Tips for the Infamous "super hoppy" IPA/IIPA

[jbaysurfer]

I'm giving primary only one more try but it's just not working for me

Seems arbitrary and dogmatic. To quote you:

Tip #1: Experiment!

To me that means keep an open mind. I'm not the only one who's had great success without secondaries. I have tried both ways, but secondaries for most homebrewers just mean doubling up on one of the most dangerous events in the homebrew process, racking.

But we all have to be comfortable with our own process, so even though this whole thread is about improving each others' processes...that's the last I'll say on the subject. It's not that kind of a thread.

 

[JustLooking]

... one of the most dangerous events in the homebrew process, racking.

hehehe

 

[jbaysurfer]

hehehe

Did I oversell it? LOL...I meant dangerous for the beer and not the brewer. That'd be cleaning your glass carboy.

 

[mtnagel]

This seems like a lot of hops.

I'm saying 3 - 4 oz TOTAL.

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't want to ask for fear of coming off stupid, but yeah a pound and half in dry hop would have been like $30 also!

Anyway, perhaps you should go back and edit that post to avoid confusion.

 

[mtnagel]

And it goes something like this...

Throw IC in @ 20m to KO. Add 15m hops @ 15m. Add whirlfloc @ 10m. Remove IC and place in sanitized pot at 5m to KO. At KO, kill flame, get a big whirlpool going and chuck hop pellets in and place lid on kettle. Clean up a little and after 5-10 minutes stir hard again, replace lid, and repeat a few times for 30 minutes total. (temps stay OVER 190F during the hopstand) Remove lid and use IC and chill to pitch temps ASAP. Pour EVERYTHING into the fermenter, pitch yeast, shake, etc.

IMO the lid is pretty critical for trapping the hop volatiles in the wort, in addition I would think hop spiders and hop bags might hinder things.

Thanks much! I've been thinking about it and I have always put in the IC at 15 mins to sanitize it, but I have heard of people just keeping it in starsan until the end of the boil and then putting it in. I see that you are removing yours at the end just to put it in sanitizer. Perhaps the boil kills more bugs, but wouldn't it make sense to just leave it in sanitizer until the end of boil and then drop it in? The temp would immediately drop some too, so that's an added bonus.

 

[Calichusetts]

To me that means keep an open mind. I'm not the only one who's had great success without secondaries. I have tried both ways, but secondaries for most homebrewers just mean doubling up on one of the most dangerous events in the homebrew process, racking.

But we all have to be comfortable with our own process, so even though this whole thread is about improving each others' processes...that's the last I'll say on the subject. It's not that kind of a thread.

Agreed...I went to primary and loved the ease of it. I actually think the experiment for me will be going back to the secondary. If its the same, then as you state, why risk it. Though the risks may be overblown. Get the tube in horizontal and you will have very little issues. I'm a sanitation freak so I'm not concerned there. I got a few barleywines getting on over a year with no signs of oxidation after I oaked in a secondary, so I'm not too concerned.

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't want to ask for fear of coming off stupid, but yeah a pound and half in dry hop would have been like $30 also!

Anyway, perhaps you should go back and edit that post to avoid confusion.

I'm going to do a little editing right now. Add a few more points on whirlpooling and then send this off to txbrew to make it into an article. Just took my "hop porn" pic so I think it will be nice.

I'm also going to add a little bit more on making a hop tea. Totally forgot to add this and its basically a hop steep post-fermentation. I have like the results in the past but have not done it in quite some time.

 

[Calichusetts]

Updated...added a new "tip" on whirlpool/steep as I feel that needed to be spelled out more. Also talked about my hop tea experiments I used to do about a year ago.

Figure the only thing missing is mash hopping, which I have never done. Any ideas or experiences?

 

[BreezyBrew]

Updated...added a new "tip" on whirlpool/steep as I feel that needed to be spelled out more. Also talked about my hop tea experiments I used to do about a year ago.

Figure the only thing missing is mash hopping, which I have never done. Any ideas or experiences?

Heard from Gordon Strong on a Beersmith interview that it's a waste of time. That's all I know.

 

[zwiller]

Thanks much! I've been thinking about it and I have always put in the IC at 15 mins to sanitize it, but I have heard of people just keeping it in starsan until the end of the boil and then putting it in. I see that you are removing yours at the end just to put it in sanitizer. Perhaps the boil kills more bugs, but wouldn't it make sense to just leave it in sanitizer until the end of boil and then drop it in? The temp would immediately drop some too, so that's an added bonus.

The IC just rests in my 5G pot with a little bit sanitizer in it and is not submerged. I prefer to boil it to know I got it but soaking in sanitizer would work too.

I tried 2 low temp (180F) drop hop stands and I did not like the results at all. I did 30 and 60 minutes. All my testing was done on batches where there were no other additions or dry hop, only a 1lb hop stand. It all depends on the hops and what you want from the hop stand... I want intense hop flavor. Any additional aroma is nice but is not my primary reason for the stand. This is where our tastes/beer is art comes in. I am in the simcoe is cat p*** camp. My favorite hop is centennial. I think different approaches are necessary for different hops. The much talked about Heady Topper apparently has not only simcoe but CTZ in it. These are potent/high coho hops. I can totally see trying to limit any isomerization from these hops and why guys would go low temp hop stand with them. At least, that is my opinion.

 

[logdrum]

I find that if I rely too heavily on late hop additions & forgo the 60-90 min bittering charge, the hop character fades much quicker.

 

[zwiller]

I find that if I rely too heavily on late hop additions & forgo the 60-90 min bittering charge, the hop character fades much quicker.

Can you expound? Fades faster as in aging or on the palate?

 

[logdrum]

As in aging. I know IPAs are meant to be consumed young, and I do my darndest to comply, but the 2 or 3 that I've FWH & 5 min countdown/whirlpool'd have seemed to only hold up weeks, while those that get a 30-50IBU (or more) @ 60 min last longer. I just finished a IIPA from late Jan that had 4 oz @ 60 (with a pound total) that was still everything it started out as.

 

[Calichusetts]

As in aging. I know IPAs are meant to be consumed young, and I do my darndest to comply, but the 2 or 3 that I've FWH & 5 min countdown/whirlpool'd have seemed to only hold up weeks, while those that get a 30-50IBU (or more) @ 60 min last longer. I just finished a IIPA from late Jan that had 4 oz @ 60 (with a pound total) that was still everything it started out as.

Interesting. I bet there is something else going on there as well. I did a hoppy barleywine with my stated hop schedule (FWH, 20, 15, 10, 5, FO, DH) and it was...dare I say it...too hoppy for too long. I was closing in on three months before I could even get a sense of the malt profile.

I did the same thing with a hoppy saison. Granted, I used citra so I knew it would be potent. But I actually thought I didn't control the fermentation temps enough as their was almost no saison characteristics to it. Months later, the hops faded and its was decent, not strong, but decent. The final bottle tasted like a subtle-hopped saison. Lesson learned.

 

[pmcint01]

Tip #5:[/B] Science! Yes, we are talking about mash pH and water profiles specifically. I think there really is a sweet spot for hoppy beers in terms of both of these subjects. For mash pH, I'd say its 5.4 to 5.6. For me personally, its 5.45. I watched the Brew & Chop episode on heady topper and a mash pH range of 5.1 - 5.3 was mentioned for the best environment for hoppy beers. I immediately brewed two beers under 5.2, a couple in the 5.2 range and one 5.35. They were a mess...muted, yeast forward. Someone later email and learned that this was not the correct temp for a pH reading and it translated to basically the standard range. Lesson learned.

Great article! Thanks for posting.

I'm confused here are you saying here about the pH. Were you using the incorrect temp range to check your pH? What are you really saying is the best pH in your experience?

 

[masonsjax]

#6 mentions mash temp, but I think you mean fermentation temp.

I like Pacman yeast for dry hoppy beers, it attenuates a little more and doesn't suffer from those peachy esters you can get under certain conditions with Chico.

Brett Trois or Conan are good choices if you do want some fruity esters that complement the hops.

My experiments have shown that dry hopping works much better at around 70F. I was previously hopping in the low 60s and wasn't happy with the aroma, now I can get awesome aroma from less hops.

Good write up, thanks.

 

[Calichusetts]

Great article! Thanks for posting.

I'm confused here are you saying here about the pH. Were you using the incorrect temp range to check your pH? What are you really saying is the best pH in your experience?

John stated that you want your mash pH between 5.1 -5.3 but he didn't mention the temp at which he took the reading. Apparently it was not at room temp which would translate to 5.4 - 5.6. I didn't know this at the time and did some low mash pH experiments with the pH around 5.2 -5.3 AT ROOM temp. Bad idea of hoppy IPAs.

#6 mentions mash temp, but I think you mean fermentation temp.

I like Pacman yeast for dry hoppy beers, it attenuates a little more and doesn't suffer from those peachy esters you can get under certain conditions with Chico.

Brett Trois or Conan are good choices if you do want some fruity esters that complement the hops.

My experiments have shown that dry hopping works much better at around 70F. I was previously hopping in the low 60s and wasn't happy with the aroma, now I can get awesome aroma from less hops.

Good write up, thanks.

Great catch, edited. I'll start updating in that second post later today as we get more and more info.

 

[zwiller]

As in aging. I know IPAs are meant to be consumed young, and I do my darndest to comply, but the 2 or 3 that I've FWH & 5 min countdown/whirlpool'd have seemed to only hold up weeks, while those that get a 30-50IBU (or more) @ 60 min last longer. I just finished a IIPA from late Jan that had 4 oz @ 60 (with a pound total) that was still everything it started out as.

I did a series of batches where I deliberately took the mash pH higher 5.5-5.6 and out of the typical range (and KO was higher) I found that the hops faded FAST. But mash pH is only part of the equation. If you are not acidifying sparge you might want to try that. I acidify sparge to mash pH (5.4 for IPA) KO wort is 5.2ish. Not saying it's a cure, but it is well known if final beer pH is higher than 4.5 then shelf life (mostly hop character) is affected.

Let me know if you need some help with keeping the taps fresh...

 

[zwiller]

My experiments have shown that dry hopping works much better at around 70F. I was previously hopping in the low 60s and wasn't happy with the aroma, now I can get awesome aroma from less hops.

+1
Also did a bunch of experiments with dryhop temps and concur higher temps worked best for me too.

 

[pickles]

Forgive me for the dumb question but what is KO wort?

 

[BeerGrylls]

I'm assuming he means knock-out.

 

[zwiller]

Yep!

Knockout=post boil

 

[pickles]

Oh boy! I was overthinking that a bunch. Thanks

 

[logdrum]

Interesting. I bet there is something else going on there as well. I did a hoppy barleywine with my stated hop schedule (FWH, 20, 15, 10, 5, FO, DH) and it was...dare I say it...too hoppy for too long. I was closing in on three months before I could even get a sense of the malt profile.



I did the same thing with a hoppy saison. Granted, I used citra so I knew it would be potent. But I actually thought I didn't control the fermentation temps enough as their was almost no saison characteristics to it. Months later, the hops faded and its was decent, not strong, but decent. The final bottle tasted like a subtle-hopped saison. Lesson learned.

True, the entire brew schedule-grain bill, hop choice etc needs to be considered. That above mentioned IIPA was actually 4 oz. (2 Warrior 2 Chinook) @ 90 min, not 60 : ) I prefer a decent bite in my IPAs & have actually been knocked down competition points for being too smooth.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[logdrum]

I did a series of batches where I deliberately took the mash pH higher 5.5-5.6 and out of the typical range (and KO was higher) I found that the hops faded FAST. But mash pH is only part of the equation. If you are not acidifying sparge you might want to try that. I acidify sparge to mash pH (5.4 for IPA) KO wort is 5.2ish. Not saying it's a cure, but it is well known if final beer pH is higher than 4.5 then shelf life (mostly hop character) is affected.



Let me know if you need some help with keeping the taps fresh...

I'm always within .01 or .02 of 5.4 pH for the mash, and I've been acidifying my sparge to 6 pH, perhaps I'll try a bit lower. I honestly haven't ever checked my KO wort pH! Next brew!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[The_Glue]

As an european brewer, my US/NZ aroma hops are going through at least like 3 warehouses before they are shipped to me. A lot of the times the LHBS repackages larger packages into smaller 1-5 ounce packs. While the larger packages were probably stored/packaged properly by the US/NZ seller, the LHBS puts them into small plastic boxes and similar things (no vacuum or CO2) and at best store them in a normal fridge, not a freezer.

Do you guys think it would be better for me to buy hops from the US sellers and get them shipped to me via USPS? That means around 2-3 weeks of shipping.

 

[pickles]

You should buy from LabelPeelers.com. They sell all their hops in original packages from Hop Union, always under vacuum. I understand they make shipping overseas a breeze. I bought from them tons of times and almost always they've thrown in extra hops, sometimes a few ounces, but once or twice I got a random pound of last seasons hops for free! Sign up for their newsletter and it'll alert you of deals they have all the time. The last sale, ended last night unfortunately, was 20% off everything in the store and buy one get one free on pounds of Amarillo pellets! Needless to say they got $125 from me.

 

[The_Glue]

You should buy from LabelPeelers.com. They sell all their hops in original packages from Hop Union, always under vacuum. I understand they make shipping overseas a breeze. I bought from them tons of times and almost always they've thrown in extra hops, sometimes a few ounces, but once or twice I got a random pound of last seasons hops for free! Sign up for their newsletter and it'll alert you of deals they have all the time. The last sale, ended last night unfortunately, was 20% off everything in the store and buy one get one free on pounds of Amarillo pellets! Needless to say they got $125 from me.

They can't ship to my country

edit: i found some who can

 

[Calichusetts]

Otter Marris/Amarillo IIPA in the books as of Friday night.

First time using my new LHBS grain mill, very nervous about changes I could get from the system. Double crushed it and still was worried about it but I hit my OG, 1 point over.

Caramelized 1 cup of first runnings as I like the results in IPAs/IIPAs with no crystal/caramel. Slight hint of sweetness but nothing residual. Volume numbers gave me a 90 minute boil to the minute. Here is a nice breakdown the of the recipe:

OG: 1.083
SRM: 8.1

Marris Otter: 88%
Flaked Wheat: 7%
Rice hulls (Don't normally calculate this in my grain bill, threw off my mash temp for a few minutes too): 3%
Brown Sugar: 2%

Hop Schedule:
FWH: 26 IBU
20-5 minute additions: 41 IBU
Flameout/steep: 11 IBU

Don't really like beersmith for flameout/steep additions and IBUs but followed my own tips...about 1/3 of hops in the boil, and 2/3 after. Took 75% of my POST boil hops and threw them in at flameout. Put the pot in the sink with just some cold water to bring it down to sub-180 in about 15 minutes. Removed it and added the remaining and let is sit for 20.

Chill, bubbling away as we speak. High krausen has already peaked and its chugging away but settling down. I'll wait for krausen to drop completely, then give it a week and start dry hopping.

 

[JohnSand]

Thank you all for a great thread. I followed a link here from another hop discussion. My APA and IPA could use a bit more hop. I do notice that the last few bottles filled, containing some hop residue, have a wonderful flavor and aroma. That supports the idea of bigger dry hops.
But mostly I'm posting to subscribe.

 

[mtnagel]

I can't remember what was said in this thread, but this is what I've found to get the most hop punch:

- Up the sulfate level. I've done up to 400 ppm, but that high might not be necessary. >200 ppm is probably good enough.
- Use a hop stand. My method is to cool to ~180, remove the immersion chiller, add the hops loose, stir and cover. Open the lid and stir every five minutes for around 30 mins.
- Use multiple dry hops. Preferably the last one in the keg (and maybe at room temp; I haven't done this enough to know if the room temp matters).
- It's probably not necessary, but I love using hop extracts. I think they are great because you avoid so much hop matter in your kettle and fermentor and less wort is sucked up by the hop pellets.
- Keg before 2 weeks and start drinking when it's carbed for a fresh IPA.