to batch or fly

[BonsaiBrewer]

Ok HBT freinds i havent posted much due to the fact you can find all topics by searching, but i want a little more personal feedback.
I just did my first fly sparge, all gravity fed, kinda a ghetto set up, just sparged the water on top of parchment with holes, kept a inch or two above the bed the whole time @ 170. Worked great , the problem is i got the exact same OG as when i double batch sparged. What gives?

9lbs 2 row
1 lbs munich
both the batch sparge and ghetto fly were 1.044, i do have the grain milled at the store for me sooo.....
any comments

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

For me I'm lazy, and batch sparging requires less equipment and is much shorter. I have heard that fly sparging can bump up efficiency a bit, but it's not enough of a cost savings for me to even consider it.

 

[InTheBasement]

I personally am a fan of the batch. Never did the fly, but in the end, it seems like the results I get from the batch sparge are more than adequate. Is there a reason why you want to move away from batch? Is it not meeting your needs? Or do you just want to try a new experience?

 

[max384]

I used to fly sparge. I built an awesome motorized adjustable rotating sparge arm that was a pleasure to watch in motion. However, one day I was in a hurry and did a double batch sparge instead and saved myself about 40 minutes. Weird thing was that I didn't have a drop in efficiency, so I did batch sparging for my next brew, no drip in efficiency. Well, probably 30ish batches later, and my sparge arm is collecting dust.

 

[Jwin]

IIRC, Denny Conn(put batch sparge on the map at AHA) said he found fly sparging only ever yielded him .02-.03 higher gravity on a typical gravity ale

 

[jodell]

"Fly you fools"

-Gandalf the grey

 

[JonM]

I used to fly sparge. Switched to batch sparging and shaved 45 mins or so (I don't know how long really) off my brewday time and saw no difference in the end product.

 

[jodell]

In reality, I fly sparge, but that is just because I have a herms setup and all the equipment already for it.

When I was in a cooler, I fly sparged as well, but it was a PITA. I should have just batch sparged.

 

[mrdauber64]

Full volume BIAB! I recently made the switch from batch sparging to full volume BIAB and I can honestly say it is way easier, time efficent and my efficiency has gone up by at least 7 points(74% to 81%) on average. In the summer/fall in Minnesota I would do this in my kettle, in the winter I do it in my 10 gallon round cooler. Seriously think about going this route. I always bashed BIAB because of the mess of draining and squeezing the bag but after trying it, and getting a process that works for me, it really is easy and produces great beer!

My last batch(English Barleywine with 20 lbs of grains) I did do a batch sparge combined with BIAB to make up some boil volume since I am only using a 10 gallon mash tun and wanted to do an extended boil, but even that was easier since you could drain wide open and there was no vorlaufs involved.

 

[Yooper]

I have a system ideal for fly sparging, an all electric HERMS, but I usually batch sparge because it's so must faster.

I don't get much change in efficiency, maybe 73% instead of 72%, when I fly sparge so it's pretty much the same results.

 

[BonsaiBrewer]

Thats funny, i tried this cause i thought it would yield higher efficiency, looks like my results were pretty accurate.
as far as time, yeah i think its a bit slower, but I just set it and forget it, and I have a 5 year old brew assitant that makes the time go by fast
as far as the equation goes, im not real sure whats the best way to measure this, im taking the gravity right brefore i pitch, and total volume of wort in the fermenter, this gives me efficiency of 66%, i guess this is actualy to the fermenter efficiency and not an accurate measure of the extraction, right?

side note i guess im gonna buy a mill, this seems to be the best way to control your extraction of sugar

 

[Homercidal]

Correct. You need to measure your water and grains accurately, and then measure the volume and gravity after the mash and before the boil. This will tell you your Mash Efficiency. I recommend reading up on it. There are other factors to account for like deadspace in the tun and/or hoses, etc.

Grain crush has a big impact up to a certain point, but so does pH, time, temperature, process (stirring) etc.

 

[SilverZero]

as far as the equation goes, im not real sure whats the best way to measure this, im taking the gravity right brefore i pitch, and total volume of wort in the fermenter, this gives me efficiency of 66%, i guess this is actualy to the fermenter efficiency and not an accurate measure of the extraction, right?

You have to measure your pre-boil gravity to calculate mash efficiency.

 

[Redlantern]

Recent "almost convert" from fly to batch. Currently equipped with a three tier system set for fly sparge.

I recently started draining off enough wort to set the grain bed nice and tight (drain enough so there is no liquid showing and the grains have visibly settled), then use the fly sparge set up to run the water into the mash tun without upsetting the grain bed. When enough water is in, I open the HLT valve full blast and let it all drain in. While sparge water is being introduced, the wort is running into the kettle at a quart a minute or so.

The next move is to make a sparge arm out of soft copper tube (single coil, holes drilled in the top) so I can run the sparge water in to the mash tun without metering it - just let it all run in. I like this idea as I am not handling large containers of hot water and controlling them as I pour them out. Set the HLT on the stand, open the valve and walk off.....

 

[jmark]

I fly sparge... never tried batch sparging so can't comment on the differences although I remember reading a BYO article a few years back that did some testing on the differences on the final taste, but I can't put my hands on it (I think fly came out 'slightly better' in the test but probably not enough to dissuade anyone from changing). I just use the time during fly sparging to do other things - once the grain bed is set and flow rates are lined up, it's really set-and-forget like one of the other posters mentioned.

 

[Special Hops]

Ok HBT freinds i havent posted much due to the fact you can find all topics by searching, but i want a little more personal feedback.
I just did my first fly sparge, all gravity fed, kinda a ghetto set up, just sparged the water on top of parchment with holes, kept a inch or two above the bed the whole time @ 170. Worked great , the problem is i got the exact same OG as when i double batch sparged. What gives?

9lbs 2 row
1 lbs munich
both the batch sparge and ghetto fly were 1.044, i do have the grain milled at the store for me sooo.....
any comments

Why is this a problem?

Asking this questions is like asking
- iPhone / Android
- Ales / Lagers
- OJ with Pulp / without
- Butter side up / Butter side down
- Xbox / Playstation

You get the point.

 

[eric19312]

I started with batch sparge but switched to fly sparge when I built my recirculating system. I got about 8 point efficiency bump but that could be from switching from rectangular cooler with a braid to a full false bottom MLT.

Also this was for a slow run off from the batch sparge. I know Denny says it can run off as fast as you can after vorloff but in my system I got about a 10 point efficiency improvement by batch sparging slowly (went from about 60% to about 70%) for higher gravity beers..

I don't really see any difference in time between batch and fly sparging regardless of runoff speed since it takes me a certain amount of time to get from mash temps to a boil. I do 11 gallon batches (13-14 gal pre boil) on natural gas and takes about 45 minutes to reach a boil. I start heating the BK when I have about 3 gallons collected and when I finish the 60 minute total sparge the kettle is just about at a boil.

 

[Steveruch]

I get the same O G from batch as I used to get from fly, so the time savings is the deciding factor for me.

 

[Brewski_59]

I'm using a ten gallon round cooler. To me this is ideal for fly sparging. Haven't tried batching with it. Its just easy for me to set the flow rate from the HLT and then let the run off occur. When you batch sparge what do you do? just fill the tun with water stir drain and repeat? how is this faster?

 

[doug293cz]

Ok HBT freinds i havent posted much due to the fact you can find all topics by searching, but i want a little more personal feedback.
I just did my first fly sparge, all gravity fed, kinda a ghetto set up, just sparged the water on top of parchment with holes, kept a inch or two above the bed the whole time @ 170. Worked great , the problem is i got the exact same OG as when i double batch sparged. What gives?

9lbs 2 row
1 lbs munich
both the batch sparge and ghetto fly were 1.044, i do have the grain milled at the store for me sooo.....
any comments

Thats funny, i tried this cause i thought it would yield higher efficiency, looks like my results were pretty accurate.
as far as time, yeah i think its a bit slower, but I just set it and forget it, and I have a 5 year old brew assitant that makes the time go by fast
as far as the equation goes, im not real sure whats the best way to measure this, im taking the gravity right brefore i pitch, and total volume of wort in the fermenter, this gives me efficiency of 66%, i guess this is actualy to the fermenter efficiency and not an accurate measure of the extraction, right?

side note i guess im gonna buy a mill, this seems to be the best way to control your extraction of sugar

It's hard to beat a double batch sparge for lauter efficiency. A really well done fly sparge can do better, but if you run off too fast and/or have any channeling, you will likely do worse.

A single batch sparge will get you about 9 percentage points higher lauter efficiency than no-sparge, for equal grain bills and equal pre-boil volume. A double batch sparge will get you about 3 - 3.5 percentage points more than a single batch sparge. And a triple batch sparge will get you about 1.5 additional percentage points..

The chart below shows how efficiency varies with sparge step count, grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio, and grain absorption rate. The solid lines represent typical MLT performance which has a grain absorption of about 0.12 gal/lb. The broken lines show the effect of aggressively squeezing the grain mass to reduce absorption after each run-off (BIAB'ers can squeeze the bag, trickier to do in a traditional MLT.)



Brew on

 

[Shawn0522]

Why is this a problem?

Asking this questions is like asking
- iPhone / Android
- Ales / Lagers
- OJ with Pulp / without
- Butter side up / Butter side down
- Xbox / Playstation

You get the point.

No body ever puts butter side down. Thats just crazy!

 

[doug293cz]

I started with batch sparge but switched to fly sparge when I built my recirculating system. I got about 8 point efficiency bump but that could be from switching from rectangular cooler with a braid to a full false bottom MLT.

Also this was for a slow run off from the batch sparge. I know Denny says it can run off as fast as you can after vorloff but in my system I got about a 10 point efficiency improvement by batch sparging slowly (went from about 60% to about 70%) for higher gravity beers..

I don't really see any difference in time between batch and fly sparging regardless of runoff speed since it takes me a certain amount of time to get from mash temps to a boil. I do 11 gallon batches (13-14 gal pre boil) on natural gas and takes about 45 minutes to reach a boil. I start heating the BK when I have about 3 gallons collected and when I finish the 60 minute total sparge the kettle is just about at a boil.

The efficiency bump when moving to the recirculating system is more likely due to increased conversion efficiency than improved lauter efficiency. The recirculation helps break up the gelatinized layer on the grit surfaces, exposing more endosperm to the water faster to speed up additional gelatinization, which is the rate controlling step in the saccharification process. If conversion is 100%, you can't get an 8 percentage point improvement in lauter efficiency from fly sparging vs. single batch sparge, unless you over sparge.

If you get higher efficiency by doing a slow batch sparge than a fast batch sparge, then your conversion is incomplete at the "end" of your mash. The increased efficiency is because conversion continued during the slow sparge time (you effectively lengthened your mash time.) Your mash efficiency went up because your conversion efficiency got better, rather than getting higher lauter efficiency. The large improvement you saw with your recirculating system is further evidence that your conversion was incomplete with your previous process.

The kinetics of batch sparging are well understood, and as long as conversion is complete before your first run-off, and you mix the mash adequately prior to run-off, there is no chemical or physical effect that will increase efficiency by running off slower. This is different than fly sparging where slower run-off allows better diffusion of the extract into the sparge water, as well as reducing the potential/degree of channeling.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Correct. You need to measure your water and grains accurately, and then measure the volume and gravity after the mash and before the boil. This will tell you your Mash Efficiency. I recommend reading up on it. There are other factors to account for like deadspace in the tun and/or hoses, etc.

Grain crush has a big impact up to a certain point, but so does pH, time, temperature, process (stirring) etc.

You have to measure your pre-boil gravity to calculate mash efficiency.

You can calculate mash efficiency equally well based on post boil SG and post-boil volume. Mash efficiency is the ratio of the weight of extract in the boil kettle to the weight of potential extract in the grain. Unless you add sugar during the boil, the weight of extract in the BK does not change during the boil (unless you boil-over/spill a lot during the boil.)

The difficulty with using pre-boil measurements to calculate mash efficiency is getting an accurate measurement of pre-boil SG, especially when sparging. The wort tends to stratify in the BK, and it is very difficult to homogenize the wort. Even aggressive stirring of the wort may not homogenize it (I have observed this personally.) You have to use something like a paint mixer on a drill to insure adequate mixing.

All measurements need to be accurate, as the error in the efficiency calculated will be larger than the error in your least accurate measurement.

Brew on

 

[eric19312]

The efficiency bump when moving to the recirculating system is more likely due to increased conversion efficiency than improved lauter efficiency. The recirculation helps break up the gelatinized layer on the grit surfaces, exposing more endosperm to the water faster to speed up additional gelatinization, which is the rate controlling step in the saccharification process. If conversion is 100%, you can't get an 8 percentage point improvement in lauter efficiency from fly sparging vs. single batch sparge, unless you over sparge.

Interesting idea on the slow vs fast run off. I tried doing iodine tests but couldn't ever find the right tincture and dont think the results with iodophor were all that clear. However I was always doing 60-90 minute mashes between 148-156F. Kept the cooler insulated and stirred it well. End of mash was well within sacc rest range.

I never claimed the 8% bump was from the change from batch to fly sparging. I suspect it had to do with changing to vastly improved lauter geometry. My rectangular cooler was one of those coleman extreme 77 quart jobs. The bazooka tube (sorry i said braid) on the drain was about 12" long, barely covered 1/3 of the bottom of the cooler in a single line down the middle. I think getting efficiency in the low 70s with this configuration was surprising. My new MLT is a 15 gallon kettle with a full false bottom from Jaybird. Probably batch sparging in this would work just fine with the 2-3% reduction mentioned before. But... it doesnt matter because I still can't bring 14 gallons of wort to a rolling boil any faster so might as well fly sparge.

 

[doug293cz]

Interesting idea on the slow vs fast run off. I tried doing iodine tests but couldn't ever find the right tincture and dont think the results with iodophor were all that clear. However I was always doing 60-90 minute mashes between 148-156F. Kept the cooler insulated and stirred it well. End of mash was well within sacc rest range.

I never claimed the 8% bump was from the change from batch to fly sparging. I suspect it had to do with changing to vastly improved lauter geometry. My rectangular cooler was one of those coleman extreme 77 quart jobs. The bazooka tube (sorry i said braid) on the drain was about 12" long, barely covered 1/3 of the bottom of the cooler in a single line down the middle. I think getting efficiency in the low 70s with this configuration was surprising. My new MLT is a 15 gallon kettle with a full false bottom from Jaybird. Probably batch sparging in this would work just fine with the 2-3% reduction mentioned before. But... it doesnt matter because I still can't bring 14 gallons of wort to a rolling boil any faster so might as well fly sparge.

I'm not a fan of the iodine test. To be valid you must sample the grits (cause that's where any unconverted starch will be), and the sampled grits should be crushed during the test to make sure the innards of the grits are exposed to the iodine, but most "instructions" for the test say to sample only the wort. A better test of conversion completion is to measure the SG of the wort in the mash. Turns out the maximum SG is pretty much only a function of the mash thickness. Once you hit max SG, the mash is done. Ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency.

For batch sparging, the drain configuration does not affect lauter efficiency, except to the extent that the drain inlet height creates undrainable volume in the MLT (the more undrainable volume, the lower the lauter efficiency.) This is because there are no channeling effects possible if the mash is properly homogenized (well stirred) before the run-off. Drain configuration (a false bottom is part of the drain configuration) is critical for fly sparging because channeling does affect lauter efficiency.

If you like fly sparging better, then that's what you should do. I'm not trying to convince anyone to use any particular process. I just want to present the best information available, so people can make informed decisions. Sparge method (if done properly) doesn't have a huge effect on efficiency. For people with low efficiency, it's more often a low conversion efficiency problem.

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

I'm a 2-sparge batcher.

I'll occasionally fly if I decide to sparge straight from the garden hose into the mash tun (there are times I do this, don't knock it til you try it ) I don't think I saw an improvement on efficiency, but then I can't remember the last time I measured efficiency.

 

[jmark]

Turns out the maximum SG is pretty much only a function of the mash thickness. Once you hit max SG, the mash is done. Ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency.

I'm curious how close folks get to the max shown on his chart. My mash efficiency is usually around the low 80s (brewhouse eff in the mid 70s) and I never come that close to the theoretical max he shows - usually around 90% of it or thereabouts.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm curious how close folks get to the max shown on his chart. My mash efficiency is usually around the low 80s (brewhouse eff in the mid 70s) and I never come that close to the theoretical max he shows - usually around 90% of it or thereabouts.

I routinely get 100% conversion efficiency (within measurement error [I've gotten over 100%, but that's obviously measurement error.]) I usually go with no-sparge, so my lauter and mash efficiency match the chart for whatever my grain absorption is (depends on how well I do at squeezing on a particular day.)

The chart assumes no MLT undrainable volume (typical for BIAB), so if the MLT does have undrainable volume, then lauter efficiency will be lower than this particular chart indicates. The simulator has an input for undrainable volume, but since everyone's is different, you can't make a general purpose chart that includes undrainable volume (although I do have a chart that shows different curves for different undrainable volumes, all for 0.12 gal/lb grain absorption.)

Things that can cause a batch sparger to miss the lauter efficiency shown on the chart:

• Undrainable MLT volume
• Not stirring adequately before each run-off (initial and each sparge run-off)
• Not draining all drainable wort prior to adding sparge water.

So pay attention to the above and you should be able to hit theoretical max lauter efficiency (for your particular process) fairly easily, if you batch sparge. If you fly sparge, it's much more challenging to hit theoretical max lauter efficiency (it's also much more difficult to calculate theoretical max fly sparge efficiency, and no one has a general purpose fly sparge simulation that I know of.)

Brew on

 

[jmark]

I fly sparge (I have a 3 vessel HERMS system that makes it easy to do) so that may make a difference. I've used Kai's efficiency spreadsheet and that typically has me around 93-95% conversion, but I'm never close to 100%.

Still... the numbers are consistent and the beer turns out fine, so probably nothing to be terribly concerned about.

 

[BonsaiBrewer]

thanks for all the info guys, i love this site
ive been brewing for about 4 years, more specific 20 batches or so,and all my knowledge is from reading, you tube and HBT, so im trying to perfect my simple system, on my own, therefore, i might make some small mistakes that affect effiency. heres how i did the fly sparge

mashed @ 130 for 15 mins
infused hot water, got mash to 155, let sit at 155 for 60 mins, about 1.4 qt/lb
mash in 1 gal @170 stired voloffed and started running
introduced fly spargeing right away and ran till kettle full

should i have emptied the tun first, introduced the sparge water, stirred again , vorloffed and then fly?