Tips for a high OG D240 candi syrup quad

[Remos112]

Hello everybody, I am planning to do a single malt d240 quad next week to see how the D240 really shines through and I had this recipe in mind:
8000 Grams Pilsener malt 60 min @68C

90 minute boil since it is Pilsener.
23 grams Challenger 60 min
8 grams Saaz 3 min
8 grams Challenger 3 min
A bathtub of Wyeast 1762 to ferment it.

I already found some tips for getting a good result for a high og beer but I am hoping you have some things I might have missed.

I decided I will do a thinner than usual mash, and I also lowered the efficiency in beer smith to 70% ( I usually get 80-ish).
This gives me a est OG 1.102 FG 1.020 giving me a 11% ABV.

I also understand that it is better to let the pilsener ferment first and add the candisugar a few days/weeks in as soon as fermentation slows down.

To get the yeast happy I will start at 20c and will increase the temperature in the following days up to 24c, I am hoping this will also gives me as much funkiness as possible.

I have no problems storing this beer for year or so as I understand it might take some time to mature.

Did I miss anything? Does anybody have some additional tips? I would love to hear it.
Thanks in advance.
Remi

 

[Remos112]

Forgot to mention the entire mash will be recirculated with a pump, this helped my efficiency greatly in the past.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

A bathtub of Wyeast 1762 to ferment it...

To get the yeast happy I will start at 20c and will increase the temperature in the following days up to 24c, I am hoping this will also gives me as much funkiness as possible.

1762 is the wrong yeast if you're looking for funky, Rochefort got a new yeast from the Palm yeastbank in the 1960s and (assuming 1762 is the same as WLP540) it turns out to be a POF- (non-phenolic) British yeast related to Ringwood and Bedford.

It's a nice yeast, but you want a different one if you're looking for traditional Flemish-funky.

Also, you don't mention what oxygenation you're giving the yeast, and it would appreciate some nutrients - even a small scoop of old yeast at flameout would help.

 

[Remos112]

1762 is the wrong yeast if you're looking for funky, Rochefort got a new yeast from the Palm yeastbank in the 1960s and (assuming 1762 is the same as WLP540) it turns out to be a POF- (non-phenolic) British yeast related to Ringwood and Bedford.

It's a nice yeast, but you want a different one if you're looking for traditional Flemish-funky.

Also, you don't mention what oxygenation you're giving the yeast, and it would appreciate some nutrients - even a small scoop of old yeast at flameout would help.

Thanks for your reply!
I just happen to have some huge jars of 1762 laying around and I use this strain for my Leffe and Kwak clones and quite like the flavour it gives me. Would you have any suggestion for a funkier alcohol tolerant strain?
As for yeast nutrition, I forgot to mention I use wyeast yeast nutrition in every brew, about the oxygenation, the plan was to splash it heavily. I also might have a little pond air pump lying around, but I'm not sure if this is a food safe solution?
Ideally would be pure O2, but I don't have that lying around.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

It depends on what you mean by "funky". Forgive me for being presumptuous, but if you are from the Netherlands, English may not be your first language, so do you mean funky, like Brettanomyces flavors (leather, sweat, tobacco), phenols (spice, clove, pepper), or esters (berries, pears, banana)?

My personal yeast preference is 3787 (trappist high gravity) for nice phenols and ester balance. It took a similar recipie (pils, 2 row, and 3# D180) from 1.090 to 1.008 in about 10 days (using a "bathtub" sized starter ).

Pure O2 has made a noticeable improvement on my big beers in terms of aggressive fermentation.

 

[Remos112]

It depends on what you mean by "funky". Forgive me for being presumptuous, but if you are from the Netherlands, English may not be your first language, so do you mean funky, like Brettanomyces flavors (leather, sweat, tobacco), phenols (spice, clove, pepper), or esters (berries, pears, banana)?

My personal yeast preference is 3787 (trappist high gravity) for nice phenols and ester balance. It took a similar recipie (pils, 2 row, and 3# D180) from 1.090 to 1.008 in about 10 days (using a "bathtub" starter ).

Pure O2 has made a noticeable improvement on my big beers in terms of aggressive fermentation.

Forgive me for being presumptuous, no pun taken, English indeed is my second language. I meant funky as in a lot of esters/fruityness, some phenols would be welcome too but mostly some sweet ester is what I would like in this ABV bomb.

I will look into what a pure o2 setup would cost me, but I have a feeling I am in for a shock on that one. Thanks!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'd repeat the question - are you looking for the "funk" of Brettanomyces or the phenolics of eg a saison type yeast?

I'm not really into the really hardcore Belgian stuff so don't have much experience of brewing those kinds of beers, but supposedly de Struise use Fermentis T-58 in beers like Pannepot which is not a bad benchmark, although it's not a particularly phenolic strain. Otherwise, maybe something like WLP530/3787, WLP545 or WLP550/3522?

The average Dutch person speaks better English than half the native speakers IME... The weird thing is when you find natives of the Low Countries speaking Flemish with what sounds like an English accent, but is just how they speak Flemish.

 

[Remos112]

A 1-use 1l 110bar 02 canister is 20 euro's here, this seems rediculousy steep! For 17,95 however My LBS sells an airpump with 0.2 micron inlet filter and a ceramic bubbling stone, think I might go that route!

 

[IslandLizard]

Are you friends with a welding shop or know a welding hobbyist nearby? They would probably have an oxygen tank. Maybe you can take the fermentor there or borrow the tank and regulator for a day.

If you pump air through a stone for an hour, moving it around a bit, you'd get close to 7-8 ppm, about the maximum for air. 12-24 ppm (with pure oxygen) would be better but it comes with a hefty price. With that small single use O2 canister you'd also need the special valve (it's not a regulator) that fits on top. They can oxygenate 10-20 (21 liter) batches per tank, as long as you unscrew and remove that valve after each use. They tend to leak tenaciously.

Make sure that yeast is as viable as can be. She's got a lot of work to do.

I always wait with adding the sugar syrup until the fermentation slows down, say when it's about 50-70% done, not critical. If you're adding a lot, do 2 additions, a day or 2 apart.

 

[Remos112]

Are you friends with a welding shop or know a welding hobbyist nearby? They would probably have an oxygen tank. Maybe you can take the fermentor there or borrow the tank and regulator for a day.

If you pump air through a stone for an hour, moving it around a bit, you'd get close to 7-8 ppm, about the maximum for air. 12-24 ppm (with pure oxygen) would be better but it comes with a hefty price. With that small single use O2 canister you'd also need the special valve (it's not a regulator) that fits on top. They can oxygenate 10-20 (21 liter) batches per tank, as long as you unscrew and remove that valve after each use. They tend to leak tenaciously.

Make sure that yeast is as viable as can be. She's got a lot of work to do.

I always wait with adding the sugar syrup until the fermentation slows down, say when it's about 50-70% done, not critical. If you're adding a lot, do 2 additions, a day or 2 apart.

No wolders that I know of, but I ordered the pump so this will have to do for now.
Do I really need to aireate it for an entire hour? That seems awefully long.

I am adding 2 -16lbs pouches or 930 Grams, so yeah quite a bit. I will add it in 2 stages then, should I aerrate in between additions or would this be overkill?
Thanks so far!

 

[troglodytes]

The last Belgian dark strong I did I used 3# of D-180 and added it to the boil and had no problems. I did a very large starter for WLP530 which gives a perfect amount of those Belgian flavors you want and really helps accentuate the flavor of the candi syrup. Tons of plum, dark stone fruit. I was also sure to add yeast nutrient. Its the only time I have ever done so, and it seems to have worked because mine went from 1.092 to 1.012 in just over 2 weeks.

I took my hints from the below post found in the Westvleteren 12 recipe. Tons of great tips. Within the "Fermentation" section of that post, I followed the CSI temp schedule to a tee and it worked out perfect.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ne-multiple-award-winner.500037/#post-6485908

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I meant funky as in a lot of esters/fruityness, some phenols would be welcome too but mostly some sweet ester is what I would like in this ABV bomb.

That is what I thought from the totality of your post. "Funky" usually refers to sour-type beers (brett, lacto, pedio beers). Estery is fruity, phenols are spciy. You are not looking for a "funky" quad. You are looking for a fruity/estery quad. 1762 is a relatively clean yeast (per its description). 1214 would work, but I love 3787.

Honestly, make a choice and report back. I've used 3787 in a tripel, a quad, and a wit, and been very happy with the results.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

For the record I've used 1762 several times for Belgium Quads and love it as is. In addition tho, I've done both sweet and tart cherry additions. The tart cherries will give it a sour-ish flavor. I was very surprised how much a sour it seemed like. Just a suggestion.

 

[IslandLizard]

No wolders that I know of, but I ordered the pump so this will have to do for now.
Do I really need to aireate it for an entire hour? That seems awefully long.

I am adding 2 -16lbs pouches or 930 Grams, so yeah quite a bit. I will add it in 2 stages then, should I aerrate in between additions or would this be overkill?
Thanks so far!

The aquarium type aeration stones are quite coarse, large pores, so you get relatively larger air bubbles. You can't over-aerate with air, so yeah, I'd give it an hour. Move that stone around a bit on the bottom from time to time, so the bubbles don't stay in the same area. You should get some foam which is beneficial (it's like a cap). You could pitch the yeast after 30' of aeration, give it a gentle stir to disperse, then aerate for an additional 30'. I think that's even better.

I didn't see anything mentioned about a yeast starter. How old is that 1762 stash you've got there? It may benefit from a good revitalization.

You can add the syrup all in one go or do it 1 pound each, 2 days apart. 2 pounds is about the max for a single addition into 21 liters. When using a bucket, to prevent lifting the lid, I use a funnel with a piece of hose attached going through the airlock hole (remove grommet). That hose reaches down under the beer level. Then pour in a steady stream without gurgling to prevent air getting sucked in. I often save out some fresh wort and keep it in a mason jar in the fridge to rinse the syrup out. I may give that saved wort another boil first.

NO more aeration after fermentation has started, which occurs about 12-18 hours after pitching! As soon as foamy krausen appears, it's fermenting.
To add some extra O2 you may safely aerate again 6 and 12 hours after pitching, it's still in lag phase. Say aerate again 30' at a time.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

As far as oxygenation. I've learned a simple and effective technique that has never failed for beers above 10% or so. Highest I made was a 12.5% Quad.

1st I brew a 6%er of a similar style to build up a yeast cake. On big beer brew day just after kegging/bottling the 6% and cooling the big beer wort transfer back and forth between sanitized fermenters to oxygenate. Then divide in half into each fermenter so there's plenty of air space. Very important, after 12hrs do the same thing mixing between fermenters and keeping them half full and let ferment out as normal. Never a problem!

 

[Remos112]

I didn't see anything mentioned about a yeast starter. How old is that 1762 stash you've got there? It may benefit from a good revitalization.

The jar is about 6 months old and it is ALOT of yeast approx 800 Billion cells.
The plan was to make a starter, pitch the entire jar, guesstimate how much I need for the quad, and wash the rest for further storage in jars.

 

[IslandLizard]

The jar is about 6 months old and it is ALOT of yeast approx 800 Billion cells.
The plan was to make a starter, pitch the entire jar, guesstimate how much I need for the quad, and wash the rest for further storage in jars.

Please use a yeast calculator like HomeBrewDad's, YeastCalc, or Mr.Malty, and fiddle around with the variables. Dumping half a liter of (half year old) yeast slurry into 1.5 liters of starter wort is not going to work well for yeast propagation and overall yeast vitality. That 6 months old slurry has only 30% viability.

You'd need a minimum of 400 billion very healthy cells for that beer, better to use more, it's a strong beer, many cells will die off from alcohol poisoning on their bingy Quad trip.
I'd say make two, 2 liter starters, 150ml of slurry in each. Depending on agitation method that should yield you 400-600 billion cells. Cold crash, decant, and pitch both new slurries. Or use one, larger vessel to propagate the yeast. Two 1 Gallon jugs or a small carboy. A 6-10 liter carboy would be excellent.

Or follow the method @PianoMan uses, a small beer being the yeast incubator for the large kahuna.

 

[Remos112]

Thanks for all the replies
I had about 600Billion cells in mind.
I rechecked my brewing logs and yeast is actually from februari.
I always use the brewersfriend yeast starter calculator.
It says "Yeast is 90 days old, the viability is estimated at 37%."

Looks like indeed I need a pretty serious starter for this beast.
Thanks for all the suggestions, I'll let you'll know how it turns out.

 

[Remos112]

Received my aeration rig today and I made a 3l starter with 250grams of DME decided to aerrate it with the pump as my stir plate died recently. The plan is to decant wednesday and add 2,5 liters water and 250 grams dme. This should get the desired 600BL cells I need. I will update as soon as I have results

 

[IslandLizard]

Excellent!
Bubbling air through a starter sounds like a great idea. Providing both O2 and agitation. Just make sure the whole setup stays sanitary.
A drop of Fermcap-S or other food grade defoamer may help to prevent excessive foaming from the bubbling.

Not sure if you can heat or boil the ceramic stone, it may fall apart when heated or boiled.
I guess you could rinse it off and keep under Starsan or other sanitizer?

 

[Remos112]

Excellent!
Bubbling air through a starter sounds like a great idea. Providing both O2 and agitation. Just make sure the whole setup stays sanitary.
A drop of Fermcap-S or other food grade defoamer may help to prevent excessive foaming from the bubbling.

Not sure if you can heat or boil the ceramic stone, it may fall apart when heated or boiled.
I guess you could rinse it off and keep under Starsan or other sanitizer?

It is foaming like crazy and already forming krausen so I think it might work pretty well!
I bought the kit from my LBS, it has an 0.2 micron filter in the airhose to keep the air to the stone sanitary and the instructions said I could boil the ceramic stone, or just keep it in starsan solution. It also said to NOT use Oxicleaner because that would corrode it away. .They also have a Stainless steel "Stone" to replace it if I want to upgrade in the future. All in all looks like I might have some rocket fuel in a couple of weeks. I will keep this thread updated as soon as I got news!

 

[IslandLizard]

If you can find that Fermcap defoamer, or something like it, you can keep it running longer without the foam spilling out. Before I had a stir plate I lost half my yeast to the countertop on several occasions, and always overnight. Like 4 times from the same (Belgian yeast) starter.

Good to hear you can at least boil it. Boiling will kill most bacteria, but may not replace all the wort that got inside the pores. Keeping it under Starsan will help prevent nasties from growing in there. You could try sucking Starsan through the stone using a 100ml syringe on the shaft or tubing, then expelling it. That back and forth motion will clean a lot of those channels out. Then store it under Starsan.

The stainless aeration/oxygenation/carbonation stones are very common here, around $5-14 depending on where you get them. The 2 micron ones are for air pumps, the 0.5 micron ones for pressurized tanks. The air pumps can't overcome the resistance of the 0.5 micron pores. I clean them by pushing Starsan through with CO2. I also store them under Starsan. They never get dried.

Why would you have rocket fuel in a few months? Slow and steady is key!

Control the ferm temps closely and it won't be an issue. For fermentations that can be extreme, I prefer to stick my buckets inside a plastic tub or cooler filled with water, thus creating a large water jacket. The huge heat sink stabilizes the ferm temps very well. I sometimes stick a probe (inside a thermowell) inside the ferm bucket to read the temps in the center, for feedback purposes, not controlling anything directly. I add 1, 2 or 4 frozen water bottles 1 or 2 times a day to cool it down, while the dual thermostatic controller (STC-1000) turns on a small aquarium heater if it needs to warm up. But for most routine fermentations a controlled fridge or freezer works great too, as long as the temp probe reads and reacts accurately to the actual beer temp.

Yes, please keep us posted. We're all curious!

Good luck!

 

[Remos112]

If you can find that Fermcap defoamer, or something like it, you can keep it running longer without the foam spilling out. Before I had a stir plate I lost half my yeast to the countertop on several occasions, and always overnight. Like 4 times from the same (Belgian yeast) starter.

Good to hear you can at least boil it. Boiling will kill most bacteria, but may not replace all the wort that got inside the pores. Keeping it under Starsan will help prevent nasties from growing in there. You could try sucking Starsan through the stone using a 100ml syringe on the shaft or tubing, then expelling it. That back and forth motion will clean a lot of those channels out. Then store it under Starsan.

The stainless aeration/oxygenation/carbonation stones are very common here, around $5-14 depending on where you get them. The 2 micron ones are for air pumps, the 0.5 micron ones for pressurized tanks. The air pumps can't overcome the resistance of the 0.5 micron pores. I clean them by pushing Starsan through with CO2. I also store them under Starsan. They never get dried.

Why would you have rocket fuel in a few months? Slow and steady is key!

Control the ferm temps closely and it won't be an issue. For fermentations that can be extreme, I prefer to stick my buckets inside a plastic tub or cooler filled with water, thus creating a large water jacket. The huge heat sink stabilizes the ferm temps very well. I sometimes stick a probe (inside a thermowell) inside the ferm bucket to read the temps in the center, for feedback purposes, not controlling anything directly. I add 1, 2 or 4 frozen water bottles 1 or 2 times a day to cool it down, while the dual thermostatic controller (STC-1000) turns on a small aquarium heater if it needs to warm up. But for most routine fermentations a controlled fridge or freezer works great too, as long as the temp probe reads and reacts accurately to the actual beer temp.

Yes, please keep us posted. We're all curious!

Good luck!

Rocket fuel as in high abv beer! I won’t Be drinking it anytime soon, Will let it mature as long as it needs. As far as temperature control, I have build a fermentation fridge controlled by an inkbird an heated by a ceramic lizard heater , all should be smooth sailing once in there! Once again thanks for all te advice ! Cheers?

 

[Remos112]

The fermcap sounds like an idea, but I don't think you can get it in Europe

This is a 5 liter flask and I had to pull the plug on the pump, foaming like crazy!

Yeast cake after settling.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The fermcap sounds like an idea, but I don't think you can get it in Europe

You just need something with simeticone/simethicone in it, it's a common ingredient in pills for settling stomach gas for instance. Apparently there's some versions for infants that comes in liquid form, which would be better as they wouldn't have the carbonates etc of pills. But I use some pills I already had, that I'd bought from a supermarket.

 

[Remos112]

So today was my big day and wow, it sure is challenging brewin a beer this big, milled the grains yesterday and wow that took a while.
Also the mash tun was mighthy full! At some point I was afraid it wouldn't fit but with 30L of volume it held!

Barely though, this wash one full mash!
It worked though and I got 70% efficiency, I usually get 80%+ but with a beer this big I shouldn't complain.
The boil went excellent, and so did the cooling, aerated for an hour, pitched the yeast at 30 minutes and it is bubbling happily away.

highest I have ever seen my hydrometer go for sure! I will update as the fermentation goes on. But this should be one seriously heavy abv beer if all goes well. Should I consider champagne yeast or similar at bottling? I am kinda worried the yeast would be so exhausted after this they won't carbonate my beer anymore.

 

[Remos112]

Update:
The fermentation was quite wild the first day and I ramped the temperature up to 22 in the following days. and took a reading today. It's at an whopping 1.024 now. Beerfriend says this is 12,69% ABV. I set the thermostat to 23C and will let it set for 3 weeks.

Do I have any change the exhausted 1762 yeast is going to carbonate this batch? Or should I use something else to carbonate this beast?
Ps sample smelled incredibly boozy, but amazingly fruity, really looking forward to tasting it once matured.

 

[GRJBowers]

Update:
The fermentation was quite wild the first day and I ramped the temperature up to 22 in the following days. and took a reading today. It's at an whopping 1.024 now. Beerfriend says this is 12,69% ABV. I set the thermostat to 23C and will let it set for 3 weeks.

Do I have any change the exhausted 1762 yeast is going to carbonate this batch? Or should I use something else to carbonate this beast?
Ps sample smelled incredibly boozy, but amazingly fruity, really looking forward to tasting it once matured.

According to Wyeast, the alcohol tolerance of 1762 is 12% so the yeast in the fermenter might not be up to the task. If you made another starter, it might have enough vitality to ferment the priming sugar. According to Brew Like a Monk the Trappists use between 1 and 3 million cells per milliliter (the amount depends on the brewery) to bottle condition.

Alternatively, you could use Lallemand/Danstar CBC-1, a yeast intended for cask and bottle conditioning. It has a listed alcohol tolerance of 12-14%, the datasheet lists the recommended dosage for refermentation. It is however a killer strain meaning it kills other yeasts so you have to be thorough with cleaning anything you use the yeast in.

 

[Remos112]

Alternatively, you could use Lallemand/Danstar CBC-1, a yeast intended for cask and bottle conditioning. It has a listed alcohol tolerance of 12-14%, the datasheet lists the recommended dosage for refermentation. It is however a killer strain meaning it kills other yeasts so you have to be thorough with cleaning anything you use the yeast in.

Sound perfect to me, except the yeast killing part. Cleaning with regular oxiclean and sanitizing with starsan solution would suffice? Or would I need to use bleach or something like that?
Thanks so far!

 

[GRJBowers]

Sound perfect to me, except the yeast killing part. Cleaning with regular oxiclean and sanitizing with starsan solution would suffice? Or would I need to use bleach or something like that?
Thanks so far!

CBC-1 is a S. cerevisiae (normal beer yeast) strain. Whatever will kill normal yeast will kill CBC-1. I would think an oxyclean soak would do the trick.

Edit: Some people use EC-1118 at bottling and it is also a killer strain. I haven't heard of contamination problems. Also this thread briefly discusses CBC-1 specifically.