no yeast that has been settled will come along with your beer. If you do get yeast transferred it settles very quickly in the bottling bucket anyway. I primary 3 to 4 weeks and get clear beer.

 

[Satisfaction]

Geeze, thanks for to this thread I was up until 3 am after I accidentally saw it when I was about to go to bed.

Good read..