To keg or not to keg??

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Keg or Bottles for first timer?

  • KEG. buy the kegging equipment cuz you'll eventually buy it anyway

  • Bottles. Its cheaper and better to start off with

  • Other. please explain


Results are only viewable after voting.
I agree with others that getting a few brews under your belt first is a good idea.

As a beginning brewer, there's a ton of info to digest and come brew day, you'll be working out your own process in regards to your workflow and equipment limitations. Learning about all the aspects of kegging while learning how to brew is a lot of info to retain. After making about 6 batches I decided to switch to kegging and I'm still tweaking my cleaning/sanitizing methods as well as pressurizing, keg temp, and serving line length. At some point I may do both because I like bottle-aging big beers like Belgians, Strong Ales, etc.
 
That's always been my philosophy. Learning to brew & keg at the same time is a bit much. Beside learning if you like brewing enough to continue. Or at least if you're good enough at it to not make 6-or more batches of rotten T-rex whizz before finally giving up. I will say this though. Having some basic cooking skills really helps.
 
Seriously, just start off bottling.

A co-worker of mine was intrigued when he found out I was a homebrewer. He asked me all about the process and I gave him a few beers.

A few months later he had an all-grain RIMS system, 6 kegs, and a keezer.

He brewed 4 batches or so, then just stopped. He didn't drink enough, or didn't like what he was making, he got bored with it, or it was just too much work.

A year later, he was still stuck at those 4 beers, some of them he dumped, and a bunch of equipment that he will probably never use again.

I think his story is rare, and maybe he had money to burn, but still, if he had started off bottling, I doubt it would have gone so far.
 
Seriously, just start off bottling.

A co-worker of mine was intrigued when he found out I was a homebrewer. He asked me all about the process and I gave him a few beers.

A few months later he had an all-grain RIMS system, 6 kegs, and a keezer.

He brewed 4 batches or so, then just stopped. He didn't drink enough, or didn't like what he was making, he got bored with it, or it was just too much work.

A year later, he was still stuck at those 4 beers, some of them he dumped, and a bunch of equipment that he will probably never use again.

I think his story is rare, and maybe he had money to burn, but still, if he had started off bottling, I doubt it would have gone so far.

Where does he live and is he looking to sell his stuff?
 
Why would you not keg. You can wash 48 little bottles or one big bottle. I started kegging and started Keggle Brewing when my wife stopped helping clean bottles and the rest is history
 
Why would you not keg. You can wash 48 little bottles or one big bottle. I started kegging and started Keggle Brewing when my wife stopped helping clean bottles and the rest is history

Hundreds of dollars just to carbonate & put beer in my glass?

There are lines & taps & ball locks & other things to clean as well for kegs.

Bottles fit in my fridge. A keg doesn't. Oh, more money to make/buy something that will hold my keg...

Overall, no thanks. No offense to people who do keg, but it ain't for me, and since you asked, I gave a few reasons.

;)
 
Good reasons. It's a lot of other things to clean & maintain. They're cool, but a lot of added expense, cleaning & maintenance. But kegs would take up less space than 5-6 batches + of boxed bottles. That's the paradox for me.
 
Hundreds of dollars just to carbonate & put beer in my glass?

What if you only want a half-glass? Or if a friend wants a sample of your Saison but isn't sure she'll like it, so you don't want to waste a whole bottle? What if you start to explain to your friend how to pour the bottle without disturbing the sediment and they say, "Gunk on the bottom of the bottle? Eeew. No thanks. Homebrewing is gross. I'll stick with Dogfish Head."

And think of all the money you'll save in bottle caps. When you factor that in, kegging pays for itself after just a few hundred batches!

There are lines & taps & ball locks & other things to clean as well for kegs.

Having done both, I can say there is much less to clean with kegs.

Bottles fit in my fridge. A keg doesn't.

Sure it does. Take out the shelves. But with kegs, I makes more sense to use a chest freezer on a temperature controller anyway. Everything fits much more nicely.

Oh, more money to make/buy something that will hold my keg...

I got my serving freezer off Kijiji for $100. STC-1000 was maybe another $50 in parts.
 
Bottom line: most keggers have bottled at some point. Bottles may not have kegged (thus have only half the info).

Have we heard from anyone that bottled, then kegged, then went back to kegging?

I think the best reason against it is if you don't have room for a dedicated fridge. It's probably not worth it if you're giving up all the space in your only fridge.

The cost can be spread out. The cleaning is not any worse than bottles. You have to store 100s of bottles. All those things even out.
 
The only reasons to start with bottling, imo, is if you dont have the cash or arent sure that youre going to stick with the hobby. Both very good reasons!

Bottles were by far my least favorite part of brewing. Cleaning, filling, storing, making a mess. Making sure you have enough when it comes time. Hoarding used bottles. Waiting 2-3 weeks to carbonate. It was just really inconvenient.

Plus, with kegs, you can try different carbonation levels. Its hard to understate uow much if a difference the carb level makes in the perception of flavors in your beer.
 
Can't see how there's " much less to clean with kegs"? you have to clean all the keg parts, lines, taps, etc. I just store clean bottles, so I sanitize & fill, bottling bucket & filler. And pay for itself in a few hundred batches? Caps cost a couple bucks per bag of 144. That's like 3 batches worth. And good racking process means no more than a dusting on the bottom of the bottle. A kegging system can cost around a grand new with a 3-tap kegerator, kegs, regulators, lines, etc. Cool & compact, but not cheap. Buy used, get less time ( in theory) before breakdown can occur.
 
Can't see how there's " much less to clean with kegs"? you have to clean all the keg parts, lines, taps, etc.

Not every time.

When a keg kicks, I just leave it in the fridge until I a) need it for another batch, or b) have a couple to clean at once.

When it's time to clean the keg, I vent it, remove the lid, pour in some hot water and swirl it around, then dump it to get the bulk of any remaining yeast or trub. I then pour in a couple gallons of hot OxyClean solution, put the lid back on, and give the keg a good shake. I dump it out, pour in a couple gallons of clean, hot water, seal it up and shake again to rinse. I dump, then give it one more hit with clean hot water to make sure I've gotten all the OxyClean residue. Finally, I dump out the water and pour in a couple quarts of StarSan. Seal it up one last time, shake it up good, and hit it with 10 psi of CO2. I then connect a spare beverage line and drain a quart of the StarSan out through it (to sanitize inside the pickup tube). The keg then goes into storage until I need it. The whole routine takes maybe 10 minutes.

Every few (5?) batches, I might do the full deep-cleaning routine. In that case, I simply disassemble the whole keg and throw all the parts inside, then fill it up to the brim with a hot OxyClean solution and let everything soak overnight. The next day, I rinse everything, replace any O-rings that are looking worn, lube everything up with keg lube, reassemble, sanitize, pressurize, and set it aside until it's needed.

My serving lines get flushed with hot water using one of those modified 1 gallon sprayers. My taps get flushed with StarSan now and then, for example once I've cleaned/sanitized/pressurized a keg, I might hook it up to my kegerator and draw some more StarSan from the keg, through the tap.

It's nothing at all like cleaning, rinsing, and sanitizing 48 bottles, one by one.

I just store clean bottles, so I sanitize & fill, bottling bucket & filler.

Same here, my kegs are stored already sanitized. Kegging day consists of:


  • Tossing my autosiphon and a piece of foil into my bucket of StarSan.
  • Selecting an empty keg, purging the CO2 pressure, removing the lid, throwing it into the bucket of StarSan.
  • Dumping out any remaining StarSan from the keg.
  • Draping the output end of the autosiphon into the keg, then removing the airlock from the carboy (I store them already elevated on a counter top after primary fermentation winds down so I don't have to disturb them on kegging day), inserting the autosiphon, and giving it a pump.
  • After the beer has started flowing, I take the sanitized foil and loosely cover the mouth of the keg just to keep random airborne stuff from floating in. I might also hook up the CO2 tank and give it a couple bursts of CO2 while it's filling, to minimize oxidation.
  • As the beer level drops, I adjust the height of the autosiphon. To kill time (it takes 5 minutes or so, I haven't yet sprung for the wide-bore autosiphon), I take a Q-tip and some keg lube, and lube up the main O-ring on the keg's lid.
  • Once all the beer is in the keg, I pop the lid back on, pressurize the keg, pull the pressure relief valve 5 times to purge any oxygen, then put the keg in a temperature-controlled freezer on CO2 to chill and carb up.
  • Clean the autosiphon and carboy, but you'd have to do that too (in addition to your bottling bucket).

Kegging a batch of beer in this way takes me at the very most, 15 minutes. How long does it take to bottle 5 gallons of beer?

And pay for itself in a few hundred batches? Caps cost a couple bucks per bag of 144. That's like 3 batches worth.

That was a joke. :)

And good racking process means no more than a dusting on the bottom of the bottle.

Still enough to make the beer hazy for the uninitiated who just dump the whole thing in a glass like any other beer.

A kegging system can cost around a grand new with a 3-tap kegerator, kegs, regulators, lines, etc. Cool & compact, but not cheap. Buy used, get less time ( in theory) before breakdown can occur.

You don't need to get that fancy. A couple of kegs, a CO2 tank and regulator, a temperature controlled freezer, and a few hoses and connectors can get you started for less than $500.

To be honest, the main reason I moved to kegging was because I was unsatisfied with the consistency of the carbonation of my beers. Some would be overcarbed, some would be disappointingly undercarbed, with no way to correct it. Kegging allows me to adjust the carbonation level to whatever I want. It also allows me to completely protect my beer from oxidation at every stage of the process, whereas bottling introduces at least a small amount of oxidation.
 
I recently bought a 2 1/2 gal keg. Kegging is definitely easier than bottling. However, I still like to give away some of my brew to neighbors and friends. I can keg half and bottle half.
 
Get one of these and all your cleaning the system worries go away.Another reason I like using sanke over corny's.Fill tank with water and oxiclean,connect to coupler,open tap...done.Fill tank with water and do it again to flush.Could not get any easier.Cleaning the keg: Fill halfway with water and oxiclean in bathtub,shake it around..easy.Also you can empty a 5 gallon batch into a keg in EXACTLY one minute with a 1/2 Racking cane...again so easy.

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/cleaning/pressurized/completekits/5LCBT.shtml
 
You can empty a 5 gallon batch into a keg in EXACTLY one minute with a 1/2 Racking cane...again so easy.

I wouldn't have thought there was that much of a difference between my 3/8" auto siphon and a 1/2" bore one, but you've convinced me. I just pulled the trigger on a 1/2" one with 8' of tubing, should be here in a couple of weeks.
 
I wouldn't have thought there was that much of a difference between my 3/8" auto siphon and a 1/2" bore one, but you've convinced me. I just pulled the trigger on a 1/2" one with 8' of tubing, should be here in a couple of weeks.
100% night and and day.My old siphon got infected or I would have never bought a new one.Best infection I ever got LOL..You'll love it
 
I have spigots on my fermenters, so I rarely need the auto siphon. I hate those things. It sounds like some of you cut corners by not cleaning the whole system every time? There's an awful lot of defense for kegging around here in an attempt to justify the expense. Many of us can't afford it & Don't like buying used. More often as not, people sell things because there's something wrong with it, like cars & houses. Not because they got plenty of money & just want a new one. So that's got to be a part of the equation. It just seems that not cleaning everything every time is asking for trouble? Waiting till 5 batches are gone could be several months, depending on how long it takes to drink 5-5 gallon batches.
 
It sounds like some of you cut corners by not cleaning the whole system every time? It just seems that not cleaning everything every time is asking for trouble?

Why? The only thing in it before was beer, and it wasn't infected, so what's in there that's going to contaminate the next batch? If there was something in there, why didn't it contaminate the batch that had already been in there for several weeks/months?

I don't clean my HLT between batches either, because the only thing ever in it is plain old water.
 
Because things could get in there between changing kegs & that sort of thing. Then things can build up over time. and it can only take one microbe that you'd never notice. They can live a certain amount of time without one of the environmentals they need to multiply. Food, moisture, air & warmth. Why do you think dry yeast can last so long?
 
There's an awful lot of defense for kegging around here in an attempt to justify the expense.

This attitude has always slightly bothered me in just about any context... Money shaming.

FWIW I was gifted my kegging kit so no expense justification needed. Now having done both bottling and kegging and knowing what I know now, I would gladly save some scratch and purchase the equipment my self if I had to. And I'd consider my self somewhat stingy when it comes to this hobby, there isn't a piece of equipment in my collection that isn't DIY'ed, purchased used, on sale, ebay, etc.
 
Because things could get in there between changing kegs & that sort of thing. Then things can build up over time.

Right. That's why I said I do the thorough cleaning every 5 or so batches, to "reset" everything back to pristinely clean.

and it can only take one microbe that you'd never notice.

Well, I don't know what to tell you, other than I've brewed over 100 batches and never had a single infection, so my current cleaning regimen seems to be working just fine.

And I didn't say I never clean at all - I said I do a wash/rinse/sanitization of the keg between batches, but don't break down the posts and replace the O-rings every time. The "gas-in" post has no reason to ever get dirty (it's perpetually underneath the quick-disconnect fitting), and the "liquid-out" post has StarSan flushed through it as part of the last step of my cleaning/sanitizing. And even still, I'll periodically do the full breakdown, clean inside the posts with a Q-tip, replace poppets, etc.

The proof is in the pudding, no infections. Full breakdown and thorough cleaning every time is overkill. The only thing that was in the keg an hour ago was beer, and the only thing I'm putting in it is more beer, so what's in there that is going to spoil my next batch?
 
Hundreds of dollars just to carbonate & put beer in my glass?

There are lines & taps & ball locks & other things to clean as well for kegs.

Bottles fit in my fridge. A keg doesn't. Oh, more money to make/buy something that will hold my keg...

Overall, no thanks. No offense to people who do keg, but it ain't for me, and since you asked, I gave a few reasons.

;)
It does not take an investment of hundreds of dollars to get into kegging. I started kegging back in the 90s with just a couple of pin lock kegs and some connectors I bought for next to nothing, a used 5# C02 tank, and a portable 1 tap jockey box I made using a small cooler I already owned and cold plate and plastic tap a member of my homebrew club sold me for cheap. I was in grad school at the time and believe me I had a very limited budget as my wife was pretty much the sole breadwinner so my overall investment was less than $100. If I was putting together a similar system now I bet I could do it for less than $200 by scrounging on craigslist and from brew friends.

Now I make 10 gallon batches and generally bottle 5 and keg 5 and the dirty little secret of kegging is that the kegged version of the same beer almost always tastes better to me. I still bottle though because I have better luck sending bottle conditioned beers to contests which are often judged long after the last entry submission date and those beers seem to hold up better than bottles I have filled from kegs and entered.

As far as comparing the two methods with regards to cleaning and convenience I can tell you as someone who actually does both that there is no question that kegging is the clear winner. You seem pretty adamant about sticking with bottling and certainly to each his own, but maybe consider toning down the anti-kegging rhetoric until you've actually tried it?
 
I have spigots on my fermenters, so I rarely need the auto siphon. I hate those things. It sounds like some of you cut corners by not cleaning the whole system every time? There's an awful lot of defense for kegging around here in an attempt to justify the expense. Many of us can't afford it & Don't like buying used. More often as not, people sell things because there's something wrong with it, like cars & houses. Not because they got plenty of money & just want a new one. So that's got to be a part of the equation. It just seems that not cleaning everything every time is asking for trouble? Waiting till 5 batches are gone could be several months, depending on how long it takes to drink 5-5 gallon batches.
If your into bottling have at it.To each there own.It what makes the world go round.That being said,I built my original kegerator for home brew then got out of it for a few years.The money I saved brewing AND still using the kegerator to buy 1/2 barrels instead of 12 packs/cases over the years paid for my equipment many times over.And I have something to sell and will get half or more back on my original investment if I choose to sell.Its a no loose situation. Pulling a tap in your house has a cool factor you cant get from bottles too:D And the cleaner I use in post #134 has never let me down and is 10,000 times cleaner then any bar tap anywhere on the planet,and take about 5 minutes.
The only reason I can see bottling is:
A-They enjoy the process of bottling,and that's perfectly fine
B- They don't want to lay out the cash or have the room for a kegerator/bar
I have found no downside to kegging and in the entire brewing process there really not a lot of money to get going,maybe $350 for everything if you do some looking around.And buying used is not always bad.The reg I got here for a good price(High purity reg used in baby incubators in hospitals and is dead accurate) is going strong
 
This attitude has always slightly bothered me in just about any context... Money shaming.

FWIW I was gifted my kegging kit so no expense justification needed. Now having done both bottling and kegging and knowing what I know now, I would gladly save some scratch and purchase the equipment my self if I had to. And I'd consider my self somewhat stingy when it comes to this hobby, there isn't a piece of equipment in my collection that isn't DIY'ed, purchased used, on sale, ebay, etc.

I don't agree with money shaming (and I'm not sure uniondr was doing that), but this is a legitimate concern for people who don't have the money to buy the equipment needed to get started with kegging.

If my wife hadn't decided to stay at home when our daughter was born 2.5 years ago, I'd have a kegging system by now. She and I made the exact same salaries, and since she now only works very part time from home, we don't have the disposable funds to allow me to get the kegging setup I really want (three-tap system with SS Perlicks). I could go a little cheaper with picnic taps, but even then I can't justify the cost since I know I'll want to upgrade to Perlicks at some point.
 
I wasn't shaming, or hedging prices of getting into kegging. I'd actually like to. It always irks me to buy used, since people don't usually sell things unless there's something wrong with them & they want to recoup some of their investment to buy new one(s). And I always thought that, even after reading about cleaning regimes, like those used at Luchow's in NYC for 100 years, that one had to be really picky about cleaning/sanitizing everything in the system.
And researching prices on the equipment, here's what I based my replies on;
Since I like to get a 3-4 batch pipeline going, A 3-tap kegerator is in order. Here's an example of models & prices; http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/kegerators/triplekegerator/index.shtml
Line cleaning equipment; http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/cleaning-equipment/hand_pump.shtml
Kegs; http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/refurbished_kegs/index.html
Regulators; http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulators/co2-premium.shtml
http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulators/secondary.shtml
Besides tubing & all the little bits & pieces. These are just one place. Here's Midwest;
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/kegging/kegging-systems/5-gallon-systems-1.html
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/kegging/dispensing-serving/towers-accessories.html
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/kegging/gas-supplies/regulators-accessories.html
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/kegging/gas-supplies/gas-tanks.html
So new stuff can cost some cash I can't afford atm. And I'm leary about used. Used can be like " universal"...universally guaranteed to be a pits to get usable.
 
I don't agree with money shaming (and I'm not sure uniondr was doing that), but this is a legitimate concern for people who don't have the money to buy the equipment needed to get started with kegging.

If my wife hadn't decided to stay at home when our daughter was born 2.5 years ago, I'd have a kegging system by now. She and I made the exact same salaries, and since she now only works very part time from home, we don't have the disposable funds to allow me to get the kegging setup I really want (three-tap system with SS Perlicks). I could go a little cheaper with picnic taps, but even then I can't justify the cost since I know I'll want to upgrade to Perlicks at some point.

Sure. Everyone should stay within their means. I don't think any one is saying it's so awesome it's worth going broke over. This is merely a hobby after all... That said, it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than golf! :mug:

I was just trying to point out that my preference of kegging vs bottling is not biased by post purchase rationalization.
 
So i don't really want to bottle anything anymore. Nowadays i am thinking about brewing a Mikkeller Beer Geek Breakfast clone which is a ~7.5% ABV stout with added brewed coffee around bottling/kegging.
Could i drink this beer after 2-3 weeks of primary and 1 day in the keg or these styles really need the bottle aging?
 
So i don't really want to bottle anything anymore. Nowadays i am thinking about brewing a Mikkeller Beer Geek Breakfast clone which is a ~7.5% ABV stout with added brewed coffee around bottling/kegging.
Could i drink this beer after 2-3 weeks of primary and 1 day in the keg or these styles really need the bottle aging?

You can drink it at 3 weeks, sure. It might get better with age, but that's entirely up to you.
 
So i don't really want to bottle anything anymore. Nowadays i am thinking about brewing a Mikkeller Beer Geek Breakfast clone which is a ~7.5% ABV stout with added brewed coffee around bottling/kegging.
Could i drink this beer after 2-3 weeks of primary and 1 day in the keg or these styles really need the bottle aging?

Where'd you find your self the cat poop coffee? Your question is a little off topic though, you might want to start your self a new thread.
 
You can drink it at 3 weeks, sure. It might get better with age, but that's entirely up to you.
Could i age it in the primary?

Where'd you find your self the cat poop coffee? Your question is a little off topic though, you might want to start your self a new thread.

I've been in the coffee game for a while, there are much better beans for way cheaper than Kopi, i am thinking about brewing an acidic filter coffee using some Ethiopian beans and adding that.
(btw from the number of replies i though that this is kind of a general kegging thread)
 
Why would you not keg.

Hundreds of dollars just to carbonate & put beer in my glass?

There are lines & taps & ball locks & other things to clean as well for kegs.

Bottles fit in my fridge. A keg doesn't. Oh, more money to make/buy something that will hold my keg...

Overall, no thanks. No offense to people who do keg, but it ain't for me, and since you asked, I gave a few reasons.

;)

Those are my reasons. No one's reasons for kegging are going to change my mind, but I like how many people had to respond to my response.

:mug:
 
Both are great! I just split a champagne corker with a buddy and I'm planning on cork and a cage for wild beers and Belgians. I've got beer in bottles legs and barrels. Just go for it!
 
Thank you gentlemen, lots of great information here for me (and anyone who reads this) to make some educated decisions.

Bottles definitely seems the way to go for me at this point, with my lack of knowledge and funds.

I hope one day to get to kegging as it seems better IMHO.

I love the passion for both, kegging and bottling,
that I read in these comments and hope one day to be balls deep in this hobby
and brew up some monsters up to par or even better than the commercial brews I love,
as well as some simple great tasting smaller beers.

again thank you for this great info.
This thread turned out much better than i anticipated.

I'm sure i'll be back to this thread in a couple years when I'm ready for kegging.
 
I have these kits for a good price http://www.kegglebrewing.com/Three-...ck-Kit-DRIP-TRAY-NOT-INCLUDED-COPY_p_411.html. Check craigslist for a cheap fridge. There is nothing wrong with used corny kegs. You can start with a single keg kit for less than $200.00. I know that's more than some can afford but start small build up to what you want. Most of us started brewing on the stove and plastic buckets to ferment in.
 
Bottle first, just make sure you use a no rinse sanitizer like starsan. I used bleach first and it is a pain in the ass to rinse and you still get off flavors
 
Served my first draft beer last night. Man that feels cool. Some of the guys didn't know it was homebrew. Thought I'd filled the kegs at a local microbrew. Thanks for all the help HBT. I've learned mostly from here that's got me this far.
 
Buy the keg stuff. You can always bottle if you want to but sometimes you don't have time to wait the 3 weeks for the beer to condition out. Having options is always better than not having options.
 
If my wife hadn't decided to stay at home when our daughter was born 2.5 years ago, I'd have a kegging system by now. She and I made the exact same salaries, and since she now only works very part time from home, we don't have the disposable funds to allow me to get the kegging setup I really want (three-tap system with SS Perlicks). I could go a little cheaper with picnic taps, but even then I can't justify the cost since I know I'll want to upgrade to Perlicks at some point.

This is my situation... Wife stays home with the kid and works about 8 hours a week to cover some extra expenses. I'm all for kegging because it saves time in all aspects as compared to bottling. BUT you have to keep buying c02 which is about $18-20 for my 5 lb tank. A tank lasts about 4 and some times 5 beers for me. I have a very small budget to brew with so when that budget is low it's back to bottles I go. I'd rather spend that $20 on grain/hops/yeast and keep the beer flowing over spending it on the satisfaction of pulling my own pint.

Like I said in my initial post.. If you have the money to buy a draft setup then go for it so you at least have it. IDK if the OP is married, if you have kids, etc, but life throws crazy things at you and I"m happy I bought my draft setup before I had kids because there's no way I could afford it now.

One last point is you don't have to spend hundreds on a setup. If you wait and buy the parts you need as you see them, either on sale or on Craigs List, you can save a ton of money on a setup. It took me almost 2 years to get my setup together but I didn't have to spend a dime of my own money. I used bdays and xmas to get a few things, and then just kept my eye out for free visa cards for promos (like switching to verizon from comcast paid me $300, refi'ed my truck with my other bank paid me $250) and other sales on the homebrew websites. It's totally possible to make a draft setup on the cheap if you just wait and grab things as you see them. Good luck!
 
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